Degree Courses with Aviation Studies (Leeds, Liverpool, London Metropolitan etc)
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Atpl's At London Met
Hello All,
Just trying to find anyone who is going to be on my course at London Met in March for the ATPL'S??
I'm looking to possibly share a flat with someone from March 07 thru to November. Or even if you have already been on the course and can recomend any where to stay?? B&B, Hotel or Flat share.
Your help guys would be much appreciated.
B Regards
Dan
Just trying to find anyone who is going to be on my course at London Met in March for the ATPL'S??
I'm looking to possibly share a flat with someone from March 07 thru to November. Or even if you have already been on the course and can recomend any where to stay?? B&B, Hotel or Flat share.
Your help guys would be much appreciated.
B Regards
Dan
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Aerospace Engineering w/ Pilot Studies.
Has anyone come across Aerospace Engineering w/pilot studies at Liverpool Uni?
Need some advice off anyone who's attending or attended.
Thanks chaps!
Need some advice off anyone who's attending or attended.
Thanks chaps!
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Don't think I'm the only one who's been bitten by this one...here's some things you might want to bear in mind. If you want to become an Engineer, do Aerospace Engineering, if you want to be a Pilot and dont really like complex-ish maths then steer well clear of it.
My opinion (for what it's worth) is that the 'with Pilot Studies' bit is to draw people interested in flying into the Eng courses.
The original plan was to deliver the groundschool for the PPL in yr.1 (alongside the Eng. course) whilst facilitating flying training by making a gap a week in the timetable in which you could go and learn to fly. Year 2 is intended to deliver the ATPL groundschool (alongside the Eng. course again). University requirement for students is that they expect 20hrs flying to be completed by the end of year 1, and any other flying is off students' own backs. All fees are paid by the student.
Positive Feedback: Liverpool is a highly thought of University, the Engineering department one of the top few in the country. If you want to learn to fly, then getting your head in the PPL books from the word go is a good way to go, the timetabled slots get you off your backside to go along to the airport. If you want to be an Aerospace engineer and would like to see how the engineering is put into practice (and have some cash set aside) then a few flying hours may prove useful. Ravenair (the FTO) also have a fairly good reputation for flying training.
Practical Feedback: The PPL Groundschool is relatively straightforward, and many people find it easy to just read the books for themselves and take the exams. Conversely, the ATPL groundschool (read other threads on here) whilst not being the most complex technically, is a real minefield, very time consuming and not really a practical idea alongside the degree course, particularly to all be done in the period Sept-May.
Other things complicate this - not all the GS subjects are covered (Air Law, Flight Planning and maybe 1 or 2 others are not) which means less content, however, the University material is based upon the Bristol syllabus but does not fit in with Bristol's 'frame' structure. The Uni sets internal examinations on the subjects covered, but if you want to sit the CAA exams you will find doing the Bristol course at the same time a massive push. Oh, and you'll find that the dates for Bristol's revision courses and the CAA exams fall in term-time on the whole, therefore a couple of 2-3 week periods will need to be found somewhere if you want to do the exams proper. It's a nightmare to co-ordinate, trust me!
Bear in mind also that the GS subjects will be taught by University staff, therefore not necessarily people who are experienced in aviation, mainly experienced engineering lecturers. Time constraints also mean that in the region of two 45 minute sessions per week are devoted to this, therefore the onus is on the student to self-study.
Advice to anybody thinking of doing the course: The 'Pilot Studies' bit is an aside, and not the main part of the course. The University are a 'middle man' and therefore play only a small part in your training. Other than allowing space in the timetable for students who wish to go flying, they don't do very much more. The degree itself is a hard one, but a good one if you like engineering. When you go to the open days, don't be drawn in by the wind tunnels, lasers, jet engines etc etc., just be prepared to do a LOT of maths.
Anyone who wants more specific advice feel free to PM me.
Regards,
A38
My opinion (for what it's worth) is that the 'with Pilot Studies' bit is to draw people interested in flying into the Eng courses.
The original plan was to deliver the groundschool for the PPL in yr.1 (alongside the Eng. course) whilst facilitating flying training by making a gap a week in the timetable in which you could go and learn to fly. Year 2 is intended to deliver the ATPL groundschool (alongside the Eng. course again). University requirement for students is that they expect 20hrs flying to be completed by the end of year 1, and any other flying is off students' own backs. All fees are paid by the student.
Positive Feedback: Liverpool is a highly thought of University, the Engineering department one of the top few in the country. If you want to learn to fly, then getting your head in the PPL books from the word go is a good way to go, the timetabled slots get you off your backside to go along to the airport. If you want to be an Aerospace engineer and would like to see how the engineering is put into practice (and have some cash set aside) then a few flying hours may prove useful. Ravenair (the FTO) also have a fairly good reputation for flying training.
Practical Feedback: The PPL Groundschool is relatively straightforward, and many people find it easy to just read the books for themselves and take the exams. Conversely, the ATPL groundschool (read other threads on here) whilst not being the most complex technically, is a real minefield, very time consuming and not really a practical idea alongside the degree course, particularly to all be done in the period Sept-May.
Other things complicate this - not all the GS subjects are covered (Air Law, Flight Planning and maybe 1 or 2 others are not) which means less content, however, the University material is based upon the Bristol syllabus but does not fit in with Bristol's 'frame' structure. The Uni sets internal examinations on the subjects covered, but if you want to sit the CAA exams you will find doing the Bristol course at the same time a massive push. Oh, and you'll find that the dates for Bristol's revision courses and the CAA exams fall in term-time on the whole, therefore a couple of 2-3 week periods will need to be found somewhere if you want to do the exams proper. It's a nightmare to co-ordinate, trust me!
Bear in mind also that the GS subjects will be taught by University staff, therefore not necessarily people who are experienced in aviation, mainly experienced engineering lecturers. Time constraints also mean that in the region of two 45 minute sessions per week are devoted to this, therefore the onus is on the student to self-study.
Advice to anybody thinking of doing the course: The 'Pilot Studies' bit is an aside, and not the main part of the course. The University are a 'middle man' and therefore play only a small part in your training. Other than allowing space in the timetable for students who wish to go flying, they don't do very much more. The degree itself is a hard one, but a good one if you like engineering. When you go to the open days, don't be drawn in by the wind tunnels, lasers, jet engines etc etc., just be prepared to do a LOT of maths.
Anyone who wants more specific advice feel free to PM me.
Regards,
A38
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I have been heavily involved in designing and running an equivalent course to Liverpools - and in fact deliver lectures on the two other English universities "with pilot studies" courses (Brunel and Sheffield), so am probably better placed than most to talk about this. [There is also an aeronautical science with pilot studies course at Leeds, but I'm very sceptical about that one - I think it's academically lightweight whilst still only providing flying training to PPL.]
Incidentally, apart from the Leeds course, the others are all substantially doing the same thing, so don't worry about the difference in names - it really is just names.
Firstly yes, there is definitely an element amongst cynical and cash-hungry university senior management which uses this to try and drag students who are primarily interested into flying into engineering courses. Simultaneously however, I've seen an equally strong interest amongst many students (and more so, their parents) to find a compromise between wanting a good degree, and wanting to fly - so it's not totally cynical.
These courses are very hard work - learning engineering is tough, learning to fly is tough, learning both at once is very tough. That said, my experience is that the students who go on these courses are generally much more motivated than the average undergrad - and motivation and peer-support often count for far more than aptitude alone. At Sheffield for example, their students routinely get much higher marks than students of other courses - who have attended the same engineering lectures and take the same exams.
If the PPL is early in the course it also provides a fantastic basis for a genuine understanding of aeronautics that you don't get on a pure "engineering only" course taught mostly by academics with no real aeronautical experience. I think that this produces much better engineers anyhow.
The biggest headache that all of the courses suffer (as suggested below), is finding ways in which to effectively integrate the flying and engineering rather than have them co-existing as separate entities. Personally I think this is done best by Brunel, and least well by Sheffield - Liverpool are somewhere in between.
Another issue is that of the students who really just want to be airline pilots who realise part way through that's all they really want to do. Brunel is at the moment trying to deal with this by arranging an ATPL groundschool bolt-on which should be up and running next year, and there's something similar already on (less technically based) courses at City and BCUC, but I don't think that Liverpool and Sheffield are going in that direction.
Why do these courses? - after all, it's 3+ years of damned hard work, costing a lot of money. Well, I'd argue that...
- It provides both a degree, and a start on flying training
- The flying component is relatively small compared to the overall student debt you'll end up with these days anyway
- They are all being run by damned good universities
- If you want to work in aerospace / aviation, but you aren't all that sure about doing what, by the end of one of these courses you should have a damned good idea of what you want to do, and the abilities and bits of paper to get your foot firmly in the door of whichever profession in this wonderful field you want to pursue. There are so many fascinating jobs in aviation - ATC, RAF, Fleet Air Arm, aviation management, aviation insurance, air accident investigation, airport design, aeronautical researcher.... all of which could potentially be reached with a course like this as a starting point.
If you'd like to discuss further, I'm happy to do so here, or PM me.
G
Incidentally, apart from the Leeds course, the others are all substantially doing the same thing, so don't worry about the difference in names - it really is just names.
Firstly yes, there is definitely an element amongst cynical and cash-hungry university senior management which uses this to try and drag students who are primarily interested into flying into engineering courses. Simultaneously however, I've seen an equally strong interest amongst many students (and more so, their parents) to find a compromise between wanting a good degree, and wanting to fly - so it's not totally cynical.
These courses are very hard work - learning engineering is tough, learning to fly is tough, learning both at once is very tough. That said, my experience is that the students who go on these courses are generally much more motivated than the average undergrad - and motivation and peer-support often count for far more than aptitude alone. At Sheffield for example, their students routinely get much higher marks than students of other courses - who have attended the same engineering lectures and take the same exams.
If the PPL is early in the course it also provides a fantastic basis for a genuine understanding of aeronautics that you don't get on a pure "engineering only" course taught mostly by academics with no real aeronautical experience. I think that this produces much better engineers anyhow.
The biggest headache that all of the courses suffer (as suggested below), is finding ways in which to effectively integrate the flying and engineering rather than have them co-existing as separate entities. Personally I think this is done best by Brunel, and least well by Sheffield - Liverpool are somewhere in between.
Another issue is that of the students who really just want to be airline pilots who realise part way through that's all they really want to do. Brunel is at the moment trying to deal with this by arranging an ATPL groundschool bolt-on which should be up and running next year, and there's something similar already on (less technically based) courses at City and BCUC, but I don't think that Liverpool and Sheffield are going in that direction.
Why do these courses? - after all, it's 3+ years of damned hard work, costing a lot of money. Well, I'd argue that...
- It provides both a degree, and a start on flying training
- The flying component is relatively small compared to the overall student debt you'll end up with these days anyway
- They are all being run by damned good universities
- If you want to work in aerospace / aviation, but you aren't all that sure about doing what, by the end of one of these courses you should have a damned good idea of what you want to do, and the abilities and bits of paper to get your foot firmly in the door of whichever profession in this wonderful field you want to pursue. There are so many fascinating jobs in aviation - ATC, RAF, Fleet Air Arm, aviation management, aviation insurance, air accident investigation, airport design, aeronautical researcher.... all of which could potentially be reached with a course like this as a starting point.
If you'd like to discuss further, I'm happy to do so here, or PM me.
G
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Thanks for the replys folks.
The main issue I've got is finding out what I get for the time/money/crammed schedule. I'm struggling to dicipher the blurb and get down to how much I can actually complete in the three years and how it all fits together..
From the engineering dep. writeup on the course;
"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."
This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?
At the moment the only problem is getting the £35,000, as I cannot just get a personal loan for that amount. This is why the other thread was set up (cheers uuili) to talk more specifically about finance.
Airbus38 are you in the course atm?
Dave
The main issue I've got is finding out what I get for the time/money/crammed schedule. I'm struggling to dicipher the blurb and get down to how much I can actually complete in the three years and how it all fits together..
From the engineering dep. writeup on the course;
"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."
This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?
At the moment the only problem is getting the £35,000, as I cannot just get a personal loan for that amount. This is why the other thread was set up (cheers uuili) to talk more specifically about finance.
Airbus38 are you in the course atm?
Dave
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Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, but I've a few questions that are probably relevant here.
Do you think it is an advantage for someone who aims to work in the aviation industry, as an engineer or otherwise, to have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering rather than Mechanical Engineering? I know the two disciplines are very similar.
I'll give you a bit of background info on the courses/colleges I'm thinking about:
1 - A top university with a very highly reputable mech eng department. They have an excellent course, facilities, final year project opportunities. Students perform very well in international eng competitions. Grads have gone to work in top aeronautical and aerospace companies.
2 - A good university with a really good rep for aero eng, especially with the big players in the aviation industry. They have a lot more modules in their course focussed on preparing grads for industry and half a year is spent in industry. I'm a bit concerned that the course mightn't be as deep as the others because of this. That's why I think a mech eng degree might be better, but I'd like your opinions.
3 - A college (doesn't have university status) with an excellent reputation for engineering. They have an excellent mech course, there is a bit more practical work than the universities, and there is a very strong emphasis on teaching. Students perform excellently in international engineering competitions. I think that the final year projects in this college are done in more depth than universities. Grads have gone to and have had highly successful careers in top aeronautical engineering companies and have pursued further study in top engineering universities.
On a personal level, if I go to no. 3, it'll mean having to stay at home for college - I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing at the moment. They all have a great atmosphere and are enjoyable places to learn.
I know I rambled on a bit there, but if you have an opinion on any of the (nameless) colleges, please share.
Thanks
Do you think it is an advantage for someone who aims to work in the aviation industry, as an engineer or otherwise, to have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering rather than Mechanical Engineering? I know the two disciplines are very similar.
I'll give you a bit of background info on the courses/colleges I'm thinking about:
1 - A top university with a very highly reputable mech eng department. They have an excellent course, facilities, final year project opportunities. Students perform very well in international eng competitions. Grads have gone to work in top aeronautical and aerospace companies.
2 - A good university with a really good rep for aero eng, especially with the big players in the aviation industry. They have a lot more modules in their course focussed on preparing grads for industry and half a year is spent in industry. I'm a bit concerned that the course mightn't be as deep as the others because of this. That's why I think a mech eng degree might be better, but I'd like your opinions.
3 - A college (doesn't have university status) with an excellent reputation for engineering. They have an excellent mech course, there is a bit more practical work than the universities, and there is a very strong emphasis on teaching. Students perform excellently in international engineering competitions. I think that the final year projects in this college are done in more depth than universities. Grads have gone to and have had highly successful careers in top aeronautical engineering companies and have pursued further study in top engineering universities.
On a personal level, if I go to no. 3, it'll mean having to stay at home for college - I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing at the moment. They all have a great atmosphere and are enjoyable places to learn.
I know I rambled on a bit there, but if you have an opinion on any of the (nameless) colleges, please share.
Thanks
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This might not help as i am a little bitter towards such schemes.
I did this for just under 12 weeks at another uni, it was a joke, i had been warned, but i decided i knew better, i cant really comment more but now i am doing just the Engineering at another Uni, its so much better, and there is plenty of time to do the pilot studys on my own and my own way in my own time and all that.
Having been to a top uni, i can say they are not all what they are said to be, the whole environment didnt suite me at all, it wasnt friendly, wasnt really liad back, it wasnt me.
I am doing Mechanical and Aero Eng, Mech is very very similar to Aero, but some of the disertations are going to be based on Aviation Eng rather than just General Eng. Maths and Physics in the course are more or less at a good A Level standard, they are at times made harder by the way they are laid out, once the teacher has broken them down for a few minutes you tend to get how to start looking at the maths problems.
I have only GCSE Maths and Physics, and so far have not really had problems with any of the materials
This is what i am doing
MEng in Mech Aero Eng and then onto Integrated FTE/OAT
I could at this stage go to FTE/OAT and transfer my credits to open uni and take there Mech Eng course.
Or
I could stay put and do a modular atpl.
I am sticking this year out, then i might go Integrated and transfer my credits to open uni to finish my degree, even though its not quite the same.
Just read what these pilots study courses are all about, and what the pilot study part cuts out of the Aero Eng content, as i seen some courses that cut some useful stuff out, and if i can see that, so can employers.
Listen to GTE and what he said, i listened to him, and glad i did for many resons, i am happy on Mech and Aero Eng, and happy i got shot of the pilot study part, but, make your own choice otherwise you may just go into uni regretting you didnt take it, they must work for some or they wouldnt offer the course.
Oh one more thing, they say what they offer on the Uni websites, i think the better of the bunch is the one in Conjunction with Stapleford, its London Met i think, thats ATPL where as some like Leeds and Brunel offer just the PPL as the pilot study part.
I doubt that this type of degree will land me an airline job, or even help it, i am doing it for a fall back plan, nothing more, nothing less, dont take a degree thinking its going to help get on the flight deck, as far as i can see and read, it aint going to help. What i can see is that been a star pupil at flight school and getting a recomendation, first passes and high passes is what may help you stand out to airlines, that and persistance with CV's and application forms.
As for Liverpool uni, just went ski-ing with those guys, they are seem to love it there, so no probs with how the uni is run or works
I did this for just under 12 weeks at another uni, it was a joke, i had been warned, but i decided i knew better, i cant really comment more but now i am doing just the Engineering at another Uni, its so much better, and there is plenty of time to do the pilot studys on my own and my own way in my own time and all that.
Having been to a top uni, i can say they are not all what they are said to be, the whole environment didnt suite me at all, it wasnt friendly, wasnt really liad back, it wasnt me.
I am doing Mechanical and Aero Eng, Mech is very very similar to Aero, but some of the disertations are going to be based on Aviation Eng rather than just General Eng. Maths and Physics in the course are more or less at a good A Level standard, they are at times made harder by the way they are laid out, once the teacher has broken them down for a few minutes you tend to get how to start looking at the maths problems.
I have only GCSE Maths and Physics, and so far have not really had problems with any of the materials
This is what i am doing
MEng in Mech Aero Eng and then onto Integrated FTE/OAT
I could at this stage go to FTE/OAT and transfer my credits to open uni and take there Mech Eng course.
Or
I could stay put and do a modular atpl.
I am sticking this year out, then i might go Integrated and transfer my credits to open uni to finish my degree, even though its not quite the same.
Just read what these pilots study courses are all about, and what the pilot study part cuts out of the Aero Eng content, as i seen some courses that cut some useful stuff out, and if i can see that, so can employers.
Listen to GTE and what he said, i listened to him, and glad i did for many resons, i am happy on Mech and Aero Eng, and happy i got shot of the pilot study part, but, make your own choice otherwise you may just go into uni regretting you didnt take it, they must work for some or they wouldnt offer the course.
Oh one more thing, they say what they offer on the Uni websites, i think the better of the bunch is the one in Conjunction with Stapleford, its London Met i think, thats ATPL where as some like Leeds and Brunel offer just the PPL as the pilot study part.
I doubt that this type of degree will land me an airline job, or even help it, i am doing it for a fall back plan, nothing more, nothing less, dont take a degree thinking its going to help get on the flight deck, as far as i can see and read, it aint going to help. What i can see is that been a star pupil at flight school and getting a recomendation, first passes and high passes is what may help you stand out to airlines, that and persistance with CV's and application forms.
As for Liverpool uni, just went ski-ing with those guys, they are seem to love it there, so no probs with how the uni is run or works
From the engineering dep. writeup on the course;
"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."
This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?
"Those students have the option then the option then to follow the full fATPL flight training program in years 2 and 3, the cost of which is approximately £35,000."
This was what almost sold it to me as I want that compromise you were talking about Genghis. I'm really looking to get this degree and get my foot into the engineering industry while I hourbuild, pay off debt and discover whether I want to fly commerically or engineer and become an intructor in my spare time etc. Here's a bit of a dumbass question but to get your fATPL unforzen do you need minimum PiC hours, Type hours, or just a type rating?
- Degree: £9.2k tuition fees + books and living costs
- NPPL: £5.5k
- JAR PPL top-up flying: £1.5k
- ATPL groundschool: £5k (residential)
That'll get you to graduation, then to have hope of an airline job, you'll need:
- About 200 hrs P1
- CPL(A)/Multi course
- IR
- MCC course
These you can price up easily enough by looking around the web or at adverts the back of flying magazines.
Talking of career options, since apparently my opinion carries some weight (scares me that!), I'll offer mine as somebody with a reasonable background both in professional flying and engineering.
- If you have no intention of being anything but an airline pilot, don't waste your time with a degree.
- If you are uncertain about what career you are going for, but definitely want a fun job in aviation (either military or civil) - these courses are probably for you.
- If your primary interest is in becoming an Engineer, personally I'd still recommend them (an engineer who knows how to fly is a much better engineer), but start to question whether the ATPL bolt-on such as the one I'm developing is genuinely useful. (On the other hand, it's impossible for an Engineer to know too much about aeroplanes.)
G
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As usual from Genghis, a very apposite post. And very candid given that you're preparing an Engineering/Flying programme at the moment!
My view is that these programmes should produce a more rounded individual, an 'aeronaut' rather than just an engineer or a pilot alone. But.....the aero degree is serious overkill for an ATPL; ATPL theory nowhere near comes close in my opinion, to any kind of degree equivalence (knowing how many fire extinguishers and oxygen masks are needed in a 232 seat aeroplane for example is hardly going to help you with Navier-Stokes equations or use of PDE's in aeroelastic analyses). I'm not being snobbish or elitist - it's just a statement of fact.
However, there are some good compementary bits that can pull ATPL study and degree-level work together - like in performance why 1.32 Vimd is 1.32 (you just have to know it for ATPL, not where it comes from).
So on balance I think such programmes are a good thing if done properly, and done well. Get to see ATPL study in an engineering context, but don't water-down the content and level of the engineering. The latter would be my main anxiety.
But for God's sake don't get any old university academic to teach ATPL - they won't have a clue. A successful engineering/pilot degree course will need at least university staff qualified to PPL level (in my aero eng department, that's 1 out of 16 and most UK uni's are the same); better still get someone who's 'demonstrated ATPL theoretical knowledge' ie done the writtens. Even rarer (I know 3 in the UK, I'm one, but there may be more).
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.
'IM applies Kevlar to vital regions, and steps back for incoming......
My view is that these programmes should produce a more rounded individual, an 'aeronaut' rather than just an engineer or a pilot alone. But.....the aero degree is serious overkill for an ATPL; ATPL theory nowhere near comes close in my opinion, to any kind of degree equivalence (knowing how many fire extinguishers and oxygen masks are needed in a 232 seat aeroplane for example is hardly going to help you with Navier-Stokes equations or use of PDE's in aeroelastic analyses). I'm not being snobbish or elitist - it's just a statement of fact.
However, there are some good compementary bits that can pull ATPL study and degree-level work together - like in performance why 1.32 Vimd is 1.32 (you just have to know it for ATPL, not where it comes from).
So on balance I think such programmes are a good thing if done properly, and done well. Get to see ATPL study in an engineering context, but don't water-down the content and level of the engineering. The latter would be my main anxiety.
But for God's sake don't get any old university academic to teach ATPL - they won't have a clue. A successful engineering/pilot degree course will need at least university staff qualified to PPL level (in my aero eng department, that's 1 out of 16 and most UK uni's are the same); better still get someone who's 'demonstrated ATPL theoretical knowledge' ie done the writtens. Even rarer (I know 3 in the UK, I'm one, but there may be more).
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.
'IM applies Kevlar to vital regions, and steps back for incoming......
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Decision at last
I think I'm going to go for my PPL in the next 18 month and get some hours logged,
do an aerospace engineering degree (as i do love engineering),
fly with the local airfield whilst at Uni if money permits,
use this to get myself a secure graduate job,
pay off my uni debt (whilsts PPLing over the country),
then go for the full on fATPL when I can secure funding.
Amen
do an aerospace engineering degree (as i do love engineering),
fly with the local airfield whilst at Uni if money permits,
use this to get myself a secure graduate job,
pay off my uni debt (whilsts PPLing over the country),
then go for the full on fATPL when I can secure funding.
Amen
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If you want to do engineering and fly (amongst other fantastic oppourtunities) join the University Air Squadron. If you have any questions about it, pm me. I'll be happy to explain.
Good luck in what ever you decide to do.
Ghostie
Good luck in what ever you decide to do.
Ghostie
For those who hadn't guessed, I-M and I have a fair and friendly history of open technical discussion with each other!, as well as fairly similar professional roles and backgrounds....
Candour is, IMHO, vital. Nobody gains from students doing courses for which they aren't suited.
I partly agree with you there. ATPL is a very different beast from a degree. A degree is primarily about in-depth understanding, research, analysis, and use of information. An ATPL is about learning and being able to reproduce large amounts of important information, but only to a specific level. The former is more important to an Engineer, the latter to a professional Pilot - but neither loses out by having the other skillset I'd argue.
Yes !
Agree completely. The scheme I'm trying to set up (I'll tell you about it over a dram sometime) will bring in ATPL groundschool during the university long vacations - so it's student holidays that will suffer, not core degree content. (At-least, if we get it right!)
And CAA wouldn't permit it anyway - people teaching ATPL have to have equivalent qualifications, and operate under a CAA approval.
I confess, I only went for CPL myself - since whilst I love my flying and engineering, I've no use for an IR in the flying I do - which is the primary difference, also the odds of my wishing to, or anybody asking me to, fly left hand seat in an airliner with pax on board are as near nil as makes no difference.
But, I agree with the sentiment totally. Too many UK universities try to teach flying-related subjects without having sufficient in-house aviation knowledge. Similarly most UK aeronautical universities have flight simulators - and little or no real knowledge about either simulation or aircraft operations: so what do they think they're going to teach with these expensive ornaments?
You'll have to try harder than that to cause offence I-M !
G
My view is that these programmes should produce a more rounded individual, an 'aeronaut' rather than just an engineer or a pilot alone. But.....the aero degree is serious overkill for an ATPL; ATPL theory nowhere near comes close in my opinion, to any kind of degree equivalence (knowing how many fire extinguishers and oxygen masks are needed in a 232 seat aeroplane for example is hardly going to help you with Navier-Stokes equations or use of PDE's in aeroelastic analyses). I'm not being snobbish or elitist - it's just a statement of fact.
A successful engineering/pilot degree course will need at least university staff qualified to PPL level (in my aero eng department, that's 1 out of 16 and most UK uni's are the same); better still get someone who's 'demonstrated ATPL theoretical knowledge' ie done the writtens. Even rarer (I know 3 in the UK, I'm one, but there may be more).
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.
Until then, as far as I'm concerned the jury's out on the usefulness and the value of such degree-level courses.
But, I agree with the sentiment totally. Too many UK universities try to teach flying-related subjects without having sufficient in-house aviation knowledge. Similarly most UK aeronautical universities have flight simulators - and little or no real knowledge about either simulation or aircraft operations: so what do they think they're going to teach with these expensive ornaments?
G
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University of Leeds - aviation degree
Hi,
Can anyone give me any inside info on the Leeds aviation degree, specifically whether the papers are any good, whether anyone who has done the degree has had a good response when training or applying for a job, etc.
Are the lecturers any good?
Thank you.
Can anyone give me any inside info on the Leeds aviation degree, specifically whether the papers are any good, whether anyone who has done the degree has had a good response when training or applying for a job, etc.
Are the lecturers any good?
Thank you.
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League Tables
From the UCAS website;
"Our study facilities
The course is run by the School of Process, Environmental and Materials Engineering."
I don't know much about the specific course at Leeds (other than the actual uni has a good rep), however here is the table for aeronautical engineering souced from the "Times online - Good University Guide" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,6734,00.html click on aeronautical eng)
Good luck with applications TruthSlayer, after a fair bit of research I reckon getting a degree first sounds like the best bet (I'm going for aerospace eng).
Dave
"Our study facilities
The course is run by the School of Process, Environmental and Materials Engineering."
I don't know much about the specific course at Leeds (other than the actual uni has a good rep), however here is the table for aeronautical engineering souced from the "Times online - Good University Guide" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,6734,00.html click on aeronautical eng)
Good luck with applications TruthSlayer, after a fair bit of research I reckon getting a degree first sounds like the best bet (I'm going for aerospace eng).
Dave
Last edited by Kerosine; 10th Jan 2007 at 07:50. Reason: Table formatting was lost, inserted link instead
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Universities
Hello there all
I have heard that there are universities that do all the ATPL theory as part of there aerospace engineering course. Does anyone have specific details as to which uni is the best for this course and which actually do the theory as well. It would be most appreciated if anyone with experience of these types of universities could help out, or even if someone just has any information regarding this topic.
Anyone with information regarding Plymouth's course would be most welcome to post about their experiences
thanks in advance
Mohammed
I have heard that there are universities that do all the ATPL theory as part of there aerospace engineering course. Does anyone have specific details as to which uni is the best for this course and which actually do the theory as well. It would be most appreciated if anyone with experience of these types of universities could help out, or even if someone just has any information regarding this topic.
Anyone with information regarding Plymouth's course would be most welcome to post about their experiences
thanks in advance
Mohammed
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Leeds do an excellent and rather unique 'aviation and pilot studies' course. Im at Leeds uni (not doing aviation), but have friends on the course who cant recommend it highly enough...
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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