S76 down in Baltic Sea (Now incl NTSB Safety Recommendation)
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The problem is, by saying this, you are in effect accusing the company of manslaughter.
This is very important; I just, in order to give an example, gave a possible but not likely reason for the accident. That's it. If you draw any conclusions based on this that's not my problem. I even pointed out that I don't think that's the case but if someone thinks it might be relevant they should be allowed to express themselves.
Let's go through another example;
Fact: The company has a history of flying with only one pilot even if two were required.
Fact: After the accident, the rescue team found out that one pilot is missing.
Question: why?
cl12pv2s, if you think that there is some sort of accusation in what I just wrote it probably says more about what conclusions you draw. As NickLappos pointed out, we must avoid defamation or slander. I can't speak for what someone else is posting here, but if you accuse me of slandering you are the one guilty of just that.
Needless to say, my thoughts are with everyone involved in the accident and especially the loved ones to the victims. I don't think that the past history of the operator contributed to the accident. The only reason that I speculated about this was to point out that all views should be accepted as long as it's speculation.
I would like to comment the pictures because I'm regularly flying over water with passengers in a medium twin and I have always in my mind the possibility of something like this... I'm sure it would be good for everyone.
But for the moment seems too hot this thread.
Anyway...
Xano: could you please translate
"Näkyykö Eesti-TV:ssä näytetyissä hylkykuvissa lentäjän tyhjä istuin? "
http://www.iltalehti.fi/2005/08/13/paikkatm_uu.jpg
Thanks.
But for the moment seems too hot this thread.
Anyway...
Xano: could you please translate
"Näkyykö Eesti-TV:ssä näytetyissä hylkykuvissa lentäjän tyhjä istuin? "
http://www.iltalehti.fi/2005/08/13/paikkatm_uu.jpg
Thanks.
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I hope i can answer on behalf of Xano:"Näkyykö Eesti-TV:ssä näytetyissä hylkykuvissa lentäjän tyhjä istuin? "
=
Is there an empty pilot's seat in the this picture that Estonian TV shoved about the wreckage?
Happy? Hope that helps your "quality" conversation.
=
Is there an empty pilot's seat in the this picture that Estonian TV shoved about the wreckage?
Happy? Hope that helps your "quality" conversation.
Source: ITAR-TASS
Link: http://www.tass.ru/eng/level2.html?N...8115&PageNum=0
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Estonian witness says helicopter crashed into sea after 2 plops
11.08.2005, 01.12
TALLINN, August 10 (Itar-Tass) - Passenger helicopter crashed into the Baltic Sea after two loud plops that resembled explosions, an Estonian port pilot told the Tallinn-based Channel 2 television.
Matti Ojase, the captain of a port pilot boat, said he was in the area of Rohuneeme wharf east off Tallinn when he heard the two plops coming from the direction of the sea and saw the helicopter falling in a spin into seawater.
Ojase also said he did not notice any traces of smoke or fire.
The Sikorski helicopter belonging to the company Copterline fell into the Gulf of Finland between the Rohumee wharf located in the Tallinn Bay and Najssaar Island Wednesday afternoon.
The disaster that the claimed the lives of fourteen people, including Estonians, Finns and Americans, occurred minutes after the helicopter had taken off from a pad in Tallinn and started towards Helsinki, which lies on the opposite shore of the Gulf.
Toenis Lepp, Copterline’s executive director, said earlier a terrorist act might have been one of the causes of the disaster. He also indicated another two possible versions – bad weather and equipment failure aboard.
Rescue teams managed to locate an object resembling a helicopter on the seabed with the aid of sonar, and underwater footage made by a diver robot confirmed the supposition that it might be the perished Sikorski.
The final answer can be given, however, only after the object is recovered from the sea and taken up to the surface.
Link: http://www.tass.ru/eng/level2.html?N...8115&PageNum=0
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Estonian witness says helicopter crashed into sea after 2 plops
11.08.2005, 01.12
TALLINN, August 10 (Itar-Tass) - Passenger helicopter crashed into the Baltic Sea after two loud plops that resembled explosions, an Estonian port pilot told the Tallinn-based Channel 2 television.
Matti Ojase, the captain of a port pilot boat, said he was in the area of Rohuneeme wharf east off Tallinn when he heard the two plops coming from the direction of the sea and saw the helicopter falling in a spin into seawater.
Ojase also said he did not notice any traces of smoke or fire.
The Sikorski helicopter belonging to the company Copterline fell into the Gulf of Finland between the Rohumee wharf located in the Tallinn Bay and Najssaar Island Wednesday afternoon.
The disaster that the claimed the lives of fourteen people, including Estonians, Finns and Americans, occurred minutes after the helicopter had taken off from a pad in Tallinn and started towards Helsinki, which lies on the opposite shore of the Gulf.
Toenis Lepp, Copterline’s executive director, said earlier a terrorist act might have been one of the causes of the disaster. He also indicated another two possible versions – bad weather and equipment failure aboard.
Rescue teams managed to locate an object resembling a helicopter on the seabed with the aid of sonar, and underwater footage made by a diver robot confirmed the supposition that it might be the perished Sikorski.
The final answer can be given, however, only after the object is recovered from the sea and taken up to the surface.
Happy? Hope that helps your "quality" conversation.
What's your fu***** problem? I can't ask about a text in a picture ?
My god... it's so sad.
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First of all thanks to everybody who have had the time to answer my questions or otherwise commented this accident.
Helsingin Sanomat (mostly reliable source) now reports that the plane has both CVR and FDR that will be flown to US to be analyzed. They quote Effie Lorende Ward from NTSB. What is weird is that the Estonian prosecutors now do not allow that even though they can not read it in Estonia. First of all the reason is because US is the manufacturers home country and secondly because of the distance to be flown.
A preliminary report should come out at 10th of September while the final report should take about a year. Helsingin Sanomat also quote Estonian investigation commission member Tõnu Ader that three floats did not float and nothing indicates that there was any pilot input for the floats nor should the floats operate automatically. I wish someone familiar with S-76 could comment on that. Also now the investigators are not anymore sure if all the passengers had their seatbelts fasten.
To Martin 1234: Your second example ( 1 pilot scenario) is actually something the investigators have been looked at and they believe that there was 2 pilots based on surveillance camera pictures and that both pilots passports have been found. I am sure that passengers of earlier flights have also been asked.
To Aser: Finnrotor.com has a good translation. What I would like to add is that Iltalehti is a tabloid so take it whit a grain of salt what they write. The only reason I posted that site was because of the pictures. What you write is quite interesting at least for me. I would like to know your view. If not on this site please PM me.
To Finnrotor.com: What do you mean by "quality" conversation? After all this is as good as it gets. Many of the posts have been quite good in my opinion. In about a week the media will forget this accident but many of us will never forget it. I don’t have any agenda neither for the company nor against it. All I am interested is to get views from pilots, mechanics etc. to find out what happened. After all I believe that this is the best site for that purpose. I know I should wait for the final report but we are all humans and we all are eager to know what happened. Safe flying.
Helsingin Sanomat (mostly reliable source) now reports that the plane has both CVR and FDR that will be flown to US to be analyzed. They quote Effie Lorende Ward from NTSB. What is weird is that the Estonian prosecutors now do not allow that even though they can not read it in Estonia. First of all the reason is because US is the manufacturers home country and secondly because of the distance to be flown.
A preliminary report should come out at 10th of September while the final report should take about a year. Helsingin Sanomat also quote Estonian investigation commission member Tõnu Ader that three floats did not float and nothing indicates that there was any pilot input for the floats nor should the floats operate automatically. I wish someone familiar with S-76 could comment on that. Also now the investigators are not anymore sure if all the passengers had their seatbelts fasten.
To Martin 1234: Your second example ( 1 pilot scenario) is actually something the investigators have been looked at and they believe that there was 2 pilots based on surveillance camera pictures and that both pilots passports have been found. I am sure that passengers of earlier flights have also been asked.
To Aser: Finnrotor.com has a good translation. What I would like to add is that Iltalehti is a tabloid so take it whit a grain of salt what they write. The only reason I posted that site was because of the pictures. What you write is quite interesting at least for me. I would like to know your view. If not on this site please PM me.
To Finnrotor.com: What do you mean by "quality" conversation? After all this is as good as it gets. Many of the posts have been quite good in my opinion. In about a week the media will forget this accident but many of us will never forget it. I don’t have any agenda neither for the company nor against it. All I am interested is to get views from pilots, mechanics etc. to find out what happened. After all I believe that this is the best site for that purpose. I know I should wait for the final report but we are all humans and we all are eager to know what happened. Safe flying.
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Hi Aser,
Sorry about that, i did not have a problem with your question, but reading this topic is more about "what you can write here and what not", other than talking about this tragic accident. That's what pissed me off, not your question.
This is an international forum and almost everytime there is an accident someone here knows pilot(s), work in the same company etc., so we should be really careful what we write here in the public. Blaming someone or something without any facts is not what we need.
It will be interesting to see what investigators will find. There has been photos of the accident chopper in the Finnish media after it was lifted from the seabed in the morning, and it raises more questions than answers. Machine seems to be in one piece, only (all) mainrotor blades are gone (Media speculates that it was a "nosedive" from 1000 ft). Mainrotor head seems to be in it's place and looks like transmission is still in place (bladefailure has been speculated as a cause of the accident in Finnish media)...
Here is an article from Finnish media ( Helsingin Sanomat) in English, if someone is interested:
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/engli.../1101980583770
Safe flights to all.
Sorry about that, i did not have a problem with your question, but reading this topic is more about "what you can write here and what not", other than talking about this tragic accident. That's what pissed me off, not your question.
This is an international forum and almost everytime there is an accident someone here knows pilot(s), work in the same company etc., so we should be really careful what we write here in the public. Blaming someone or something without any facts is not what we need.
It will be interesting to see what investigators will find. There has been photos of the accident chopper in the Finnish media after it was lifted from the seabed in the morning, and it raises more questions than answers. Machine seems to be in one piece, only (all) mainrotor blades are gone (Media speculates that it was a "nosedive" from 1000 ft). Mainrotor head seems to be in it's place and looks like transmission is still in place (bladefailure has been speculated as a cause of the accident in Finnish media)...
Here is an article from Finnish media ( Helsingin Sanomat) in English, if someone is interested:
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/engli.../1101980583770
Safe flights to all.
Last edited by Finnrotor.com; 13th Aug 2005 at 23:52.
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From the photos I would say that main blade failure is unlikely , if one blade failed the vibes would tear the transmission off its mounts . The housing appeared intact . I would guess from the pictures that the aircraft entered the water at fairly low speed , the windshield seems to be intact . Only speculation of course.
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This message was deleted (see AirSober's below!)
AirSober and I have taken our discussion off the list, as it did not necessarily relate to the topic of this thread.
Happy flying everyone!
cl12pv2s
AirSober and I have taken our discussion off the list, as it did not necessarily relate to the topic of this thread.
Happy flying everyone!
cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 15th Aug 2005 at 14:02.
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I sent a lengthy message here concerning the topic plus communication on this thread on this subject. After reading cl12pv2´s response plus his PM´s I understand his point of view better, and will continue discussing them privately with him instead of this thread. Thus have I deleted the original message.
AS
AS
Having seen Copterline’s name on Rotorhub in the past, I found an archived press release detailing the following:
FARNBOROUGH, U.K., 18 July, 2004 - Finland-based passenger carrier Copterline has exceeded 10,000 hours of Sikorsky S-76C+ operation. This is quite an achievement for a helicopter airline where each flight sector is only 18-minutes, served by two S-76C+ aircraft.
In a striking display of reliability, Copterline’s two S-76C+ aircraft have achieved an overall dispatch rate of 99.7 percent on more than 35,000 flights during the company’s first four years of scheduled helicopter passenger service between Helsinki, Finland and Tallinn, Estonia.
Whatever or whoever ends up taking the blame for this, these are pretty impressive statistics for both the operator and the aircraft alike and I take my hat off to them all.
FARNBOROUGH, U.K., 18 July, 2004 - Finland-based passenger carrier Copterline has exceeded 10,000 hours of Sikorsky S-76C+ operation. This is quite an achievement for a helicopter airline where each flight sector is only 18-minutes, served by two S-76C+ aircraft.
In a striking display of reliability, Copterline’s two S-76C+ aircraft have achieved an overall dispatch rate of 99.7 percent on more than 35,000 flights during the company’s first four years of scheduled helicopter passenger service between Helsinki, Finland and Tallinn, Estonia.
Whatever or whoever ends up taking the blame for this, these are pretty impressive statistics for both the operator and the aircraft alike and I take my hat off to them all.
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Speaking of dispatch rate, didn't the Finnish aviation authority find Copterline to fly below minima?
You can prove anything with statistics - fact remains that half of the fleet have crashed.
You can prove anything with statistics - fact remains that half of the fleet have crashed.
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To Martin 1234: Yes, Copterline was caught of flying under minima once. Captain of that flight got a 6 months suspension for his licence and the co-pilot got a warning from the FAA (as far as I know). And half of their fleet has not crashed. Only half of their fleet of S-76C+ have crashed and we don’t know yet what caused this accident. As far as know the company has 8 choppers left, some of them working as rescue helicopters.
That 99,7% dispatch rate in incredible. Especially considering their timetable. Basically they fly an 18 minutes leg followed by an 18 minutes leg after being on ground 12 minutes(schedule time 20 minutes, flight time 18 minutes). Here’s their schedule: http://www.copterline.com/kopterilen...FI/aikataulut/ . At the moment they don’t fly at the weekends though.
That 99,7% dispatch rate in incredible. Especially considering their timetable. Basically they fly an 18 minutes leg followed by an 18 minutes leg after being on ground 12 minutes(schedule time 20 minutes, flight time 18 minutes). Here’s their schedule: http://www.copterline.com/kopterilen...FI/aikataulut/ . At the moment they don’t fly at the weekends though.
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True, even though I think that you missed the point. The phrase referred to was meant to exemplify the possible irony that could evolve by interpreting statistics biased. In addition to this, the post was partly written with a facetious undertone in order to put all badmouthing on this thread in perspective. I seem to have succeeded even though my underlying intention went unnoticed.
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First off let me say my post has nothing to do with the company in question.
With regard to dispatch reliablity, any operator that gloats on it's dispatch reliablity is normally a company that is not conforming to all standards set out by it respective regulator or maintence directives. Lets be honest, no operator stocks all neccesary parts and unforseen snags can not be predicted. Plus, Sikorsky is not known for its great parts support (no offence Nick).
99.7 % ??
With regard to dispatch reliablity, any operator that gloats on it's dispatch reliablity is normally a company that is not conforming to all standards set out by it respective regulator or maintence directives. Lets be honest, no operator stocks all neccesary parts and unforseen snags can not be predicted. Plus, Sikorsky is not known for its great parts support (no offence Nick).
99.7 % ??
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Remember that they had 2 choppers to do the job that required 1 (excluding maintenance downtime, charters etc.) So if they had problems with one of their chopper they could easily brought another one in. Of course this is only speculation on my part that it ever happened.
According to information received by Helsingin Sanomat, the blades overheated some time ago, as the pilot was taking off. The turbine exhaust gases heated up the blades to such an extent that the rotor-blades began to shake on ascent.
Interesting! The blades had been replaced so were not an factor in the accident but I didn´t know this could happen. Is it because the engines are started with rotors still on the S76?