Degree Courses with Aviation Studies (Leeds, Liverpool, London Metropolitan etc)
Air Transport Operations at City is a 3 year degree. The ATPL is completed at the end of Year 2 and the third year is taken on a part-time basis. Therefore it is possible (and happens) to begin flying after the 2nd year and continue the 3rd year over 24 months if required.
Professional Student
Groundloop,
I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere, but do you know if it's possible to enter the course straight into the 3rd year with an fATPL? I.e. do the ATPL theory elsewhere, then do the 3rd year to get awarded a degree?
I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere, but do you know if it's possible to enter the course straight into the 3rd year with an fATPL? I.e. do the ATPL theory elsewhere, then do the 3rd year to get awarded a degree?
Hobbit, in general the answer will be no on any degree course. The rigours of an ATPL are, I'm afraid, academically well below that of the vast majority of degree courses.
I am aware of a case recently where one of the universities that have been mentioned above was asked about ATPL as an entry for a BEng course. Their decision was "yes, at level 1, if you've also got A-level maths".
G
I am aware of a case recently where one of the universities that have been mentioned above was asked about ATPL as an entry for a BEng course. Their decision was "yes, at level 1, if you've also got A-level maths".
G
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Air Transport Operations @ City University
is it a hard course and i dont get what the first year is about
I went to their open day some time back and have kept in touch with some students. I believe they've expressed their concerns about the lack of mental stimulation, lack of relevancy in some areas and high course fees to the course director, but so far I don't think anything has been changed.
Having said all that, it is a new course and it does have a lot of potential, but not much value in it's present state.
I Hope you find this helpful.
Well, I am afraid that I CANNOT let the above post go unchallenged. I hope that Scroggs will allow me to reply.
Firstly, I have absolutely no record of a "Don Simon" EVER applying to, or attending, an open day for Air Transport Operations. Of course, being PPRuNe this may not be his (or her) real name. If not could he please PM me privately with his real name and when he attended an Open Day. I will then withdraw the above comment.
Regarding his comments about the concerns of student on the course. NOT a single student has expressed to me the concerns he lists. We carry out a very rigorous annual student feedback exercise every year (anonymously) and have always had very positive responses. Also, being a small group I keep very closely in touch with all students and they always tell me they are satisfied with the course.
The building of the A320 simulator (it is not a Frasca) is a group exercise. The fact that the result is a cockpit simulator is a bonus. The idea behind the project is to encourage group working (allocating of tasks, meeting deadlines and report writing) and researching and recommending of sources for parts. Oh, and programming the simulator does provide a good insight into how the Airbus flightdeck concept works.
Also the course has been running since 1999 (the first in the UK to include pilot training - despite some similar claims from other universities) and we currently have a graduate employment rate of 100% with 85% of them currently flying as pilots.
Hobbit1983, in answer to your question, if you already hold an fATPL it is NOT possible to enter into the 3rd year. For a start, universities cannot award an honours degree for only one year of attendance. What we have had in the past is that 4 students with fATPLS have done the first year and then gone straght to the (part-time) 3rd year as the fATPL is the 2nd year.
Apologies for the above long post but some very serious allegations have
been made which cannot go without a response.
Firstly, I have absolutely no record of a "Don Simon" EVER applying to, or attending, an open day for Air Transport Operations. Of course, being PPRuNe this may not be his (or her) real name. If not could he please PM me privately with his real name and when he attended an Open Day. I will then withdraw the above comment.
Regarding his comments about the concerns of student on the course. NOT a single student has expressed to me the concerns he lists. We carry out a very rigorous annual student feedback exercise every year (anonymously) and have always had very positive responses. Also, being a small group I keep very closely in touch with all students and they always tell me they are satisfied with the course.
The building of the A320 simulator (it is not a Frasca) is a group exercise. The fact that the result is a cockpit simulator is a bonus. The idea behind the project is to encourage group working (allocating of tasks, meeting deadlines and report writing) and researching and recommending of sources for parts. Oh, and programming the simulator does provide a good insight into how the Airbus flightdeck concept works.
Also the course has been running since 1999 (the first in the UK to include pilot training - despite some similar claims from other universities) and we currently have a graduate employment rate of 100% with 85% of them currently flying as pilots.
Hobbit1983, in answer to your question, if you already hold an fATPL it is NOT possible to enter into the 3rd year. For a start, universities cannot award an honours degree for only one year of attendance. What we have had in the past is that 4 students with fATPLS have done the first year and then gone straght to the (part-time) 3rd year as the fATPL is the 2nd year.
Apologies for the above long post but some very serious allegations have
been made which cannot go without a response.
Last edited by Groundloop; 22nd Feb 2007 at 08:08.
Professional Student
Genghis, Groundloop, thanks for your replies. I didn't really expect universities to award degrees on the basis of the ATPL theory...but thought it was worth asking!
Not criticising anything Groundloop has said, but commenting if I may:
- Malign scuttlebut goes on about every course, usually due to lack of knowledge. The only real solution is to find out for yourself, from those delivering it, and those who have had it delivered to them already.
- Major design and build exercises are fundamental I think to pretty much all of the courses discussed so far, particularly in teams. I'd be worried to see any course that didn't include these elements.
- Every course has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I'd not go to (say) BCUC if I wanted to be a professional engineer, and probably not Sheffield if my primary objective was to be a professional pilot. This isn't a criticism of either, only a comment upon their differences.
- Any degree course is about learning material, deep understanding, analysis and problem solving. An ATPL is primarily about learning and reproducing material - it is highly likely that anybody whose only significant qualification is an fATPL would be able to survive on any degree course if they were launched directly into the third, or even second year. The education is tough, but progressive - that's just the nature of a degree.
G
- Malign scuttlebut goes on about every course, usually due to lack of knowledge. The only real solution is to find out for yourself, from those delivering it, and those who have had it delivered to them already.
- Major design and build exercises are fundamental I think to pretty much all of the courses discussed so far, particularly in teams. I'd be worried to see any course that didn't include these elements.
- Every course has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I'd not go to (say) BCUC if I wanted to be a professional engineer, and probably not Sheffield if my primary objective was to be a professional pilot. This isn't a criticism of either, only a comment upon their differences.
- Any degree course is about learning material, deep understanding, analysis and problem solving. An ATPL is primarily about learning and reproducing material - it is highly likely that anybody whose only significant qualification is an fATPL would be able to survive on any degree course if they were launched directly into the third, or even second year. The education is tough, but progressive - that's just the nature of a degree.
G
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Don Simon, I understand your concerns about investing time and money into a degree course, however you are totally ill informed.
I completed the course at City University in June 2004 having attended university for 2 years and 1 year at flight training school. I was lucky enough to have a job in August the same year. I now fly both short and long haul operating 757 and 767.
The course at City was not only demanding, thought provoking, interesting but personally has provided me with a great platform to enter the industry.
At airline interviews, my degree at City was perceived to be highly advantageous whilst also allowing better responses to many business type questions i was asked. Now within the airline industry it still provides great background to many of the tasks and problems i have to deal with regularly.
City University undoubtably provided the best 2 years of my life, its a great place to study and live, money well spent i would say.
If you would like to get in touch or have any qu's about the course, please feel free to email.
I completed the course at City University in June 2004 having attended university for 2 years and 1 year at flight training school. I was lucky enough to have a job in August the same year. I now fly both short and long haul operating 757 and 767.
The course at City was not only demanding, thought provoking, interesting but personally has provided me with a great platform to enter the industry.
At airline interviews, my degree at City was perceived to be highly advantageous whilst also allowing better responses to many business type questions i was asked. Now within the airline industry it still provides great background to many of the tasks and problems i have to deal with regularly.
City University undoubtably provided the best 2 years of my life, its a great place to study and live, money well spent i would say.
If you would like to get in touch or have any qu's about the course, please feel free to email.
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Air Transport Operations @ City University
I am a graduate of the ATOPS course at CITY University (September 2006). Since then I worked in the Operations office of a very reputable Airline company founded in 1954 (I firstly learned about it on the Airline History lecture of the course). Now I secured flying job with the same company on their A320 aircraft and I’m having a good time. The course actually helped me a lot to blend in with the culture (which I learned from the Air Safety Management lecture of the course how important it is) and to actually get this job from the contacts I made working in Operations.
So if Mickey Mouse asks me tomorrow early morning at FL340 was it all worth it?
I definitely would say YES!
Reply for: Don Simons quote : mickey mouse course.
So if Mickey Mouse asks me tomorrow early morning at FL340 was it all worth it?
I definitely would say YES!
Reply for: Don Simons quote : mickey mouse course.
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degree/pilot studies
heyhey, i have been looking into doing a degree which also includes pilot studies and have seen a few limited options such as avionic studies at liverpool university. i can't seem to find much infomation on the subject but am i right in thinking i will loose all free time available to fly. do you think it is worth it nd do any of you know the cost???
Professional Student
Do a search - IIRC there were at least 2 recent threads on this. From personal experience of the BCUC course, you certainly don't loose all free time to the flying - more so to studying for the exams, but to no great extent.
Having said that, I suspect the BCUC degree was nowhere near as taxing as some of the pilot/engineering combinations out there - from my perspective, at least the first year wasn't academically challenging as an engineering degree (I have first hand experience of both).
Having said that, I suspect the BCUC degree was nowhere near as taxing as some of the pilot/engineering combinations out there - from my perspective, at least the first year wasn't academically challenging as an engineering degree (I have first hand experience of both).
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can u help me
hi everybody or anyone
im just wondering can anybody help me im a 16 year old student pilot and am wondering does any airline offer sponserships or anything to such young pilots i have my ppl but am just waitin to turn 17 so i only have a spl now i would be very greatful if somebody could get bck to me
im just wondering can anybody help me im a 16 year old student pilot and am wondering does any airline offer sponserships or anything to such young pilots i have my ppl but am just waitin to turn 17 so i only have a spl now i would be very greatful if somebody could get bck to me
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I enrolled on the Leeds course, and it was a complete shambles. Admittedly, I was the first year they had offered it, but they really didn't seem to have that much aviation about it - from what I gathered they taught you PPL theory as a double module and there were a couple more modules, but most were physics and maths.
I'm not one to say you don't NEED those skills, but some of the syllabus didn't seem relevant - i'm finding that even now as I go through Mod II at bristol.
I'd take a raincheck and have a good poke around the uni first, I only last 4 months as I got sick and left the course (not booted out as one kinda ppruner tried to point out), but i think i'm better off now, I have PPL 110hours, nearly done my theories and going to Stapleford (if they'll have me) in June.
Horgy
I'm not one to say you don't NEED those skills, but some of the syllabus didn't seem relevant - i'm finding that even now as I go through Mod II at bristol.
I'd take a raincheck and have a good poke around the uni first, I only last 4 months as I got sick and left the course (not booted out as one kinda ppruner tried to point out), but i think i'm better off now, I have PPL 110hours, nearly done my theories and going to Stapleford (if they'll have me) in June.
Horgy
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My best friend does Aero Eng at Glasgow University, he got AAAB for his highers and finds the course really tough!
A degree is a degree at the end of the day, and if you have one it helps it certain areas. I know of a few pilots who have the degree and have got jobs with an airline.
A degree is a degree at the end of the day, and if you have one it helps it certain areas. I know of a few pilots who have the degree and have got jobs with an airline.
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Hi Guy/Gals,
A rare venture for me outside the realms of the CTC threads, but I couldn’t let a debate about my beloved course at Leeds go without my 2 cents.
Admittedly Mr. Horgy the 1st year wasn’t the best run affair, however after quitting after 4 months I think you have very little right to comment on the overall ability of the staff at Leeds to deliver the course. I went through in the second year, which still wasn’t perfect, but many improvements were beginning to shine through. For instance, the addition of a motion simulator and access to both wind tunnels and gas turbines for my final year project were a massive boost. I would also strongly disagree that the lectures were ‘irrelevant’; something that you would have realised had you made it past freshers week!
I’m currently in New Zealand with CTC along with 6 other colleagues from the 2003 Leeds class, who I think would whole heartedly support the view that nearly all the ATPL theory that we are currently learning is simply a case of revision due to the modules taken throughout our second and third years.
You must also realise that the Pilot Studies option will allow you to do a virtually ‘integrated’ PPL for around 2500GBP through Leeds Flying School (don’t get me started) which on its own represents a massive saving! (I know student loans etc etc add up, but aviation in any form is not a bad subject to study if it’s what you really want to get into, and doing it at Leeds is even better due to awesome nightlife, likeminded people and professional atmosphere).
The 7 of us on the Wings course out here represent around a 60/70% pass rate of all those who applied from my year of the Leeds course (compared to an (inter)national average of around 5% at most) so we must be doing something right! (and please don’t for a minute think that I believe that getting onto CTC is the be all and end all of getting into the industry, but its is certainly one of the better options!)
At the end of the day it is, as Lovezzin says, a choice between 2 totally different courses, although I would heavily dispute the fact that my degree was a ‘doss’!! Aviation Tech is a BSc and Aero Eng is a BEng, you can draw your own conclusions as to required intelligence and workload from that!
I could go on, however if anyone genuinely wants an insight into the Leeds course or CTC (excluding the ‘can you please write my application/what should I say if they ask me this/how do I practise for this/can you tie my shoes before I go to stage 2’ questions) then please feel free to PM me.
Pre3
A rare venture for me outside the realms of the CTC threads, but I couldn’t let a debate about my beloved course at Leeds go without my 2 cents.
Admittedly Mr. Horgy the 1st year wasn’t the best run affair, however after quitting after 4 months I think you have very little right to comment on the overall ability of the staff at Leeds to deliver the course. I went through in the second year, which still wasn’t perfect, but many improvements were beginning to shine through. For instance, the addition of a motion simulator and access to both wind tunnels and gas turbines for my final year project were a massive boost. I would also strongly disagree that the lectures were ‘irrelevant’; something that you would have realised had you made it past freshers week!
I’m currently in New Zealand with CTC along with 6 other colleagues from the 2003 Leeds class, who I think would whole heartedly support the view that nearly all the ATPL theory that we are currently learning is simply a case of revision due to the modules taken throughout our second and third years.
You must also realise that the Pilot Studies option will allow you to do a virtually ‘integrated’ PPL for around 2500GBP through Leeds Flying School (don’t get me started) which on its own represents a massive saving! (I know student loans etc etc add up, but aviation in any form is not a bad subject to study if it’s what you really want to get into, and doing it at Leeds is even better due to awesome nightlife, likeminded people and professional atmosphere).
The 7 of us on the Wings course out here represent around a 60/70% pass rate of all those who applied from my year of the Leeds course (compared to an (inter)national average of around 5% at most) so we must be doing something right! (and please don’t for a minute think that I believe that getting onto CTC is the be all and end all of getting into the industry, but its is certainly one of the better options!)
At the end of the day it is, as Lovezzin says, a choice between 2 totally different courses, although I would heavily dispute the fact that my degree was a ‘doss’!! Aviation Tech is a BSc and Aero Eng is a BEng, you can draw your own conclusions as to required intelligence and workload from that!
I could go on, however if anyone genuinely wants an insight into the Leeds course or CTC (excluding the ‘can you please write my application/what should I say if they ask me this/how do I practise for this/can you tie my shoes before I go to stage 2’ questions) then please feel free to PM me.
Pre3