My convoluted route to ATPL?
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My convoluted route to ATPL?
So I have been flying for about 7 years now and my long term goal is to gain an ATPL by my 40th birthday which is the date that I retire from my current career.
I learnt to fly 3-axis microlights and then after a year I upgraded it to an NPPL(SSEA) which I subsequently upgraded to a LAPL a few years ago. This year I will do a combined LAPL to EASA PPL conversion and Night Rating (10hours total) and next year I plan do an IMC prior to the Apr 2019 cutoff. I will also do an aerobatic rating and formation flying course.
From this point, my route to the ATPL is a little undecided but I am a thinking of then using the IMC and any subsequent IFR hours to get an SEP CBIR using my class 2 medical and with PPL IR TK - my 15 IMC hours would contribute towards the 45hours required. Then a few years after I hope to do ATPL ground school followed by a UPRT and CPL (reduced by 10hours due to having an IR). Then I will do an MEP rating and convert my SEIR to MEIR (5hours course I believe) and hopefully a MCC And JOC. It is my understanding that this route would still result in a frozen ATPL but would cost significantly less due to the 10hr reduction in the IR and CPL and since most of the IR will be done in an SEP.
Am I right in thinking that this would be an acceptable route?
Also would the airlines look at the following unfavourably?
- doing the IR before the CPL
- doing a CBIR rather than the full IR
- not doing the whole IR in an MEP but rather doing it in a SEP and then converting to an MEIR with a 5 hour course
I learnt to fly 3-axis microlights and then after a year I upgraded it to an NPPL(SSEA) which I subsequently upgraded to a LAPL a few years ago. This year I will do a combined LAPL to EASA PPL conversion and Night Rating (10hours total) and next year I plan do an IMC prior to the Apr 2019 cutoff. I will also do an aerobatic rating and formation flying course.
From this point, my route to the ATPL is a little undecided but I am a thinking of then using the IMC and any subsequent IFR hours to get an SEP CBIR using my class 2 medical and with PPL IR TK - my 15 IMC hours would contribute towards the 45hours required. Then a few years after I hope to do ATPL ground school followed by a UPRT and CPL (reduced by 10hours due to having an IR). Then I will do an MEP rating and convert my SEIR to MEIR (5hours course I believe) and hopefully a MCC And JOC. It is my understanding that this route would still result in a frozen ATPL but would cost significantly less due to the 10hr reduction in the IR and CPL and since most of the IR will be done in an SEP.
Am I right in thinking that this would be an acceptable route?
Also would the airlines look at the following unfavourably?
- doing the IR before the CPL
- doing a CBIR rather than the full IR
- not doing the whole IR in an MEP but rather doing it in a SEP and then converting to an MEIR with a 5 hour course
At last someone putting a bit of thought into things! Retiring at 40 -did you make WO1? You mentioned a class 2 medical. Get a class 1 done asap (i think there might be more tests after 40) I'm sure it won't be a problem but it's better to be on the safe side.
As for the route to ATPL, I think convoluted can be better, as it sets you apart from the integrated boys who have nothing to talk about in interviews!
The order of things is personal preference, CPL has the biggest hour limit so it makes sense to do it last IMHO. I think the CBIR is a brilliant thing - 55 hours for an IR is too long anyway. Doing an IRR then 15 hours of 'Actual' and finishing up with 10 hours at an ATO is more beneficial because you can count it all to TT, and 15 hours to PIC. As for the multi, once you've got the IR cracked, you're just adding an engine failure into the mix which is shutdown and securing drills on the go around then finish the test SE. Two IR tests, but cheaper overall.
As for the route to ATPL, I think convoluted can be better, as it sets you apart from the integrated boys who have nothing to talk about in interviews!
The order of things is personal preference, CPL has the biggest hour limit so it makes sense to do it last IMHO. I think the CBIR is a brilliant thing - 55 hours for an IR is too long anyway. Doing an IRR then 15 hours of 'Actual' and finishing up with 10 hours at an ATO is more beneficial because you can count it all to TT, and 15 hours to PIC. As for the multi, once you've got the IR cracked, you're just adding an engine failure into the mix which is shutdown and securing drills on the go around then finish the test SE. Two IR tests, but cheaper overall.
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Thanks, I am an officer and will retire as a major. Luckily I am on the old pension which means I can retire with a pension at 37 (5 years time) but due to all the cuts in the pension scheme I won't get that much each year so it makes sense to do three more years which has a significant effect on my pension salary and will help cushion the blow of the initial reduction in salary that will come with a career choice. It will also mean that I will have an income even I am unemployed for a while - plus it will boost my salary for the rest of my life so worth hanging on for. So instead I will leave on my 40th birthday hopefully with a fATPL in my hand and circa 750hrs. I am hoping that being 40 rather than 37 won't hinder me too much when applying for a FO position as I will still have 25years work left in me!
I don't plan on getting my CPL, ME, MEIR and MCC until my last 3 years so I am not paying for the revals and I can use resettlement grants to fund it with no debts. I do however want to furnish my PPL with as many ratings as possible so I can gain additional experience (such as IFR and aeros) but also to reduce the cost of the ATPL courses hence my desire to do an SEIR soon.
I am thoroughly loving the modular slow time route as it is interesting and an adventure. It has seen me own a couple of vintage taildraggers, gain a few hundred hours on Tailwheel aircraft and fly some really interesting aircraft with interesting people. I have made some great friends and useful contacts by going this route and like to think it will help me stand out from the crowd a it as hopefully will my military service. I am also a tug pilot at a couple of gliding clubs to further build hours which I love and again it is another chapter in what is my unique, fun and thoroughly satisfying route to the commercial flight deck. I would wholeheartedly recommend the modular route to anyone with a long term plan, a family or just someone looking for an adventure rather than a standard experience.
So the airlines don't care how I get the MEIR just that I have one?
I don't plan on getting my CPL, ME, MEIR and MCC until my last 3 years so I am not paying for the revals and I can use resettlement grants to fund it with no debts. I do however want to furnish my PPL with as many ratings as possible so I can gain additional experience (such as IFR and aeros) but also to reduce the cost of the ATPL courses hence my desire to do an SEIR soon.
I am thoroughly loving the modular slow time route as it is interesting and an adventure. It has seen me own a couple of vintage taildraggers, gain a few hundred hours on Tailwheel aircraft and fly some really interesting aircraft with interesting people. I have made some great friends and useful contacts by going this route and like to think it will help me stand out from the crowd a it as hopefully will my military service. I am also a tug pilot at a couple of gliding clubs to further build hours which I love and again it is another chapter in what is my unique, fun and thoroughly satisfying route to the commercial flight deck. I would wholeheartedly recommend the modular route to anyone with a long term plan, a family or just someone looking for an adventure rather than a standard experience.
So the airlines don't care how I get the MEIR just that I have one?
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As for the route to ATPL, I think convoluted can be better, as it sets you apart from the integrated boys who have nothing to talk about in interviews!
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4535jacks, your route is strangely similar to my long term plan.
I initially got an NPPL(M) which I upgraded to an NPPL(SSEA) last year, I have a share in a PA28 and just last week sent off my LAPL(A) application. Following that I will do the PPL upgrade, Night rating and IR/R (by the way, any reason you are doing IMC vs IR/R?).
Following on my plan is to enjoy flying and see how the market goes, maybe do my CBIR along the way if it can work. Then if things pick up I'll use a mix of savings and a small loan to complete the remaining training.
It sounds like you have a good chunk of hours already, out of interest how many do you currently have?
Good luck with your plans, I will be keeping an eye on this to see the answers to your questions.
I initially got an NPPL(M) which I upgraded to an NPPL(SSEA) last year, I have a share in a PA28 and just last week sent off my LAPL(A) application. Following that I will do the PPL upgrade, Night rating and IR/R (by the way, any reason you are doing IMC vs IR/R?).
Following on my plan is to enjoy flying and see how the market goes, maybe do my CBIR along the way if it can work. Then if things pick up I'll use a mix of savings and a small loan to complete the remaining training.
It sounds like you have a good chunk of hours already, out of interest how many do you currently have?
Good luck with your plans, I will be keeping an eye on this to see the answers to your questions.
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Ok I could have worded that better. My point (of encouragement) was that there are still airlines which value life experience over aptitude tests.
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I have always assumed that airlines are looking for value for money by recruiting individuals that they believe have command potential and will likely stay with the company for longer and give a better return for the initial investment or risk. I hope that my background with clear evidence of operational command and leadership would make me an attractive candidate but this is just a hope! The wings alliance website claims a statistic that older and mature FOs stay with their first airline for longer compared to younger pilots. This makes sense as we are generally more settled with a family to consider and so stability is more of a priority when it comes to job satisfaction. Hopefully 22 years of military service will also go some way to demonstrating that I am a committed individual.
Gordon, AFAIK there is no difference between IMC and IR(R) but rather IR(R) is the EASA trim for the qualification. Therefore the IMC will appear on a EASA licence as an IR(R). I don't have that many hours (over 200 and nearly all have been on taildraggers) as I didn't fly for a few years when my son was born but I am now flying 60-80 hours per year again. I have just sold my aircraft and my money will now be spent on progressing through the licences and ratings rather than hangarage and insurance.
Gordon, AFAIK there is no difference between IMC and IR(R) but rather IR(R) is the EASA trim for the qualification. Therefore the IMC will appear on a EASA licence as an IR(R). I don't have that many hours (over 200 and nearly all have been on taildraggers) as I didn't fly for a few years when my son was born but I am now flying 60-80 hours per year again. I have just sold my aircraft and my money will now be spent on progressing through the licences and ratings rather than hangarage and insurance.
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Yes indeed. They are always looking for command potential. I am not aware of anybody who recruits pilots where that is not a consideration. It doesn't always result in that potential being realised, but it is a selection criteria.
Recruitment has traditionally come from three sources. These come under two broad umbrellas of "Experienced pilots" and "inexperienced pilots." In the case the former, two of the three sources are civilian pilots and ex- military pilots. Both of these groups will have significant experience relevant to their backgrounds.The civilian pilots will be from an established background and the main training commitment is likely (where relevant) to involve conversion type rating training. Cost savings are to be found in those pilots already type rated. Unfortunately this is sometimes interpreted (particularly on these forums) as desirable without relevant experience. That simply isn't true!
Military pilots also come from an "experienced" background. Usually type conversion training is involved and although rarely a problem, there is also the transition from a military culture to a civilian one.
The third source, and relevant to these forums is the inexperienced recruitment. Over the last Twenty years that source has grown in importance and to some extent has displaced some of the experienced resource groups. This "cadet" recruitment can be expensive and extremely demanding of available training track resources. For that reason alone (and there are many more) it is important to ensure the Calbre of background training of the candidates is fully understood, verifiable and something (in many cases) the airline is directly involved with. It is also likely the customer airline will minimise their financial risk exposure by utilising training schools that consistently present the right product.
I am not sure who they are, but it is not at all unusual for an airline to want you to be based temporarily or permanently hundreds of miles from your home. Even then, further base changes may be a requirement of being promoted or maintaining employment. As you know military life often results in unaccompanied detachments and it is not at all unusual for ex-military experienced pilots to want a stability that often just doesn't exist in reality. For an inexperienced recruit "cadet" it is simply par for the course. You recruit them where you want them, and move them as you need to. It is further up the seniority lists that the problems arise because naturally people expect more stability commensurate with their seniority. Stability for new recruits is often a bit of a pipe dream. That is just one example, never mind the realities of "roster stability" and job insecurity etc.
Recruitment has traditionally come from three sources. These come under two broad umbrellas of "Experienced pilots" and "inexperienced pilots." In the case the former, two of the three sources are civilian pilots and ex- military pilots. Both of these groups will have significant experience relevant to their backgrounds.The civilian pilots will be from an established background and the main training commitment is likely (where relevant) to involve conversion type rating training. Cost savings are to be found in those pilots already type rated. Unfortunately this is sometimes interpreted (particularly on these forums) as desirable without relevant experience. That simply isn't true!
Military pilots also come from an "experienced" background. Usually type conversion training is involved and although rarely a problem, there is also the transition from a military culture to a civilian one.
The third source, and relevant to these forums is the inexperienced recruitment. Over the last Twenty years that source has grown in importance and to some extent has displaced some of the experienced resource groups. This "cadet" recruitment can be expensive and extremely demanding of available training track resources. For that reason alone (and there are many more) it is important to ensure the Calbre of background training of the candidates is fully understood, verifiable and something (in many cases) the airline is directly involved with. It is also likely the customer airline will minimise their financial risk exposure by utilising training schools that consistently present the right product.
The wings alliance website claims a statistic that older and mature FOs stay with their first airline for longer compared to younger pilots. This makes sense as we are generally more settled with a family to consider and so stability is more of a priority when it comes to job satisfaction.
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it sets you apart from the integrated boys who have nothing to talk about in interviews
life experience" and "escaping the surly bonds of Earth" stuff is superfluous
I have always assumed that airlines are looking for value for money by recruiting individuals that they believe have command potential and will likely stay with the company for longer and give a better return for the initial investment or risk
An airline is a business and these days more than ever it is a very hard nosed one
Another consideration is that despite the eminently transferable skills that an ex-Army Officer would bring to any new role, airline flying is not what it once was and an individual who has spent the past twenty odd years as a leader of men may find that he is categorised as a potential hazard to CRM by some recruiters. In my experience, this depends on the employer though and some appear to have a definite bias toward ex-RAF types (dependant on your last Squadron of course
). I have also seen ex-military personnel struggle with the very different application of standards in the civil world and even in the once rather conservative airline environment. Another consideration is that occupants of the left-hand seat are getting a lot younger these days; how would a couple of four sector days and a night-stop for a 40+ year old Major with lots of excellent life experience subordinate to a 25 year old Captain with the personality of an amoeba sound? Doubtless champing at the bit at the prospect, but...
older and mature FOs stay with their first airline for longer compared to younger pilots
So the airlines don't care how I get the MEIR just that I have one?
Last edited by Reverserbucket; 11th Apr 2017 at 15:16.
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Reverserbucket, thanks for the info. I fully recognise that going modular rather than integrated will make getting an interview an awful lot harder but with my personal situation, the modular route is the is the only option plus I am genuinely motivated by the unique and interesting modular path. I will be older than I wish when looking for a job (37-40) but I have the safety net of a pension and as an experienced chartered engineer that has just spent 18 months working in industry and for a leading construction management firm, finding a non aviation job shouldn't be too much of a challenge - well nowhere near as challenging as landing a job with an airline anyway! This will allow me to continue to financially support my family while I job hunt. This really does remove a lot of the pressure and I guess I am taking the approach that if I never get an interview or job then at least I tried and will be a much better private pilot.
It is very easy for me look back now and wish that I had chosen a flying career instead of the Army but when I think about, I would not change anything for the world. I have thoroughly loved my Army career and done so many amazing things - many of which still astonish me today! I have met, worked with and befriended some of the most incredible people imaginable, several of whom will be sadly missed, and my life is certainly enriched having known them and I have made some life long friendships. I have had the privallge of leading men on operations and I think that despite what I may do with the rest of my life, this will endure as one of my greatest achievements. The Army has also developed me as a person and provided me with some soft skills that make me very competitive compared to my civilian counterparts. I shudder to think who I would be and what I would be doing right now if I had chosen another path 15 years ago. If it wasn't for the military I would never have learnt to fly in the first place (I started gliding in the Army) and it is only due to operational deployments that i have been able to afford a Pilots Licence and aircraft ownership. Due to recent operations, I have managed to achieve many things and experience situations that I thought it take a full career to experience. Therefore I have satisfied the vast majority of my personal objectives and so feel the need for a new challenge in life and for me the pull of aviation is too great (it already dominates my life!). So I do not for one second regret my choices but feel I have to at least give this a go and try and fullfill my dream even if the odds are stacked against me - it is better to try and fail rather then never try at all!
I am keen to maximise my chances of employment by strengthening my training record which I will primarily do by completing my CPL, MEP and MEIR with one recognised training provider that is a member of the wings alliance. I am looking at using either Stapleford or Aeros. I plan to be a bit more fluid with the MCC/JOC as I hope to this with an ATO with a proven airline placement programme. I also want to do a more expensive MCC/JOC that maximises multicrew sim hours and provides a more holistic preparation for working with an airline as well as some interview prep. Although many years away, I am looking at Wings Alliance, Oxford Aviation, Kura or Aeros for this training.
Anyway, I now have a better understanding of what I need to do. I have now set my sights on:
Combined LAPL to PPL and Night Rating this year. I will also do the CPL cross country flight as part of the conversion.
2018 - IMC
UPRT in 2019. Also fly IFR on my PPL (20hrs over two years)
2020 CB SEIR with chosen ATO.
2021 start ATPL thoery with Bristol Groundschool and Complete by 2022.
2023 complete CPL with chosen ATO
2024 complete MEP with chosen ATO
2025 complete SEIR to MEIR conversion with chosen ATO and MCC/JOC with an ATO with a placement scheme. Start job hunting.
Between all this training I will continue to fly for pleasure and glider tow to maximise hours. I may also try and fit an FI course in if funds allow but the key is completing the training with no debt.
What ever happens, I am sure the next 8 years will be fun and fingers crossed, I may get to work with some of you in the future.
Thanks for all the advice.
It is very easy for me look back now and wish that I had chosen a flying career instead of the Army but when I think about, I would not change anything for the world. I have thoroughly loved my Army career and done so many amazing things - many of which still astonish me today! I have met, worked with and befriended some of the most incredible people imaginable, several of whom will be sadly missed, and my life is certainly enriched having known them and I have made some life long friendships. I have had the privallge of leading men on operations and I think that despite what I may do with the rest of my life, this will endure as one of my greatest achievements. The Army has also developed me as a person and provided me with some soft skills that make me very competitive compared to my civilian counterparts. I shudder to think who I would be and what I would be doing right now if I had chosen another path 15 years ago. If it wasn't for the military I would never have learnt to fly in the first place (I started gliding in the Army) and it is only due to operational deployments that i have been able to afford a Pilots Licence and aircraft ownership. Due to recent operations, I have managed to achieve many things and experience situations that I thought it take a full career to experience. Therefore I have satisfied the vast majority of my personal objectives and so feel the need for a new challenge in life and for me the pull of aviation is too great (it already dominates my life!). So I do not for one second regret my choices but feel I have to at least give this a go and try and fullfill my dream even if the odds are stacked against me - it is better to try and fail rather then never try at all!
I am keen to maximise my chances of employment by strengthening my training record which I will primarily do by completing my CPL, MEP and MEIR with one recognised training provider that is a member of the wings alliance. I am looking at using either Stapleford or Aeros. I plan to be a bit more fluid with the MCC/JOC as I hope to this with an ATO with a proven airline placement programme. I also want to do a more expensive MCC/JOC that maximises multicrew sim hours and provides a more holistic preparation for working with an airline as well as some interview prep. Although many years away, I am looking at Wings Alliance, Oxford Aviation, Kura or Aeros for this training.
Anyway, I now have a better understanding of what I need to do. I have now set my sights on:
Combined LAPL to PPL and Night Rating this year. I will also do the CPL cross country flight as part of the conversion.
2018 - IMC
UPRT in 2019. Also fly IFR on my PPL (20hrs over two years)
2020 CB SEIR with chosen ATO.
2021 start ATPL thoery with Bristol Groundschool and Complete by 2022.
2023 complete CPL with chosen ATO
2024 complete MEP with chosen ATO
2025 complete SEIR to MEIR conversion with chosen ATO and MCC/JOC with an ATO with a placement scheme. Start job hunting.
Between all this training I will continue to fly for pleasure and glider tow to maximise hours. I may also try and fit an FI course in if funds allow but the key is completing the training with no debt.
What ever happens, I am sure the next 8 years will be fun and fingers crossed, I may get to work with some of you in the future.
Thanks for all the advice.
Last edited by 4535jacks; 13th Apr 2017 at 09:00.
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Jacks,
Please don't misunderstand my sentiments - your background and experience will be recognised and most likely very well appreciated, not least by the more senior captains you will fly with. It's getting through the initial filtering that is often the greatest obstacle. Your plan and goals are well thought out and as airline flying in my view is not perhaps the be all and end all it once was, you are right to continue with your current career for all the benefits, experience and satisfaction it brings. I don't feel age will be against you frankly, if the market continues as it has been for the past 18 months (you will have observed how cyclical this industry is though), and as you say, in the unlikely event nothing comes of it, you will have had an interesting journey and be well qualified at the end of it. You mention possibly doing a bit of instructing which in all honesty, can be an extremely rewarding occupation both part or full-time (providing you won't be reliant on either a sustainable (with family) or necessarily consistent income as a PPL FI).
You identify the value in strengthening your training background through the use of one provider and that is important, as is the goal of coming out the end of this debt free. I would be cautious about MCC/JOC; ATO's that have a proven airline placement record are not necessarily the same as those that have a commercial agreement with an airline in terms of mentored or sponsored training programmes and I would be wary of using an integrated ATO for this having followed the modular path. Some ATO's simply don't know how to handle modular students despite being keen to take your money. There are others not on your list that have excellent reputations and I would research these as well as visit each before making a decision. Additionally, 8 years is a long time in aviation and training providers come and go as well as EASA's proposed changes to the MCC/JOC training framework which will most likely mean that MCC as it stands today will be part of a more comprehensive JOC/Evidence Based Training CRM module.
One last point, try to seek out as many ex-Army rotary (or other) airline pilots - there are some out there. Having a referee or an ex-mate that can give you a steer in the right direction when looking for that first job can be enormously helpful. Looks like you've done your homework so, again, best of luck.
Please don't misunderstand my sentiments - your background and experience will be recognised and most likely very well appreciated, not least by the more senior captains you will fly with. It's getting through the initial filtering that is often the greatest obstacle. Your plan and goals are well thought out and as airline flying in my view is not perhaps the be all and end all it once was, you are right to continue with your current career for all the benefits, experience and satisfaction it brings. I don't feel age will be against you frankly, if the market continues as it has been for the past 18 months (you will have observed how cyclical this industry is though), and as you say, in the unlikely event nothing comes of it, you will have had an interesting journey and be well qualified at the end of it. You mention possibly doing a bit of instructing which in all honesty, can be an extremely rewarding occupation both part or full-time (providing you won't be reliant on either a sustainable (with family) or necessarily consistent income as a PPL FI).
You identify the value in strengthening your training background through the use of one provider and that is important, as is the goal of coming out the end of this debt free. I would be cautious about MCC/JOC; ATO's that have a proven airline placement record are not necessarily the same as those that have a commercial agreement with an airline in terms of mentored or sponsored training programmes and I would be wary of using an integrated ATO for this having followed the modular path. Some ATO's simply don't know how to handle modular students despite being keen to take your money. There are others not on your list that have excellent reputations and I would research these as well as visit each before making a decision. Additionally, 8 years is a long time in aviation and training providers come and go as well as EASA's proposed changes to the MCC/JOC training framework which will most likely mean that MCC as it stands today will be part of a more comprehensive JOC/Evidence Based Training CRM module.
One last point, try to seek out as many ex-Army rotary (or other) airline pilots - there are some out there. Having a referee or an ex-mate that can give you a steer in the right direction when looking for that first job can be enormously helpful. Looks like you've done your homework so, again, best of luck.
