ComeFlyWithB

Hi all,

I’m 8 and a bit hours into my ppl but planning ahead for hour building already. Assuming Ill need around the 90hr Mark (incl night rating) post ppl to be able to start my CPL and so on I’m a wondering if it might possibly be cheaper to buy a share in a 150/152 like I’m learning in or similar. I plan on doing most of the hours in a 2 seater to keep costs down with the occoasinal hour in a 4 taking the parents up etc

My schools charges for ppl hire are £70 monthly and around £95 per hour including landing fees or £142 per hour if you don’t wish to pay a monthly standing order. Would buying a share work out cheaper ??

Thanks in advance

Genghis the Engineer

Almost certainly, yes it would - the big question is whether a syndicate wants an hour builder. Some will, some won't.

Also bear in mind that once you have your hours, you still have the share. That may be great as you can just keep flying it as you wish for recreation or currency, or may be a millstone you can't get rid of without discounting it quite a lot. That basically comes down to what you want.

What's not often talked about is that the "price" you pay for your cheap syndicate flying is occasional prolonged downtime whilst some problem or other is resolved, and being expected to put some time into things like providing unskilled support to maintenance, or cleaning the aeroplane. As a serial (and often parallel) syndicate owner, that's always been fine with me, but you need to go into it with your eyes open. Also look at both the useage of the aeroplane, and the characters and behaviours of the existing syndicate members - in particular getting stuck in a syndicate with a few problematic personalities can be a complete pain in the backside (whilst with a good syndicate, pretty much any aircraft problem is solveable).

I would suggest if you are going commercial that you buy a share in something with a half decent avionics fit, as that will provide you with something useful as you get into instrument and night flying and want to build particularly relevant experience. The C152 is a good basic training aeroplane, but you may find other types that will be more futureproof for your needs.

G

Maoraigh1

I pay £60 per hour wet in a Group Jodel Dr1050. Landing fees are extra. £95 wet, including landings, looks good IF availability allows you to make the monthly cover enough hours.
Have you considered leasing for your hours build?
(My plane has been U/S since January, and we'll be lucky to fly this year. Not a disaster for me, a shareholder since January 1990.)

ComeFlyWithB

Thanks for the reply , So after glancing over the actual costs at my flying school I'd be looking at the following, note - the equity scheme works out worthwhile only when flying 2hrs or more a month which I intend and hopefully will be able to do so.

2 seat:
£142 per/hr
£10-£13 Landing fee
£4 per Touch & go

I haven't added circuit fees into the equation but they're a few pounds.

4 seat:
£167 per/hr
£14-£16 Landing fee
£5 Touch & go

Now taking the group equity scheme into consideration the figures work out as the following:

Standing Order:
£70 Monthly (2 seat)
Or
£110 monthly (All A/C)

Hourly Rates:
£82 - 150/152 like I'm learning in
£104 - 172 (4 seater)

Landing fees and touch and go remain the same. Meaning £95 hourly plus the standing order of £70 as I'm intending on keeping the costs down.

Basing my estimates on the fact that I'll pass my PPL in (hopefully) 50-55hrs (current estimation from my instructor) and including the 5hr Night Rating I'll need 85/90hrs at a rough cost of £8,075 - £8550 in a 2 seat A/C incl landing fees plus the monthly standing order of £70 x around 16. Flying 4-8 hours in round figures a month but maybe more or less depending on routes and so on. I plan to coincide my hour building with my ATPLs but get a head start on the hours so I'm not doing too much all in one but rather a gradual progression. Hoping to complete my PPL by summer then start hour building fairly soon after that before commencing ATPLS in November 18/Jan 19.

I guess the real question is just how much cheaper would a share be IF they're would be anyone willing to take in a new hour builder and also the availability of said A/C on both fronts.

ComeFlyWithB

Thanks for replying genghis, valid point indeed. Down the line (no pun intended) and IF I am successful in finding myself in the RHS of a jet whether it be passenger or cargo initially I'd still like to keep the SEP rating for the odd hour here and there on a sunny weekend with the better half or parents/friends although admittedly nowhere near as aggressive as the amount of hours with hour building probably a couple hours a month maximum although that is at best a guesstimate.

How much does a share cost ? I appreciate its not a straightforward question as many variables are involved but I'm just trying to get rough figures together so I know how hard / long / many jobs I need to work to have everything in place within a timely fashion. It might be a case that it doesn't work out cost effective as being relatively new still I have literally no idea what a share costs. I personally wouldn't mind the helping / cleaning aspect as Id find it an opportunity to meet people and make contacts but I agree with the problematic personality types issue as a major con.

I hadn't actually considered future-proofing as it were however it does make complete sense maybe a 172 with a garmin1000 would fit the bill well ready for IR and what not ?

ComeFlyWithB

Apologies for the lack of knowledge but how does leasing work ? similar to a car I assume ? What costs would be involved to your knowledge ?

Genghis the Engineer

I'm at the other end of the country, but down my way we have some syndicates with a friendly relationship with a flying school. Some people have bought their share, then saved a great deal of money learning on the aeroplane - then of course they carry on in an aeroplane they're already very familiar with.

It might be worth asking whether any such arrangements exist up your way?

Regarding how much does it cost? - have a browse here, which is my favourite window shopping site...

https://afors.com/index.php?page=bro...AERO&cat=GROUP

G

2hotwot

There is a lot of balancing of time against cost to be done.

Groups - other members may want the aeroplane on good days, and maybe to take it away. Availability of aeroplane has to tie in with availability of instructor. Cheap group financing may leave you exposed to unexpected expenses i.e. breakdown repairs or for maintenance. Breakdowns can take longer to fix with no alternate aeroplane available for the duration, meaning you may not be able to fly for a month or more. You will have to pay an instructor their 'private' rate.

Clubs - Probably have access to more than one aircraft so maintenance downtime/unavailability is minimised or eliminated. Instructor will almost always be available at the same time as the aeroplane. Costs are fixed per hour flown and will be realistic to the actual running cost of the operation. The cost per hour for the instructor may well be cheaper. Clubs want to get you into the air as often as possible.

My experience is that you cannot run something like a 150 cheaper than club hourly rates.

The advantage of a group aeroplane over club hire is mainly that you can take it away, for example, for a day and only fly for an hour. There is also of course the pleasure of ownership.

I would say learn at a good club and think about ownership when the licence arrives.

Maoraigh1

Leasing: the deal will vary, but you have the aircraft for a period of time, and guarantee to fly a number of hours. Ideal for a serious hours builder. I saw an advertisement somewhere recently offering a Pa28 for lease.

rightbank

As regards hour builders in a syndicate, I've seen on both sides of this. But having been in your position many years ago I decided to buy the aircraft outright rather than buy a share.

The reason for this was that because I wanted to get as many hours as possible in as short a time as possible, I didn't want another syndicate member getting in the way and flying it when I wanted to. Also I didn't want another syndicate member damaging it which would preclude my using it. If it got damaged then it would only be myself to blame. Plus I figured that after flying my required numbered of hours it would be easier to sell the whole aircraft rather than a share. As it turned out the aircraft was very reliable and I was able to do around 170 hours in four and a half months. I even sold it for a small profit

Fast forward quite a few years and now being a syndicate member, I wouldn't have wanted my younger self in my syndicate because of the reverse of some of the points in the previous paragraph. In essence I would not want a syndicate partner whose only aim was to get as many hours as quickly and cheaply as possible and then move on as quickly as possible.

As a general comment I suspect the average syndicate member probably does around 10-20 hours a year. Obviously some more some less. Get someone in who is now doing 100 or more hours a year and that is bound to lead to friction.

scifi

Hi, are you flying from Manchester International. ! You seem to be paying for a lot of things that most clubs give members for free... Landing Fees, Circuit Fees, T+G Fees ?
I like to fly typically 1.5 hours to a distant airfield, Cup of Tea and Cake, then return via a scenic route, and if there is time do 3 or 4 different circuits to round off the day.
Maybe you should join a club out in the country, where things could work out a lot cheaper, apart from the 30 mile car journey.
You should also be aiming to do the PPL in 45.0 hours, not a minute more not a minute less, or you may not be suited to fly commercially.

Genghis the Engineer

I was in a syndicate with somebody who did that. This might *not* have led to friction, if that person wasn't also completely disinclined to ever lift a finger to help look after the aeroplane - whilst others were putting several weeks a year each into cleaning and maintenance, and giving up time they might have spent flying.

Basically, if you put in as much as you get out, I think you'll be fine in most syndicates. If it's all take, you won't. If it's all give, you'll get pretty peed off yourself. Not being skilled is less of a barrier than you might think, as there are always unskilled tasks that need doing under supervision that help support an aeroplane and keep the bills down.

G

ComeFlyWithB

I’m not learning at Manchester International no, however I am learning within the Greater Manchester area. I intend to do similar flights to yourself when the hour building commences next year. I like the idea of flying in the country however additional travel costs could rule out any benefits.
I am aiming to do the PPL in 45hrs or as feasibly close too as possible however a few additional hours can’t be helped when extraneous variables such as weather are taken into account. (No sticking points so far) I’m curious as to why you view anything over 45hrs potentially unsuitable for commercial ? I’d conpletely agree if it was taking an individual 90hrs or more to perhaps reconsider the ‘dream’ however so few hours over the minimum I’m curious to hear your views.

B

ComeFlyWithB

Agreed. It’s evident that issues *could* arise if an hour builder such as my future self was to behave in such a way and upset the apple cart as it were when the syndicate / group are a happy bunch flying the odd pleasure hours here and there. However I’m not opposed to helping out as much or little as required so there wouldn’t ‘shouldnt’ be any issues on that front.

horizon flyer

I don't think you will save any money it costs what it costs to operate an aircraft, the only advantage is flexibility. There will be a monthly standing charge and fuel plus operating costs per hour not much different to a club aircraft plus the upfront share cost and are exposed to unforeseen repair costs. Plus you need to be a team player in a group and most groups need 100 hours at least. So I would stick with a club aircraft up to 100 hours at least you can walk away. If they have an up front payment scheme to save some money be very carful clubs fail and take students money with them.

Janu

Senseless sentiments. Your TT at licence issue really is irrelevant and somewhat unfair to infer otherwise.


To the OP, there are generally three options available in the UK: the no-equity scheme, a group share and self-fly hire at a local ATO/flying club. They all have advantages and drawbacks.

It is my opinion that a no-equity group is the most popular route for a modular hour builder. Convenient but perhaps not the cheapest, however, still very affordable on a budget. Generally availability is good and you can keep membership to a minimum, usually 6 months. For a Warrior you're looking at £70 a month and £100 per hour (hobbs) in your area.

Flying schools do offer similar options by nature of necessity and can be competitive. However it's important to consider aircraft availability during the training calendar if this would be a concern for you. Again this is all down to demand. Conversely, bigger schools can and do allocate part of the fleet for hour building particularly mid-week.

Finally, an aircraft equity share is an investment some are able to afford. Nonetheless - as already mentioned - you'll find most are unwilling to welcome hour builders on grounds which are particularly reasonable but perhaps irrelevant here. Some also require 100hrs prior experience etc. One important thing to note is that it can be difficult to shift your share when it comes time to move on. Additionally you may be accountable for unforeseen costs e.g. non-routine engine maintenance on a cracked cylinder head...

The opportunity you mention available at your flying school sounds like a positive mix of all three of the above. Unless you can find a like-minded pilot willing to gamble the cost of a small car on a PA-38 flying on-condition then I think you have a viable solution under your nose.

ComeFlyWithB

After the help from this post and a good deal of researching I am inclined to agree the best solution is right under my nose indeed! No hassle, affordable for the sake of saving a few ££ looking elsewhere and what not. Long as availability at the time is what I need I'm confident I'll stick with this option when the time arises.

artschool

how does weather effect logged hours?

Genghis the Engineer

Prolonged bad weather cancels lessons, longer gaps between lessons slows learning, and means that you tend to need more hours to get to test standard.

G