Quality of newbies

[Manubada]

Career instructors.............

Hey Pinky............


Lets not ever forget the likes of Trevor Weeks (RIP) Now there was a real instructor and one hell of a gent'.


How about Bill Bell (RIP) Another stick n rudder chap that sure knew his product.


Ahh, those were the days.



Manu'

[Kenny Carter]

Manu'

Lets not ever forget the likes of Trevor Weeks (RIP) Now there was a real instructor and one hell of a gent'.

I'll second that. It was a privilege to be taught by him.

Kenny

[pilotchute]

Clare Prop,

Hate to break it to you but your view of what its like back in the "old country" maybe a little bit off the mark now. Your view that "everything is far more professional" in the UK I find is a pretty naive statement by yourself.

The UK flying schools administer aptitude "tests" that virtually nobody fails and the candidate has to pay for the honor to even sit. They are then told that they have been accepted on either one of the 2 big sausage factory schools, "0 to Easy Jet/Ryan Air/Flybe FO for only 100,000 pounds" course. Problem is the schools lie through their teeth and very few get hired at the end out of the hundreds of CPL's they churn out every year. They then have a huge loan they have to pay back or their parents lose a house.

Everything is money driven now. EVERYTHING!!!


As a side note you could have this exact same thread but call it,

"The quality of Newbie police officers" or "Quality of newbie soldiers/sailors"

All of these professions are having a crisis in attracting quality people. I know for a fact that the military now give out a brochure that virtually tells you the interview answers on your testing day. No need to study or do any research.

I agree with getting rid of FEE HELP also. The amount of newbies I met who said they would never have got a licence if it wasn't for fee help scared me. If that easy pot of money wasn't available they told me, they would never have bothered as saving up that much money was too hard.

[pineappledaz]

Pilotchute,

"The quality of Newbie police officers".. don't even start with that! Yep the training for the Police in NZ has turned so PC, even to the point that step ladders are used to help people climb over fences during training.

And the recruits are getting younger and younger. All the learning for the job is done on the street, alas most are lacking the maturity for the job and love the uniform.

[mattyj]

Get used to it people, society has had a "re-alignment" and production of quality young people is no longer core business

[500N]

Pineapple

You can't shout or swear at soldiers now,
even when they totally stuff up !

[framer]

You can't shout or swear at soldiers now,

Really? What on earth do they do for the first three months then? From memory being shouted at was pretty much the entire syllabus

[500N]

God knows. Probably the Standard method of PC correction

One of my ex Cpl's told me as he got told off for doing it and then promptly
told them the Army had spent 10 years teaching him that way

[pilotchute]

Getting back on topic.

It's not just the flying that can let them down. Here is a list of other things I have noticed.

1. Cant iron a shirt to save their life.

2. Incapable of turning up on time.

3. Incapable of cleaning up after themselves. This includes cleaning the plane for the next pilot or just washing you dirty dishes in the crew room. They seem to think its someone else's job or we have a cleaner that does it.

4. Cant talk to customers in any capacity.

5. Talks to the mechanics like they are dirt.

6. Wants to know the exact day they will be doing a PA31 rating even though they have in only been the company 2 weeks.

[Kharon]

Great shoe box debate...

MS – "Just thinking outside the box a bit, but wouldn't it be great if in every capital city a group of old flyers could get together every Friday lunchtime or anytime in a spirit of friendship at a different flight school each week and put on a sausage sizzle and offer their services as mentors, tell stories of the good and the bad and encourage both instructors and students, to think about things like good airmanship and all that that encompasses. These guys and girls need leadership. Or do you think it's to late and that Gen Y won't be told. I do hope not."

Don't laugh – but I blame the booze bus for a lot of aviation woes. Back in the day there was nearly always a BBQ on a Friday, somewhere, few beers, waiting and watching for returning tribal members, watching the landings, taxi in and shut down; swapping the days yarns; listening to the ginger beers telling us what was fixed, why it was broken, who 'dun it' and what was 'dun wrong'. The airport crew used to drop in, ATCO's, Flight service, Met man, anyone who was around really. Sometimes even the guys from 'the opposition', (it was a matter of pride to visit and dispatch of as much of their provisions as possible). I reckon I learned a lot about my trade listening to 'grown ups around the camp fire'.

Those days are gone; finished by the booze bus. Perhaps it's the rose tinted lens but I remember toddling off in my airport car (wreck) drifting home tired, but happy thinking about the priceless information freely offered over a 'cold one' and a snag sandwich.

These days, the idea of passing along knowledge is tinged with fear and suspicion, wrapped in a tissue thin defence against prosecution for telling anyone 'how it's done' any other way but 'as read in the book'. The rule of black letter law regulation and being done DUI has taken a lot of fun out staying behind after school and swapping stories.

The other side of the coin is that few of the new kids ever 'learned' to work, how to set up a task or how to tidy up after themselves, turn off the light, fix a motor bike; or, to believe they were any thing else but a protected species and the world is indeed their oyster. It's not their fault, just the way of bringing up kids these days.

Aye well –

Those were the days

.

[Anthill]

First job: Now and then.

Then (1971). the interview

Q1. Is this your Mom?
Q2. Can you get up and be here by 5:30?
Q3. What's your favourite subject at school? Do you ever wag?
Q4. Can you ride a bicycle loaded with 40lbs of newspapers?
Q5. Do you know all of the streets in the area? Where is Pelham st?
Q6. Do you go to Cubs or Scouts?
Q7 What's 28 + 13?
Q8. Will you come to work if its raining?

Now:

Q1. Is the starting salary of $50k negotiable?
Q2. how much is my expense account ?
Q3. Will you provide tools for social media access?
Q4. Is time spent of social media recognised as productive time if it involved marketing the product?
Q5. When do I qualify for company supplied car?
(Q6. How soon can I expect a jet command? -Aviation specific..).

[outnabout]

Kharon - . Well said.

anthill - I fear that in your 1971 scenario, the questions were being asked by the job provider...in today's scenario, I believe the questions are being asked by the prospective employee.....

[Clare Prop]

pilotchute, it was a long time ago that I did my UK CPL, before JAR etc. It wounds like it has changed a lot since then.

I didn't say things were more professional, but if someone didn't have what it took they only got a limited number of attempts at exams (with negative marking as well) and had to compete for places on courses and so got weeded out fairly early on, no matter how much money they had. Wheras here they get weeded out AFTER getting their licence (and sometimes AFTER they have done some damage by using the "My instructor told me" method instead of knowing their references) as many are unemployable and have been given very unrealistic expectations in sales pitches, which is sad to see.

"Sign here and you can be a commercial pilot and get a job with Qantas, there is a real pilot shortage you know!" just after the introductory flight makes no sense to me. Why should they make any effort if it is all so easy?

Absolutely agree with you re. fee-help.

[S7ARSCR3AM]

Youth Nowadays

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates

Damn those youths, even 400BC they were no good!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Youth Nowadays
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates

Damn those youths, even 400BC they were no good!

(Plus enough words to satisfy the system)

[Username here]

The rule of black letter law regulation and being done DUI has taken a lot of fun out staying behind after school and swapping stories.

As a someone that has done a bit of time in fire and rescue, and seen first hand the broken innocents mamed by a drunk driver. Listening to someone vilify police attempts to prevent drink driving is a bit of a sore point.

You guys say CASA does nothing to enhance safety, then knock an organisation that has actually made massive inroads in safety/a culture of drink driving becaus it has interfered with "story time".

You can still foster that after work culture, it doesn't have to stop because you can't get ****faced and drive home because the booze bus will get you. (From what I've seen - the booze bus is the lesser consequence of drink driving)

[Kharon]

User Name – A bit precious there aren't we. No one is knocking any of the police, fire or ambulance services. Pilots have more awareness of and respect for their value than almost any other profession. My remarks were light hearted and very much tongue in cheek. Can't remember ever driving anywhere "****-faced" as you so eloquently put it; but with the advent of the booze bus, the concern of being accidentally "OTT" and perhaps loosing flying privileges weighs heavy, particularly if the drive home is long, through traffic. While I'm at it, aircrew are probably a little more safety and situational conscious than the average punter so; just settle petal, relax. The point of the yarn was that 'hanger' gatherings are not as popular as they once were; they should be, but they are not.

You guys say CASA does nothing to enhance safety, then knock an organisation that has actually made massive inroads in safety/a culture of drink driving because it has interfered with "story time".

Bollocks – plain. pure and simple.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You know what makes me laugh about PPRUNE

There's been sooo many threads over the years that basically consist of a bunch of "legacy" airline pilots slagging off at the new low cost airlines, and they always end up with a bunch of crying about "well of course all their pilots must be crap / unsafe blah blah blah because who else except crap pilots would work for those terms and conditions". And all the old checkies all stroke their chins and cry into their beers about how the industry is doomed by all these low cost airlines and it's just a matter of time. It's like the holy gospel with these guys that crap salary = crap pilots, and nobody can convince them otherwise.

But when it comes to GA, all of a sudden mysteriously it's NEVER the fault of the employer offering appallingly bad wages to do a bloody hard job - and I'm talking about instructing as well as bush flying here, ALL you pr!cks are equally guilty of it. When you suddenly don't have a million super motivated, highly intelligent, incredibly perfect young guys all willing to move to some top end sh!t hole and work 6 1/2 days a week for "GA award wage" - or sit around Bankstown or Ardmore all day unpaid waiting for students to show up - and then probably spend their weekend working in the office or sweeping the hangar floor, just for the sheer love of aviation and "desire to get ahead ", then it suddenly turns into a 5 page slag fest about the youth of today, and all the old GA codgers stroke their chins and cry into their beers about "generation Y" and how useless they all are.

You guys aren't above the law of supply and demand. You want quality people then bloody PAY for them. If you're not prepared to do that then shut up and accept whatever you can get.

[Blueskymine]

Every generation thinks they did it better. We have short memories.

If you think you old timers did it better, have a look at the accident stats. Hmmmm.

[50 50]

Luke sky toddler has is pretty much perfect. The youth of today were trained by the old codgers of yesteryear. How about not dismissing any technology developed after world war 2 as a toy, and actually training your students in its proper use? By students read PAYING customers.

The days of students being subservient to arrogant egocentric old men that just want to be fawned over are long gone. If you do a crap job training people you will end up with crap pilots. Simple. Don't count the money and then complain about it.

The good ole days, are just that. Old. It's not 1967 anymore, customer expectations change as much as employer expectations do. Schools wonder why they can't keep students when "customer service" doesn't even register in their vocabulary. Nobody is obligated to pay you people money, but when they do, you are obligated to give them what they have paid for.