Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.
Originally Posted by dagenham
...If double crewing means the asset can be on patrol nearly double the time it might actually be efficient as it replaces purchasing and maintain two of " insert craft / vessel / item of choice "...
The RN website contains an interesting insight into current global commitments here: Operations. The bit covering ships alongside contains these sage words:
Originally Posted by RN website
Alongside - Ships
Ships and submarines are complex pieces of kit, packed with hard-working sailors - all of whom need some time alongside once in a while. Hectic as a ship or boat's programme can be, there will always be some time alongside at her home port of Faslane, Devonport or Portsmouth, or away in the hands of the engineers for refit and maintenance.
Ships and submarines are complex bits of engineering, and just as your car needs a regular service, the process of upkeep and maintenance for Naval vessels is ongoing and demanding. And people need upkeep too; so when a ship is alongside in her home port, the ship's company will be not just looking after their ship, but committed to training and other tasks to keep life on board running smoothly.
Originally Posted by Coutney mil
From the reports in the press recently, it looks like the crew needs to spend more time maintaining their vessel and less time being worried about morale and being deployed, right, Hangarshuffle? I hope the guys from Babcock don't get too upset about having to go and sort out the RN's mess.
Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
I was more worried about the poor crew that needs to go home.
Last edited by FODPlod; 16th Jun 2015 at 15:43. Reason: to avoid giving any misleading impression about Bulwark's length of deployment.
It's OK, FOD. My concern was raised by a former RN chap that led me to believe that the crew would all be jolly upset by now. Perhaps, in hindsight, I shouldn't be so easily convinced of servicemen's fragility.
Edit: Which Christmas?
Edit: Which Christmas?
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Hope your not having a pop at me there either. I still cannot fathom out the hostility I get for having the temerity to suggest in this day and age that the RN could not look at carrying out a rolling turnaround of a lean manned ship over an extended or even open ended deploy. It makes perfect sense.
Works well in civvy street and it would work here if Command had the will and budget. Times and people and their demands are changing. RN are all volunteers you know, and they can sharp leave-Govtmental type people be well advised to remember it.
*My training and experience in the RN was second to none, was a transferable asset and since I left, well, very well paid work was pretty easy to secure..and will be for most of Bulwarks crew if they ever slightly grew tired of the game.
Back on the thread, spare a thought and a prayer even if you can gather it in your iron hearts, for the ones who will now be left bobbing out at sea to die a horrible death. Which is surely now what will occur to many hundreds if not thousands.
Works well in civvy street and it would work here if Command had the will and budget. Times and people and their demands are changing. RN are all volunteers you know, and they can sharp leave-Govtmental type people be well advised to remember it.
*My training and experience in the RN was second to none, was a transferable asset and since I left, well, very well paid work was pretty easy to secure..and will be for most of Bulwarks crew if they ever slightly grew tired of the game.
Back on the thread, spare a thought and a prayer even if you can gather it in your iron hearts, for the ones who will now be left bobbing out at sea to die a horrible death. Which is surely now what will occur to many hundreds if not thousands.
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The Monaco 2050 superyacht private-jet set - Telegraph
Couldn't get the link up from the Guardian, sorry about that. The Telegraph has nothing in its online pages about Bulwark et al; the Govt. must have told them to pull it, as its a pretty bad read I suppose.
But they do have in adverts for super yachts featuring not helicopters but vertical take off jet planes to transport the super-rich about. Which sort of makes me think about where the western world is and its priorities at the moment.
In other newspapers, the plight of North Africa in general is a sobering read.
http://www.libyaherald.com/#axzz3dFt4CYtn
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?rubrique1
Not a single column I can see here about the situation facing boat people-so if you are counting on being put off travelling to the coast and heading to Europe, I guess there is nothing to dissuade you. Unless you access the western papers (but not todays Telegraph).
Couldn't get the link up from the Guardian, sorry about that. The Telegraph has nothing in its online pages about Bulwark et al; the Govt. must have told them to pull it, as its a pretty bad read I suppose.
But they do have in adverts for super yachts featuring not helicopters but vertical take off jet planes to transport the super-rich about. Which sort of makes me think about where the western world is and its priorities at the moment.
In other newspapers, the plight of North Africa in general is a sobering read.
http://www.libyaherald.com/#axzz3dFt4CYtn
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?rubrique1
Not a single column I can see here about the situation facing boat people-so if you are counting on being put off travelling to the coast and heading to Europe, I guess there is nothing to dissuade you. Unless you access the western papers (but not todays Telegraph).
Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 16th Jun 2015 at 19:37.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HS, I think I agree with you. What is wrong with a continuous personnel throughout? RAF sqns work that way.
Using the fully constituted model you might have one sqn, fully worked up, combat ready and at the top of its game about a year after it starts. After another year it will need replacing as it is getting into a rut and is tired. No problem, its replacement has just completed its work up and it full efficiency. A third sqn, or retreads from the first is starting to work up. Basically, at some point you have a sqn at 100% readiness but then it starts to lose its edge.
In contrast a sqn with 10 crews, with a new crew joining every 3 months, and taking 6 months to work up, is at a maximum of 80%. Realistically a crew becoming tourex mayay be less effective so combat efficiency may be nearer 70%.
Which model is better ? One worked up or one working up so efficiency varying from 50% upwards or continuous rotation and efficiency around 70%.
Using the fully constituted model you might have one sqn, fully worked up, combat ready and at the top of its game about a year after it starts. After another year it will need replacing as it is getting into a rut and is tired. No problem, its replacement has just completed its work up and it full efficiency. A third sqn, or retreads from the first is starting to work up. Basically, at some point you have a sqn at 100% readiness but then it starts to lose its edge.
In contrast a sqn with 10 crews, with a new crew joining every 3 months, and taking 6 months to work up, is at a maximum of 80%. Realistically a crew becoming tourex mayay be less effective so combat efficiency may be nearer 70%.
Which model is better ? One worked up or one working up so efficiency varying from 50% upwards or continuous rotation and efficiency around 70%.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 16th Jun 2015 at 21:23.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CM, every one I ever served on.
In maritime individuals were dripfed into existing crews. I suspect I didn't make my point clear enough. Any sqn or crew with new personnel is, by definition, less than 100% ready.
A sqn, deployed and worked up with no rotation of crews or personnel will near 100%.
The Soviet model was a 3 sqn regt with one sqn fully experienced and the third 27th training crews.
Ps, the ones I was on were the continuous rotation of crews model.
In maritime individuals were dripfed into existing crews. I suspect I didn't make my point clear enough. Any sqn or crew with new personnel is, by definition, less than 100% ready.
A sqn, deployed and worked up with no rotation of crews or personnel will near 100%.
The Soviet model was a 3 sqn regt with one sqn fully experienced and the third 27th training crews.
Ps, the ones I was on were the continuous rotation of crews model.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CM, no, the point is that a sqn with one crew working up to LCR, a senior crew winding down, and the other crews with graduated proficiency from New to old is not at 100%. The sqn may be declared but by definition has to be less capable than one at steady state, all crews trained and worked up. A case on point were the composite sqns formed pre-GW 1.
Desirable as that may be that 100% sqn is offset by the training sqn in work up.
In contrast the sqn with continually rotation of crews, slightly less capable, is more efficient as a greater proportion are always operational.
Desirable as that may be that 100% sqn is offset by the training sqn in work up.
In contrast the sqn with continually rotation of crews, slightly less capable, is more efficient as a greater proportion are always operational.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Downsized, correct, that is the 100% model with, in your case, 75% at various readiness states giving a total force % readiness of 25% albeit it is capable of reaching 75% fairly quickly.
The continuous replenishment model runs at about 70% and is also capable of being ramped up.
Which model is more combat effective? Which is more economical in costs and manpower?
Possibly your Herrick cycle, putting full trained units into the field is better for that operation and the UK base, continuous replenishment model, is better for a long term cold war readiness requirement.
The continuous replenishment model runs at about 70% and is also capable of being ramped up.
Which model is more combat effective? Which is more economical in costs and manpower?
Possibly your Herrick cycle, putting full trained units into the field is better for that operation and the UK base, continuous replenishment model, is better for a long term cold war readiness requirement.
OK, I get the point about a Sqn not being manned 100% by fully worked up or even fully CR crews. And that has always been the way. It was suggested (actually had been many times) that OCUs could do the full Sqn CR work up. Sometimes we did graduate crews LCR, but that wasn't the norm.
But there is still a big difference between having two complete sets of crews, or two complete crews and having 75% CR, fully worked up.
I think I may have misinterpreted an earlier post. My apologies if that's the case.
But there is still a big difference between having two complete sets of crews, or two complete crews and having 75% CR, fully worked up.
I think I may have misinterpreted an earlier post. My apologies if that's the case.
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Suprising role change.
HMS Enterprise replaced HMS Bulwark and the rescue mission appears no longer thus.
UK 'pulling back' from migrant rescue with HMS Enterprise deployment | World news | The Guardian
Now a more aggressive military mission to "go after the human smugglers and traffickers" according to the Grad, which to be fair has followed the story closely. "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.
If they are taking on presumably armed gangs, who are really coining it, and splitting the villains from their little earner then the RN may be in for a real shooting match, exchanges of gunfire - I would not be surprised. So why send a survey ship?
I would have thought another type would have really been more appropriate. Type 45 is very high tech but has biggish flight deck and hangar, two fast boats either side, room for a suitable RM detachment>? Weapons even..people have said for a long time the RN needs more appropriate vessels for this sort of operation.
The air asset remains, a Merlin. Does Enterprise have a hangar and facilities for that?
I'm confused by it all, the drift, the actual plan here. I understand the political about turn - the RNs role had become embarrassing.
GCHQ and the UKs National Crime Agency are also involved with a cell established in Italy to target the bad uns.
But anyway, whatever it is good luck with this RN.
UK 'pulling back' from migrant rescue with HMS Enterprise deployment | World news | The Guardian
Now a more aggressive military mission to "go after the human smugglers and traffickers" according to the Grad, which to be fair has followed the story closely. "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.
If they are taking on presumably armed gangs, who are really coining it, and splitting the villains from their little earner then the RN may be in for a real shooting match, exchanges of gunfire - I would not be surprised. So why send a survey ship?
I would have thought another type would have really been more appropriate. Type 45 is very high tech but has biggish flight deck and hangar, two fast boats either side, room for a suitable RM detachment>? Weapons even..people have said for a long time the RN needs more appropriate vessels for this sort of operation.
The air asset remains, a Merlin. Does Enterprise have a hangar and facilities for that?
I'm confused by it all, the drift, the actual plan here. I understand the political about turn - the RNs role had become embarrassing.
GCHQ and the UKs National Crime Agency are also involved with a cell established in Italy to target the bad uns.
But anyway, whatever it is good luck with this RN.
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Hangarshuffle,
Your: "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.
My Post #12 on the "A-10s to be sold on" Thread suggests a way of dealing with the boats (the last lot of Bulwark's passengers seem to be having a field day at Calais now! - the next lot having already "booked their passage" on the E ?)
D.
Your: "Identify, capture and dispose of " the baddies boats.
Personally, I would have picked a different vessel to do that task that the E.
My Post #12 on the "A-10s to be sold on" Thread suggests a way of dealing with the boats (the last lot of Bulwark's passengers seem to be having a field day at Calais now! - the next lot having already "booked their passage" on the E ?)
D.
Sadly, it's no longer a matter of which ship fits the mission. It's what ship have we got available. Given that this is, effectively, a security mission with a risk of having to bag some, er, bad guys, HMSE will do just fine. With the right stuff on board.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 24th Jun 2015 at 18:59.
The RN have used "5th Watch manning" for its fishery protection ships in the past. I'm not sure whether they still do, or whether it has ever been trialled on FF/DD ships but I doubt it due to the additional complexity and maintenance requirements of th FF/DD.
Like its name suggests, each ship had a Crew of 5 watches - 4 were at sea with the 5th Watch on leave or on courses etc. one Watch rotated through every X weeks. Not sure how frequently.
I suggest that this works ok in a Patrol vessel in home waters but probably not in a more complex and lean manned Warship on a long deployment, where you have to have the full range of worked up ship fighting/ operating/ maintenance skills at all times to cope with any change in circumstance and tasking.
Like its name suggests, each ship had a Crew of 5 watches - 4 were at sea with the 5th Watch on leave or on courses etc. one Watch rotated through every X weeks. Not sure how frequently.
I suggest that this works ok in a Patrol vessel in home waters but probably not in a more complex and lean manned Warship on a long deployment, where you have to have the full range of worked up ship fighting/ operating/ maintenance skills at all times to cope with any change in circumstance and tasking.
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(Plagiarised from another website)
A strike and blockade at Calais caused chaos and lengthy backlogs.
It was so bad that travellers were advised to check before they left Africa.
A strike and blockade at Calais caused chaos and lengthy backlogs.
It was so bad that travellers were advised to check before they left Africa.
