Robinson Log Times Factor by 1.12?
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Robinson Log Times Factor by 1.12?
I have been told robby air times (if not using a collective switch) can be reduced by factor of 1.12 to take into account time on ground with collective down.
Now I understand this is incorrect.
Can anyone enlighten me?
John
Now I understand this is incorrect.
Can anyone enlighten me?
John
I'm pretty sure the CAOs say log collective up time for the maintenance release except for Robbies, where it's rotors turning time.
Edit - may not be in the CAOs, I know I've read it somewhere but could have been our ops manual maybe - will investigate.
Edit - may not be in the CAOs, I know I've read it somewhere but could have been our ops manual maybe - will investigate.
Last edited by Arm out the window; 27th Mar 2007 at 04:03.
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well, here in the UK the Air Navigation Order states that "flight time" is when 'the aircraft moves under its own power to when the rotors stop'. (ie dont use the rotor brake and you could log more!)
most FTOs log the datcon/hobbs time for their logbook, and knock 0.1 off for for the tech-log maintenance. but this seems to vary from aircraft to aircraft.
just to complicate the matter, later R44's datcon is collective activated. so depending on what the schools policy is..... it gets complicated for instructor invoicing, student invoicing and logbook purposes!
most FTOs log the datcon/hobbs time for their logbook, and knock 0.1 off for for the tech-log maintenance. but this seems to vary from aircraft to aircraft.
just to complicate the matter, later R44's datcon is collective activated. so depending on what the schools policy is..... it gets complicated for instructor invoicing, student invoicing and logbook purposes!
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So a gearbox/drive system, blades and engines aren't considered in use unless in the air? All time should really be logged. This practice of not logging time on the ground is just a way of saving a bit of money. If you can't afford to pay the full costs, maybe you shouldn't be operating a helicopter.
Unfortunately B Sousa has it about right.
Unfortunately B Sousa has it about right.
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"All time should really be logged."
I agree - and if you do it that way, you'll find you get a lot fewer components breaking down!
However, when I were a lad and did a lot of pleasure flying, the accepted practice (from the CAA) was to put down two thirds of the start-to-stop time as the flight time in the tech log. Of course, I used a stopwatch, but I found it wasn't that far out.
Phil
I agree - and if you do it that way, you'll find you get a lot fewer components breaking down!
However, when I were a lad and did a lot of pleasure flying, the accepted practice (from the CAA) was to put down two thirds of the start-to-stop time as the flight time in the tech log. Of course, I used a stopwatch, but I found it wasn't that far out.
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1.12 or not
from http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...302820_001.pdf
The Robinson Helicopter Company - Model R22 Maintenance Manual contained a
section on life-limited components. The section contained a list of ‘fatigue life-limited’
parts that included the main rotor blades, part number A016-2. The table of parts and
their maximum service life was required to be approved by the US Federal Aviation
Authority as part of the continuing airworthiness requirements for the R22 helicopter.
The maximum service life listed for the A016-2 main rotor blade was 2,200 hours.
The same section also contained information on the time-in-service recording for the
helicopter. The section stated that:
meter when recording time in service:
this seems to be saying that maintenance should be 1.12 x collective time (or presumably engine time), is this still what it says?
The Robinson Helicopter Company - Model R22 Maintenance Manual contained a
section on life-limited components. The section contained a list of ‘fatigue life-limited’
parts that included the main rotor blades, part number A016-2. The table of parts and
their maximum service life was required to be approved by the US Federal Aviation
Authority as part of the continuing airworthiness requirements for the R22 helicopter.
The maximum service life listed for the A016-2 main rotor blade was 2,200 hours.
The same section also contained information on the time-in-service recording for the
helicopter. The section stated that:
It is the operator’s responsibility to maintain accurate time-in-service records of the
airframe and life-limited components. An hourmeter activated by engine oil
pressure is standard equipment in the R22 helicopter and is an acceptable means of
recording time-in-service.
The section also contained the following information on the use of a collective hour airframe and life-limited components. An hourmeter activated by engine oil
pressure is standard equipment in the R22 helicopter and is an acceptable means of
recording time-in-service.
meter when recording time in service:
The approved overhaul intervals and the fatigue service lives listed in the
Airworthiness Limitations Section are based on FAA Advisory Circular 20-95
which assume that 10.5% of the operating time will be in autorotation, runup, or
shutdown. Therefore, if an hourmeter activated by the collective control is used to
record the time-in-service, the values recorded must be multiplied by 1.12 when
determining replacement times for the life-limited components, engine and
airframe overhaul periods and other periodic inspection requirements.
Airworthiness Limitations Section are based on FAA Advisory Circular 20-95
which assume that 10.5% of the operating time will be in autorotation, runup, or
shutdown. Therefore, if an hourmeter activated by the collective control is used to
record the time-in-service, the values recorded must be multiplied by 1.12 when
determining replacement times for the life-limited components, engine and
airframe overhaul periods and other periodic inspection requirements.
this seems to be saying that maintenance should be 1.12 x collective time (or presumably engine time), is this still what it says?
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Flight Time
In the UK the CAA are mainly interested in Flight Time hence for an R22 a 2200hr Datcon reading equates to 1964 flight hours (in other words for maintenance purposes which ever is reached first).
How can they differ.
For each & every flight, as warm up & cool down times added together average 0.1 (6mins) summer or winter a commercial ship generally does a lot more short flights i.e. lessons, trial flights, sight seeing etc therefore because of the above it reaches its 2200hr Datcon time first.
Whereas a privateer's ship normally is not up/down up/down as frequently & generally does longer sessions, therefore it follows it will reach its 1964 flight hours of first.
Since March 2006 JAR-FCL 1.001 Definitions, paragraph 2) Flight Time. Clearly States that
The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
In other words Flight Time in any fixed gear chopper is logged as the first time after start up the skids leave the deck to the last time they touch down again before shutdown.
That’s just how it should be (after all, what is flight).
In an R44, as the Datcon also requires the collective to be raised to function, Flight Time & Datcon time as a rule generally coincide (unless you spend a lot of time doing autos).
It is also interesting to note that the R22 maintenance manual does indeed state that if an hour meter activated by the collective is used, one must multiply that figure by 1.12 for correct time in service. However in the R44 maintenance manual no reference to that figure is given other than it is the operator's responsibility to maintain accurate time in service.
Although 236hrs could be at stake here to keep inside the law I guess all owners with (hour meters activated by the collective) should consult their respective authorities for the definitive answer as not only fatigue life's could be effected but your insurance or your life may depend on it.
How can they differ.
For each & every flight, as warm up & cool down times added together average 0.1 (6mins) summer or winter a commercial ship generally does a lot more short flights i.e. lessons, trial flights, sight seeing etc therefore because of the above it reaches its 2200hr Datcon time first.
Whereas a privateer's ship normally is not up/down up/down as frequently & generally does longer sessions, therefore it follows it will reach its 1964 flight hours of first.
Since March 2006 JAR-FCL 1.001 Definitions, paragraph 2) Flight Time. Clearly States that
The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
In other words Flight Time in any fixed gear chopper is logged as the first time after start up the skids leave the deck to the last time they touch down again before shutdown.
That’s just how it should be (after all, what is flight).
In an R44, as the Datcon also requires the collective to be raised to function, Flight Time & Datcon time as a rule generally coincide (unless you spend a lot of time doing autos).
It is also interesting to note that the R22 maintenance manual does indeed state that if an hour meter activated by the collective is used, one must multiply that figure by 1.12 for correct time in service. However in the R44 maintenance manual no reference to that figure is given other than it is the operator's responsibility to maintain accurate time in service.
Although 236hrs could be at stake here to keep inside the law I guess all owners with (hour meters activated by the collective) should consult their respective authorities for the definitive answer as not only fatigue life's could be effected but your insurance or your life may depend on it.
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JAR-FCL 1.001 Definitions, paragraph 2) Flight Time. Clearly States that
The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Flight Time
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.
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FredFri,
in the UK, the situation is complicated regarding Flight Time, my understanding is
as far as licensing is concerned, you can log Rotor Start - Stop in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.001
as far as the ANO is concerned, CAP 393, Section 1, Part 4, Page 12, Para 35(3), "a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped"
ICAO is per JAR-FCL, the ANO is out of line, my company insist we record flight time in accordance with ANO, as it allows them to utilise each pilot a little more before hitting FTL limits.
Regards
CF
in the UK, the situation is complicated regarding Flight Time, my understanding is
as far as licensing is concerned, you can log Rotor Start - Stop in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.001
as far as the ANO is concerned, CAP 393, Section 1, Part 4, Page 12, Para 35(3), "a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped"
ICAO is per JAR-FCL, the ANO is out of line, my company insist we record flight time in accordance with ANO, as it allows them to utilise each pilot a little more before hitting FTL limits.
Regards
CF
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 27th Mar 2007 at 20:23.
....my company insist we record flight time in accordance with ANO, as it allows them to utilise each pilot a little more before hitting FTL limits.
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Billiebob - so why are we all b*ggering about with JAR OPS paperwork and JAR-FCL? 
The CAA has not asked for any specific exemptions to JAR OPS requirements as far as I know, so it would be an interesting argument as to which took precedence in court! I suppose technically the ANO would win, but would it really?
And engineering wise at least, EASA has taken over.
Phil
The CAA has not asked for any specific exemptions to JAR OPS requirements as far as I know, so it would be an interesting argument as to which took precedence in court! I suppose technically the ANO would win, but would it really?
And engineering wise at least, EASA has taken over.
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Disabling the hobbs meter is illeagally modifying the aircraft in the case of Robinson helicopters, If I was purchasing Robinson helicopter and there was evidence of tampering with the hobbs meter, even a wire splice, I would walk away from it. 
Hang on, if the engine(s) are running and the blades are turning, isn't that movement for the purposes of taking off, without this movement it would go nowhere.
If an R22 is lifed at 2200hrs, then my advice to anyone is only fly one up to a maximum of that time (total) and not this extra 0.1 each flightetc. The R22 is not designed to run to 1964 hours. I'm fairly sure Mr R would hate to hear this is happening. I used to work for a company which only paid the pilots flight time, ie 0.1 off each datcon hour! Theft?
Fly safe.
Camp Freddie, do you log flight time as chocks out to shut down? If so, doesn't this leave periods where the a/c is turning and burning on the ground waiting, FTL being used up?
If an R22 is lifed at 2200hrs, then my advice to anyone is only fly one up to a maximum of that time (total) and not this extra 0.1 each flightetc. The R22 is not designed to run to 1964 hours. I'm fairly sure Mr R would hate to hear this is happening. I used to work for a company which only paid the pilots flight time, ie 0.1 off each datcon hour! Theft?
Fly safe.
Camp Freddie, do you log flight time as chocks out to shut down? If so, doesn't this leave periods where the a/c is turning and burning on the ground waiting, FTL being used up?
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Helimutt
as far as the ANO is concerned and probably your FTL scheme, er NO
as far as JAR-FCL 2 and ICAO are concerned, er YES
for your logbook, count Rotor Start to Stop, if you want (ICAO/JAR)
for FTL, we count from first movement to rotor stop (ANO/FTL)
for the tech log, airborne time only.
periods on the ground rotors running after first movement count for the FTL, but not the aircraft.
the trick is to start up then taxi ASAP to pick up passengers, then the FTL clock is running !
a large helicopter company I know at one time banned taxiing to pick up passengers, they always took the passengers to the stationary rotors running aircraft before it moved, also they banned rotors running between flights by making you shut down each time, all to save that bit of FTL at the start of each flight. in this way they calculated they could employ 3 pilots less as they were trying to utilise the 800 hours max a year.
isnt aviation just grrreat
regards
CF
Hang on, if the engine(s) are running and the blades are turning, isn't that movement for the purposes of taking off, without this movement it would go nowhere.
as far as JAR-FCL 2 and ICAO are concerned, er YES
Camp Freddie, do you log flight time as chocks out to shut down? If so, doesn't this leave periods where the a/c is turning and burning on the ground waiting, FTL being used up?
for FTL, we count from first movement to rotor stop (ANO/FTL)
for the tech log, airborne time only.
periods on the ground rotors running after first movement count for the FTL, but not the aircraft.
the trick is to start up then taxi ASAP to pick up passengers, then the FTL clock is running !
a large helicopter company I know at one time banned taxiing to pick up passengers, they always took the passengers to the stationary rotors running aircraft before it moved, also they banned rotors running between flights by making you shut down each time, all to save that bit of FTL at the start of each flight. in this way they calculated they could employ 3 pilots less as they were trying to utilise the 800 hours max a year.
isnt aviation just grrreat
regards
CF
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 28th Mar 2007 at 07:37.
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hey paco,
well they were doing in excess of 500 commercial flights a month, so if it saves just 5 minutes per flight, that is 500 x 5mins x 2 pilots x 12 months = 60000 minutes = 1000 hours, allow another 1000 for rotors running between flights where it is much more than 5 mins per flight, and the flights were starting in the morning and often running back to back, thats 2000 hours = 3 pilots.
if everyones hours are nowhere near FTL max why bother, but when your pilots are bumping limits it really makes a difference !
regards
CF
well they were doing in excess of 500 commercial flights a month, so if it saves just 5 minutes per flight, that is 500 x 5mins x 2 pilots x 12 months = 60000 minutes = 1000 hours, allow another 1000 for rotors running between flights where it is much more than 5 mins per flight, and the flights were starting in the morning and often running back to back, thats 2000 hours = 3 pilots.
if everyones hours are nowhere near FTL max why bother, but when your pilots are bumping limits it really makes a difference !
regards
CF
The issues are complex as the definition of 'flight time' relates to a number important issues - which are not necessarily aligned. The recent proposal for amendment of ICAO Annex 6 Part III (which has now been accepted and will be applicable from later in the year) contains this amendment to the definition of flight time.
Jim
Flight time helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.
Note 1. The State should provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight should be included within the calculation of flight time.
Note 2. This definition is only intended for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.
Note 1. The State should provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight should be included within the calculation of flight time.
Note 2. This definition is only intended for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.