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Question bank vs Learning

Old 23rd Sep 2017, 10:05
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Question bank vs Learning

Hi

I have my first set of exams fast approaching and i am starting to worry about the exam just "catching me out"

i tend to study and study and study, try a question bank and just get caught out on so many small details, or down to the wording of the questions sometimes

the last thing i want to do is learn the question bank's, at the end of the day if i am in an emergency i dont want to be sat there going, what are my 4 options!

But my question is how accurate are the question banks in relation to the actual exams at the moment?

What are everyones tips on studying? ATPL is 50% a memory game with so much information to try remember, i love learning but i find the ATPLS are such a memory game.

i have persisted to not learn the questions bank, but i am scoring 75-85% (borderline at moment) with 6 weeks to go and it would be nice to know the question banks are quite accurate, i am using a mix of atpl online and BGS for question banks

Subjects i am on at moment are Airlaw, HPL, MET(BEAST!) AND IFR comms
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 10:14
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Go on the questions. I have a couple of exams done and passed thankfully, other than to check something again (which most good question banks should provide anyway so you wouldn't need to), my advice is to leave the material.

Thins is, in 10 years time if faced with an emergency, a good 80%+ of the material is not going to be any use to flying even on a daily basis, for an emergency i can assure you that you will neither remember nor need anything much from the ATPLs!

If you want high grades, hit the question banks. If the exams I sat so far are any indication, then for a subject like mass and balance i had 1 new question, and for AGK (a very large subject - 80q exam), I had 10-15 new questions. Quite honestly, I wouldn't have passed without the question banks. I don't think any atpl student can argue otherwise. Reason being is that the questions are often stupid riddles where they're trying to catch you out and not see what you know. Another reason is the questions focus on particular ares, absolutely no point in learning the inner workings of shunt wound generator when the only question that may come up on it is asking whether the output when a load put on it increases or decreases, unless you want a sore head!
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 10:30
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Hi Officer Kite!

Thanks for response, i get mixed reviews people say dont learn the questions, your stupid to do it, then others say what you said.

So its really hard to judge what the best method is.

So when you sat your last exam a lot of the questions were quite familiar to you already?

I am happy to know the questions are similar to the real ones then i know i am at least on the right ball park.

I do find some stuff just over the top, like learning about the different numbers of fire engines at category airports, why do you need to know a category 4 has 3 fire engines or what ever it is, why not just look the information up in the AD or GEN if you need to know. little things like that really annoy me about the whole thing
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 11:09
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Yes, for well over 65 of the 80 questions on my AGK exam I didn't have to give it a second thought, I'd seen the questions before and just had to click and go. Was done the 2 hr exam in 35 minutes. Some say you'd be stupid to, but if you want to pass the exams themselves with the highest possible grades, then I'd say you'd be stupid to forego the question banks. For me at least I find the questions to be somewhat unrelated or different to the material itself, they can be so specific or focus on certain areas you may never have even considered during study, to the point that if you just studied the material you may as well be rolling a dice to get the right answer in the EASA questions.
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 11:11
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Just study the question banks, of course make sure you understand the theories behind the questions, but base your study around the question banks!
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 15:40
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This thread is very close to my heart.

As a student, I was always very passionate about learning. I wanted to know everything there was to know. I chose to do a residential course to maximise the information I could get access to. I refused to use the QB at all for the first 4 months of the course (we didn't actually even have access to it unless we payed extra, which I refused having already spent 5K for the course).

I did note however that those on my course using the BGS QB were getting much higher exam results than me despite not actually having a clue about 90% of the material. "The answer is B because I've seen this question 30 times already"....those kind of people.

I walked out of Ground school with an 88% average...one of the lowest in my class. But I honestly felt that I knew the material inside out.
I went on after my MCC to teach ATPL theory, both modular, integrated and for BSc (hons) degrees in Aviation Studies for over 3 years.

That was in 2011. How many of the students in my class who hit the QB hard now work for airlines? as far as I know..........ZERO.
There were a few in my class who did 50/50 learning, and of those about half have jobs, most within the corporate sector. There are only 3 from my class working for airlines (including myself).

Admittedly the market is much better now, so exam results are not as important as they once were. They are more (and have always been) part of a selection test to see whether you have the ability to learn a lot of information (relevant or not) in a short amount of time. This ensures you have the capacity to hold large amounts of information in your head, and that you are capable of passing a type rating. It is for this reason the airlines have generally seen ATPL exam results as an important recruitment factor.
Learning answers to the QB is not going to help you in the long run...In my opinion. But that depends on your academic ability.

Regarding Officer Kites comments, I would agree that as the QB have become more prolific, the CAA have been under a lot of pressure from the airlines to make the ATPL exams harder, in an attempt to minimise the "learning the answers" method, and increase the students requirements to "learn the subject".
Although I will openly admit they havn't done a very good job of it, and the students now appear to be more confused that at any time in history. Do you answer correctly? or answer what you know (from the QB) the CAA claims is the right answer?

I would also add in regard to Officer Kites comment "Quite honestly, I wouldn't have passed without the question banks. I don't think any ATPL student can argue otherwise", with all due respect you can't have worked particularly hard then. The ATPL syllabus is not difficult if you put your mind to it. I passed all mine without barely touching a QB in 6 months.

In closing, in 2017 the QB's are needed more than ever due to the confusing nature of the syllabus. However, please don't rely on them. Once you start a type rating, the skills you will have gathered from needing to learn how to learn will be very valuable. Especially if you're paying for your own TR.

Critical rant over.
Good luck.
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 17:24
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Originally Posted by TryingToAvoidCBs
I would also add in regard to Officer Kites comment "Quite honestly, I wouldn't have passed without the question banks. I don't think any ATPL student can argue otherwise", with all due respect you can't have worked particularly hard then.
I actually had a good laugh at that LOL. Whilst not passing judgment on someone I've never even met nor do I have a clue as to how hard they've worked, I can assure you I have worked my socks off since starting here continuously. There is also a mental rollercoaster attached to the ATPLs from all the stress, fear of failure and there are times when it gets a bit much. As most other students, I put my heart and soul into this. I therefore highly suggest you bugger off with that nonsensical and baseless judgment and get off your high horse.

Back to the OP. We started off with AGK, it is a rather detailed subject, that is where the challenge lies. I started off literally writing out detailed notes of everything, I refused to move on unless I knew the topics inside out, started with airframes, then onto gear systems, hydraulics etc ... all was OK until we hit electrics. It just didn't click, I wrote out enough notes on A4 pages to compile a mini thesis ... then i tried the question banks to see where I was at with regards the official exams (no point knowing it if you can't pass the exam stuff) ... I was failing quite regularly or getting mid 70s. Others in my class who were not doing much other than the question banks were passing the school tests and this was all being sent off to our airlines. My flatmate did nothing other than the question banks and was flying high in our airline's eyes.

Then, anyone with a brain, would do something about it. And this is why I offered the advice that I did. I changed my approach and used the question banks as a study method, now when I say used the QBs, I don't mean I memorised the 1629 answers in the AGK bank, I mean I based by study off the banks. If I answered a question right - great, if i got it wrong - i looked up in the explanation why I was wrong. Bit by bit it all started to come together in my mind. I passed AGK yesterday with 87%, I am quite confident that I had a decent enough understanding of it, and there were about 10-15 new questions I mostly got right to prove that. It is also impossible to memorise every question, there are some in which scenarios are given and you must state if 2 statements are correct or incorrect, there can be hundreds of these in a bank - you must understand the theory behind this for example. And also there are some questions which just do not make sense - you tend to remember these anyway.

Best of luck!
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 17:25
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With reference to relevance, one of my ICAO conversion students just pointed out that the trip he just did from Mexico to Moscow bore no relation at all to the Performance/Flight Planning exams - neither did their flight planning software so it all had to be done by hand. It gets worse......
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Old 23rd Sep 2017, 22:45
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Originally Posted by Officer Kite
I therefore highly suggest you bugger off with that nonsensical and baseless judgment and get off your high horse.
I can assure you there are no horses in sight.
The comment was based on the way your statement was worded. I've seen hundreds of students over the years claim they couldn't pass without the QB, and I've known for a fact that their comments were nonsense. They couldn't pass without the QB because otherwise they would have to work 10 x harder than they were (which wasn't a lot) and they weren't willing to do it.

Right or wrong, my comment was based on experience. I apologise.

Which brings me onto your next comment(s).


Originally Posted by Officer Kite
"If I answered a question right - great, if i got it wrong - i looked up in the explanation why I was wrong. Bit by bit it all started to come together in my mind".

"You must understand the theory behind this"

"I started off literally writing out detailed notes of everything, I refused to move on unless I knew the topics inside out"
I couldn't agree more with everything you've written. I told my students exactly the same thing. Some listened, some didn't. Those who didn't generally failed.

As I say, my GS was done over 6 years ago, a lot has changed since then.
I have a personal hated for all QBs. Always have, always will.
But reluctantly I do understand their importance more and more in recent years, and their increase in popularity and perceived need.

As a friend of mine used to say "Do what you want, I've already got my licence"

Best of luck.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 09:52
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fair enough then, I apologise for my rather negative reaction, seeing someone state I have not worked when this stuff has literally taken over my life and I've put so much dedication into it since starting just hit a nerve.

OP I think you have enough information now!
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 18:48
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Officer Kite,

Careful of overstating the bank, it’s easy to exaggerate how much of your exam was actually from the bank...

You said you knew the answers to well over 65 of the 80 questions in your AGK exam, leaving 10-15 you didn’t know.

If we conservatively say there were 13 questions you had to answer, that’s only 16% of the paper you actually had to answer. As in 84% already in the bag (a good pass).

As you got 87%, that means you got 3% of that final 16% correct which is less than 20% right. The exam is 4 question multiple choice so by answering blind you’d get 25% (you’d have got 4% of that 16 correct). That means that despite all the studying and work you put in you actually did worse on the questions you had to answer than a dog trained to hit A repeatedly would have.

So either it was maybe half bank and you got a decent score on the second half or... (hopefully less likely!) you have negative AGK knowledge
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 21:21
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You would probably learn more about flying by reading the numerous books by highly experienced pilots such as Barry Schiff. I don't think the point of the ATPL theory is to impart knowledge anyway, it's been serving some other function. Hopefully the newly revised content will be more relevant and interesting.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 03:01
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Don't worry, banjo, it will! They are getting away from training for modern technology with Sopwith Camel thinking. But bear in mind that, although a lot of stuff has been cut, a lot of stuff has been added as well.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 08:16
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It's been a few years now, and I realise things have changed, but I found the questions banks essential.
The first thing to accept is that you are not going to remember most of this stuff. It is a mid term memory test designed to keep pilot numbers down, and make sure that only the dedicated get through. The volume of knowledge is far too broad. The majority of it is not relevant to a type rating course. They will show you how to turn on the INS and the Air conditioning packs which is as much as you need to know.
Hopefully it has changed, but I found there were numerous examples of where two answers were correct, and you need to know which one they were looking for - the only way to do that was through question banks. Since the aim was to pass the exam, my strategy was to learn the question bank first and read the books second to consolidate my knowledge. I was training to be a pilot, not an aerodynamicist, a doctor or an electrician. My advice would be to find the way to study that gets you through, but work smart, not hard. It's all very noble wanting to have a deeper understanding of things, but you are training for an EASA licence. It's an EASA exam. If you can pass it then by definition you know enough. Trust me, it won't feel like you know anything but you have the rest of your career to study up.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 08:29
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Ok, but let's be honest. In subjects like meteorology you can study, then go to the QB and score 75-85% without problem. You understand one idea and with this you can answer lots of questions. But in subjects like air law or OPS... 200 page manual each. You learn all about ETOPS and Air spaces and then they ask you about the colur of an AIC. Come on, nobody can expect this.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 08:52
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To be fair, LO 010 08 04 04 says "Explain the organisation and standard colour codes of AICs".

The problem here is that for years there was only a loose association between the LOs and the exam questions, in fact the first question bank was, I was told at the time, written without any reference to the LOs in the Aviation Law subject at least. Over the years questions outside the LOs have been taken out and new questions that have been added were an attempt at being sensible.

Despite acknowledging that the current LOs are not really fit for purpose and initiating a review (to which Paco is contributing) EASA's latest instruction to its 'Subject Experts' is to make sure that every single one of the LOs (that they admit are defective) is now tested. Hence the silly questions.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 12:19
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Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham
To be fair, LO 010 08 04 04 says "Explain the organisation and standard colour codes of AICs".
You are right, perhaps i have to look more to the LOs. Anyway, the "study vs qbank" thing its ok in some (probably most) subjects. In other ones, question banks are without discussion the most efficent way of studying.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 09:38
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Hi, I couldn't agree more with the superflanker.

The topics like meteorology, human performance, onces that make use of actual thought process i find i do better on a brand spanking new mock test.

Subjects like Air low, ops there just a memory game! with questions full of surprises to catch you out!

Someone please tell me why its important to know what annex dangerous articles comes under, when there is a contents page at the beginning if you really needed to know!, its rubbish like that that i just do not see a point in learning.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 22:25
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WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF AN EXAM

The question trainees, particularly those just starting out on an aviation career, need to ask themselves is, "Am I studying to pass an exam or am I preparing myself with knowledge and understanding so I can operate in the aviation environment with safety and assurance?"

I'm sure I'd rather have the pilot of my aircraft or the controllers separating it from others to have passed their exams and tests by applying knowledge of the subject and not remembering the answers to stock questions.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 22:41
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I want to learn the material, but the questions can be so irrelevant .

Please tell me why you need to know what annex contains information about personal licensing.

I would rather spend my time learning relevant material, then what part of the operations manual contains information on the height and width of registration markings. i mean come on, seriously... i would much rather my pilot is checking the engine components and systems then measuring the height of the registration markings of planes, then checking annex 7 to make sure they comply.
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