Quality of newbies
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As an older pilot in GA I have seen many young pilots start their careers in aviation and mostly all had what it takes to succeed. They worked hard, learnt quickly and were professional in their approach. Some were excellent. The few who were not didn't last long. However, none at the outset were totally prepared for what it takes and that included me whose basic ab-initio instruction was back in what many here think were the good old days. The generation Y thing is, I believe, just a rationalisation.
When I think back on my first commercial work the list of basic mistakes appalls me, but apart from some difficulty in getting to grips with a much modified 206, those errors were not related to flying. However, there was some very useful advice about technique that I have utilised ever since. What I saw from many newly minted CPLs' were some basic flying errors. It wasn't unusual at Alice Springs to watch a landing 210 proceed down the runway in a series of overcorrected flares until the excess speed had washed off. A quiet talk about speed control and using the correct approach speed had benefits. Cross-wind technique was another area.
All commercial pilots will require some instruction/mentoring when they start. It is unrealistic to think that a new-start pilot will know what it takes to operate in a remote area. However, schools could look at some changes. One company I worked for had a training arm attached and the CP had an idea that some of our operating problems in Alice Springs should be introduced as desk exercises for CPL students. He was concerned that navigation exercises at CPL level were basically the same as PPL; fill the tanks and off you go, refuel at the other end and return to start. He wanted the students to consider what they needed to do if they were to fly a 3 hour charter with 4 adults in a 210 where there was limited fuel availability. There were a number of scenarios that we came up with. I don't know if the idea was implemented though.
This is a rather long-winded way of saying that the more things change the more they stay the same. Yes, there are problem areas that should be addressed in training but it is unrealistic to expect a fresh CPL will be ready to go from the outset. What should be kept in mind that with the slow-down of airline recruitment, if not outright stalling or even retraction, pilots in GA are going to be there for some time. Some careful mentoring at the outset could have long-term benefits.
When I think back on my first commercial work the list of basic mistakes appalls me, but apart from some difficulty in getting to grips with a much modified 206, those errors were not related to flying. However, there was some very useful advice about technique that I have utilised ever since. What I saw from many newly minted CPLs' were some basic flying errors. It wasn't unusual at Alice Springs to watch a landing 210 proceed down the runway in a series of overcorrected flares until the excess speed had washed off. A quiet talk about speed control and using the correct approach speed had benefits. Cross-wind technique was another area.
All commercial pilots will require some instruction/mentoring when they start. It is unrealistic to think that a new-start pilot will know what it takes to operate in a remote area. However, schools could look at some changes. One company I worked for had a training arm attached and the CP had an idea that some of our operating problems in Alice Springs should be introduced as desk exercises for CPL students. He was concerned that navigation exercises at CPL level were basically the same as PPL; fill the tanks and off you go, refuel at the other end and return to start. He wanted the students to consider what they needed to do if they were to fly a 3 hour charter with 4 adults in a 210 where there was limited fuel availability. There were a number of scenarios that we came up with. I don't know if the idea was implemented though.
This is a rather long-winded way of saying that the more things change the more they stay the same. Yes, there are problem areas that should be addressed in training but it is unrealistic to expect a fresh CPL will be ready to go from the outset. What should be kept in mind that with the slow-down of airline recruitment, if not outright stalling or even retraction, pilots in GA are going to be there for some time. Some careful mentoring at the outset could have long-term benefits.
Last edited by PLovett; 19th Jul 2014 at 07:23.
To me it is not necessarily a Gen Y thing, or anything else regarding the times. Skills are not necessarily in freefall, but there is a level of "cancer" in the training industry brought about by a few latent issues alluded to above.
When I was trained as a flying instructor, I was given a letter from the CFI of the school (which I still have) and I have passed copies of it onto flying intructors, supervisory / training / check pilots that I have trained over time.
I paraphrase:
"You have decided to become a flying instructor. Since this should be the pinnacle of a flying career and not merely the start point, I will outline for you a few basic rules..."
It went on to stipulate that flying skills should be refined, knowledge needs to be accurate and broad, etc, etc.
I thought it was well put and places appropriate perspective on the various niches of our industry. I feel that, unfortunately, the root cause of the problem is that most individuals working through the industry are simply "ticking boxes" to try and get to the magical airline job - which is fine. However, they need to acknowledge that on the way to that job, they will work in various aspects of the industry that will not have a direct correlation to heavy jet RPT - and while ever they are taking pay from GA operators or flying schools, it is their moral and professional obligation to take an active interest in VFR navigation, short field landings or piston engine technical knowledge. That is simply what professionals do. Taking the money, whinging about entitlements and subverting the employer does nothing to strengthen the industry or make it easier for those who will come later.
Therefore it is simply a matter of choice for the individual - actively seek to gain the most broad professional development base possible - and maximise the chance of being one of those airline captains that juniors look up to, or just bide time, tick the box, taxi slowly to get "hours up" and be one of those pilots that simply make up the numbers.
When I look for pilots, who will invariably be in the early phase of their career - I look for the attitude that describes the former.
Approaching GA with the "QANTAS captain in waiting" attitude is dangerous - not only does it put lives at risk, but the livelihood of others coming through too.
I do agree with the earlier thought regarding flight instruction and GA as a career - I think that in certain areas of the industry, we are seeing a few opportunities for just that - with sound lifestyle and good conditions. Hopefully this evolves further...
When I was trained as a flying instructor, I was given a letter from the CFI of the school (which I still have) and I have passed copies of it onto flying intructors, supervisory / training / check pilots that I have trained over time.
I paraphrase:
"You have decided to become a flying instructor. Since this should be the pinnacle of a flying career and not merely the start point, I will outline for you a few basic rules..."
It went on to stipulate that flying skills should be refined, knowledge needs to be accurate and broad, etc, etc.
I thought it was well put and places appropriate perspective on the various niches of our industry. I feel that, unfortunately, the root cause of the problem is that most individuals working through the industry are simply "ticking boxes" to try and get to the magical airline job - which is fine. However, they need to acknowledge that on the way to that job, they will work in various aspects of the industry that will not have a direct correlation to heavy jet RPT - and while ever they are taking pay from GA operators or flying schools, it is their moral and professional obligation to take an active interest in VFR navigation, short field landings or piston engine technical knowledge. That is simply what professionals do. Taking the money, whinging about entitlements and subverting the employer does nothing to strengthen the industry or make it easier for those who will come later.
Therefore it is simply a matter of choice for the individual - actively seek to gain the most broad professional development base possible - and maximise the chance of being one of those airline captains that juniors look up to, or just bide time, tick the box, taxi slowly to get "hours up" and be one of those pilots that simply make up the numbers.
When I look for pilots, who will invariably be in the early phase of their career - I look for the attitude that describes the former.
Approaching GA with the "QANTAS captain in waiting" attitude is dangerous - not only does it put lives at risk, but the livelihood of others coming through too.
I do agree with the earlier thought regarding flight instruction and GA as a career - I think that in certain areas of the industry, we are seeing a few opportunities for just that - with sound lifestyle and good conditions. Hopefully this evolves further...
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Good post FB. A while back, I was having a chat with one of the top drawer CASA FOI's and the subject was raised – in passing – I was interested in that my own 'thoughts' were reflected by the FOI. I forget the name of the report and details now; but it cited the '% loss' of 'knowledge' passed when learning from one with less experience than the original teacher. Sorry if that sounds fluffy, but the research is buried – the gist of it was that if 'you' are taught by a master craftsman almost (for example) 80% of that knowledge will be passed to you. Over time, 'you' will improve and add 'your' knowledge to those lessons, passing this on to the next apprentice, improving and refining the 'original' good training.
The other side of the coin is where the 'masters apprentice' is training the 'new boy'; not only does the trainer not have the 80% basic to pass along; but has had no time on the job to improve and increase the knowledge. Thus the 80% is reduced to 60%, and so on. Until there is only 20% of the original 80% available for distribution. (Example figures only)....
Sorry. I really can't explain it better without reference, I got the idea at the time – but all that remains is the concept. I'm sure some bright spark out there can dredge it up – I thought it valuable at the time and adopted the concept.
Food for thought – just saying...
The other side of the coin is where the 'masters apprentice' is training the 'new boy'; not only does the trainer not have the 80% basic to pass along; but has had no time on the job to improve and increase the knowledge. Thus the 80% is reduced to 60%, and so on. Until there is only 20% of the original 80% available for distribution. (Example figures only)....
Sorry. I really can't explain it better without reference, I got the idea at the time – but all that remains is the concept. I'm sure some bright spark out there can dredge it up – I thought it valuable at the time and adopted the concept.
Food for thought – just saying...
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I suddenly realised it the other day!! Watching reality TV that an airline interview is exactly like an audition for The Voice Australia! Ritual humiliation in front of Wil I Am, Kylie and Ricky to be more special than a hundred other ADHD sufferers.. Or in the case of pilots..obsessive compulsive disorder.
Thanks for the interesting replies. It seems everyone is in agreement we could be training future commercial pilots better.
What will it take to change? Does it need to? Or are we at a point where operators have to accept the extra ICUS needed to get people up to scratch?
What will it take to change? Does it need to? Or are we at a point where operators have to accept the extra ICUS needed to get people up to scratch?
The days of a pilot wanting to make a career out of charter work because they love basic bush work and flying is gone. You can argue it is because the pay is crap, and no one wants to live in isolated areas.
Last time I looked, fair few people flying for the RFDS like what they do. Also get paid fairly competitively for the job too. Guess that's why they make a career out of it. Some of them even live in "isolated areas".
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Have enjoyed this thread and concur with most of it.
I passed my CPL almost 5 years ago. I was ready to take on the world and had my sights set firmly on the Kimberley. A couple of kids and a mortgage later I'm not flying but have a well-paid job in the industry and a significantly different perspective than 5 years ago.
I can honestly say that upon passing my CPL flight test in 09 (despite my excitement at the time) I would have been no where near the standard that operators like Mick pine for. I would've needed every one of the ICUS hours posted here before being able to fly safely and efficiently at the professional standard in the north that paying customers and employers alike deserve.
I pride myself on attitude and professionalism, which has got me to where I am now, albeit not flying. The simple fact is my flight training enabled me to pass my CPL flight test, nothing more nothing less. True, this won't extend to every flight school out there but I used a couple of the more reputable ones at the time and my experience was true for both of them. I learned nothing of proper engine management, no realistic commercial scenarios (other than "brief me, pretend I'm a passenger"), and I hate to say but the majority of the instructors I encountered wouldn't have cared or being able to teach me that anyway. Yes, it was incumbent on me to push for more knowledge, spend time with the engineers and make a lot better use of my solo time. But I didn't, and I still got over the line.
I know for a fact that there are students who make it their business to learn and get as much bang for their buck as they can. I take my hat off, the guys I think of are my age and skippering jets. Clearly, if I was starting my training now I would be twice as thorough as what I was then, even if the syllabus or at least the flight school never pushed it.
Occasionally when I'm at the airport I learnt at I'll notice the army of diploma students with their stripes and badges, taking selfies in front of their aircraft to no doubt post on social media. I wonder where the industry is headed, but at the same time for every 10 of these sort I bet there's at least a couple of mature heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly, in anticipation of their first area solo.
Not sure exactly what my point has been and I've got nothing in the way of any solution, but in a perfect world I would've passed my CPL armed with the knowledge and standard ready to fly professionally. Sadly this wasn't true and I fear for an industry where 'qualified' people are potentially set loose on unsuspecting paying customers when they're no-where near ready. That is, until Mick gets hold of them
I passed my CPL almost 5 years ago. I was ready to take on the world and had my sights set firmly on the Kimberley. A couple of kids and a mortgage later I'm not flying but have a well-paid job in the industry and a significantly different perspective than 5 years ago.
I can honestly say that upon passing my CPL flight test in 09 (despite my excitement at the time) I would have been no where near the standard that operators like Mick pine for. I would've needed every one of the ICUS hours posted here before being able to fly safely and efficiently at the professional standard in the north that paying customers and employers alike deserve.
I pride myself on attitude and professionalism, which has got me to where I am now, albeit not flying. The simple fact is my flight training enabled me to pass my CPL flight test, nothing more nothing less. True, this won't extend to every flight school out there but I used a couple of the more reputable ones at the time and my experience was true for both of them. I learned nothing of proper engine management, no realistic commercial scenarios (other than "brief me, pretend I'm a passenger"), and I hate to say but the majority of the instructors I encountered wouldn't have cared or being able to teach me that anyway. Yes, it was incumbent on me to push for more knowledge, spend time with the engineers and make a lot better use of my solo time. But I didn't, and I still got over the line.
I know for a fact that there are students who make it their business to learn and get as much bang for their buck as they can. I take my hat off, the guys I think of are my age and skippering jets. Clearly, if I was starting my training now I would be twice as thorough as what I was then, even if the syllabus or at least the flight school never pushed it.
Occasionally when I'm at the airport I learnt at I'll notice the army of diploma students with their stripes and badges, taking selfies in front of their aircraft to no doubt post on social media. I wonder where the industry is headed, but at the same time for every 10 of these sort I bet there's at least a couple of mature heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly, in anticipation of their first area solo.
Not sure exactly what my point has been and I've got nothing in the way of any solution, but in a perfect world I would've passed my CPL armed with the knowledge and standard ready to fly professionally. Sadly this wasn't true and I fear for an industry where 'qualified' people are potentially set loose on unsuspecting paying customers when they're no-where near ready. That is, until Mick gets hold of them
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I bet there's at least a couple of naive heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly
*runs for cover*
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One brisk morning I asked the (very new) FO to switch the ice protection on while climbing through a few layers. He promptly fiddles with knobs and comments: 'You know this is pretty cool, I've never flown through cloud before!'
My response was simply
Apparently he did his IFR training during the summer in the southern states and pretty much got the job with my company straight away. Sim was obviously fake weather and the line training was during a prolonged streak of CAVOK.
Needless to say that entire trip consisted of me going
.
Fuel-Off
My response was simply
Apparently he did his IFR training during the summer in the southern states and pretty much got the job with my company straight away. Sim was obviously fake weather and the line training was during a prolonged streak of CAVOK.
Needless to say that entire trip consisted of me going
.Fuel-Off
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I learned nothing of proper engine management, no realistic commercial scenarios (other than "brief me, pretend I'm a passenger"), and I hate to say but the majority of the instructors I encountered wouldn't have cared or being able to teach me that anyway.
Now I do know for sure that the Flying School where I did all of my training, from first trial flight right through to MEIFR rating (and the first four or five renewals) was quite arguably one of the best one in Australia.I got put through 'the works' to put it bluntly. Engine and systems management had a very high priority; Look after Mr Lycoming/Continental and he'll look after you. Abuse or neglect him and watch the **** out was said more than a few times.
Likewise, Commercial scenarios were simulated many times. I still remember quite clearly my apprehension when being told (not asked) to prepare a flight plan for a charter that one of the Instructors was rostered to do in the Twin, and this was still when I was completing my final PPL Navs.
Both the Instructor and CFI/Owner of the Flying School went over the plan with magnifying glasses and it passed muster!
I bet there's at least a couple of mature heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly,
Sadly, this School no longer exists. Time hath passed and age wearieth.
BlatantLiar Consider yourself told!
Flying school i went through treated commercial students as employees, right down to washing and cleaning aeroplanes.
I was very prepared for up north. In fact i didn't know how to use a gps until my first charter when the boss handed me one and said use mine, the wx is a bit dodgy today.
I was an instant convert. However I was very proficient in VFR Nav.
I was very prepared for up north. In fact i didn't know how to use a gps until my first charter when the boss handed me one and said use mine, the wx is a bit dodgy today.
I was an instant convert. However I was very proficient in VFR Nav.
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BlatantLiar Consider yourself told!
Engineers fix and service engines.
Pilots operate engines.
Remember that next time an engineer tells you how to operate one
It'd be like you telling the engineer how to fix one
Pilots operate engines.
Remember that next time an engineer tells you how to operate one
It'd be like you telling the engineer how to fix one
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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My previous post stemmed from the fact that a lot of the things engineers told me about engine management turned out to be incorrect once I did some research for myself by referring to published data.
My experience however has been the opposite. Guess it's the quality of the Engineer you talk to as well!
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Being a "newbie" myself, but being someone who prides themselves on learning the proper way to do things only to have so many sub par students sharing the air.
I cringe every time I head out to the pracise area in my training region. Lack of radio calls, breaking airspace, poor situational awareness for the multitude of other aircraft training. Also, we have a big international group that train here (airlines from China send students here to learn) so the English on the radio is less than desirable and most of the time impossible to understand. How they get their English proficiency tests passed is beyond me.
Take it back to the airport, poor circuits (OVERLY large), floating half way down the runway until touch down, lack of radio calls etc. etc. This is also at one of the busiest training airports in the country (CZBB) in very close proximity to Vancouver International so it always makes for an exciting flight.
I've had a few close encounters in the practice area from people not making calls saying their location and ALT. I'm happy to be done now and not have to fly in the training area or circuit anymore.
I cringe every time I head out to the pracise area in my training region. Lack of radio calls, breaking airspace, poor situational awareness for the multitude of other aircraft training. Also, we have a big international group that train here (airlines from China send students here to learn) so the English on the radio is less than desirable and most of the time impossible to understand. How they get their English proficiency tests passed is beyond me.
Take it back to the airport, poor circuits (OVERLY large), floating half way down the runway until touch down, lack of radio calls etc. etc. This is also at one of the busiest training airports in the country (CZBB) in very close proximity to Vancouver International so it always makes for an exciting flight.
I've had a few close encounters in the practice area from people not making calls saying their location and ALT. I'm happy to be done now and not have to fly in the training area or circuit anymore.
