Scottish Defence Force?
The deep plot is that the Scots win either way. I'm sure that the lad from Strichen [my ancestral home] knew that he would set in place a new round of "self-government" regimes that effectively give Scots more autonomy under the apron of the UK union but a clear road to a Federation. Ulster and Wales must be accorded the same status as Scotland going forward.
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Well said hangarshuffle.
I voted "No" but only because:
a. I actually believe in "The Union" of our 4 Nations &
b. I bought into the "Vow" from all 3 Westminster Party Leaders re "More Powers".
By God they better not have lied....for I will vote for Nicola and then "Yes" the next time.
There are a lot of "No" voters who feel no sense of victory only a grim sense of "let's wait & see"...
PS Yes, absolutely ALL 4 Nations should have as much autonomy as the power-mad establishment of Westminster will allow...
I voted "No" but only because:
a. I actually believe in "The Union" of our 4 Nations &
b. I bought into the "Vow" from all 3 Westminster Party Leaders re "More Powers".
By God they better not have lied....for I will vote for Nicola and then "Yes" the next time.
There are a lot of "No" voters who feel no sense of victory only a grim sense of "let's wait & see"...
PS Yes, absolutely ALL 4 Nations should have as much autonomy as the power-mad establishment of Westminster will allow...
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The referendum has been the best thing to happen to UK politics in my lifetime,it has woken up the establishment to the fact that the electorate is not as supine as they thought. The rise of the SNP in Scotland and the similar rise of UKIP in England have come about for basically the same reason - complete disillusion with contemporary politics and politicians. In my youth there were politicians,not all of my political persuasion, who were honourable men,men of great vision who were in politics to serve the people with the knowledge they had obtained in a career doing something else.They had a firm grip on reality having worked in the real world.What we have is a bunch of time servers without an ounce of integrity whose sole aim is to gain political power without the vaguest idea as to how to use that power for good. They are schooled by highly paid advisors who train them how to get elected.As a result of this we have now political leaders without principle or any political philosophy who will do virtually anything to gain power - renaging on election promises without a second thought. I hope that the high turnout will be repeated throughout the UK in the next General election which may scare the political class enough for massive changes in our governance . One can but hope.
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(the Cornish in particular seem to hate England, see the little flag they all fly)
Last edited by nimbev; 21st Sep 2014 at 08:51.
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The Cornish do bang on about "Cornishness" tho' - which is amazing as most of them are retirees from up country
They're also rabidly anti-Eu even though they make a packet out of EU grants...................
They're also rabidly anti-Eu even though they make a packet out of EU grants...................
covec:-
..and that's the implicit threat that will go on hanging over the rest of the UK until you and 5M others declare yourselves fully satisfied. Will you ever be fully satisfied, covec? Will they?
The genie is out of the bottle now and the writing would seem to be on the wall for the UK. If Scotland doesn't eventually pull the plug then perhaps a 'devoluted' England might. It could arguably be said that there would be far more in it for an independent England than for Scotland. Of course we're not supposed to talk like that, are we? An ENP would be damned as bigoted, racist, and right wing before it had even uttered a word, whereas the other national parties would be principled upholders of basic freedoms fighting for their national identity. Quite where that would leave the other three parts of the Union of course is another matter, but the rules of this game would now seem to indicate that is their problem. England would of course continue to have the warmest and friendliest relations with them...
By God they better not have lied....for I will vote for Nicola and then "Yes" the next time.
The genie is out of the bottle now and the writing would seem to be on the wall for the UK. If Scotland doesn't eventually pull the plug then perhaps a 'devoluted' England might. It could arguably be said that there would be far more in it for an independent England than for Scotland. Of course we're not supposed to talk like that, are we? An ENP would be damned as bigoted, racist, and right wing before it had even uttered a word, whereas the other national parties would be principled upholders of basic freedoms fighting for their national identity. Quite where that would leave the other three parts of the Union of course is another matter, but the rules of this game would now seem to indicate that is their problem. England would of course continue to have the warmest and friendliest relations with them...
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Well said, HS, at least in what you said about lighting a rocket under Westminster. But where did your point about "federalising into semi-autocratic regions" come from .?? Surely a recipe for the worst of all possible worlds -a host of expensive regional talking shops empowered only to pass local by-laws while all substantive decisions are taken in Brussels.
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Of course we're not supposed to talk like that, are we? An ENP would be damned as bigoted, racist, and right wing before it had even uttered a word, whereas the other national parties would be principled upholders of basic freedoms fighting for their national identity
etc etc
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I live in Northumberland, and had already found a disused petrol station on the Scottish side of the border. I was going to set up a drive through duty free booze shop for the north easterners.
You could have gone to my website, pre ordered your vast quality of cheap grog, and then my industrious Polish workforce could simply load up your boot as you drive in. Back across the border grinning with your vast savings, i could have then finally thrown in the towel with respect to being sat in a beer fart seat 10 hours a day, doing an "Ibiza innit"
Bugger.
You could have gone to my website, pre ordered your vast quality of cheap grog, and then my industrious Polish workforce could simply load up your boot as you drive in. Back across the border grinning with your vast savings, i could have then finally thrown in the towel with respect to being sat in a beer fart seat 10 hours a day, doing an "Ibiza innit"
Bugger.
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Bit about it here in the Sunday Tellygraph.
There's been some positive things to come out of it all. There's a good article by Hitchens in the Mail on Sunday, but this article below is more how I could see the ex-UK forming up in the future.
Jon Cruddas: It's the end for Westminster control - Telegraph
And that would only be the start.
Interesting how the demography of Scotland was crucial to it remaining within GB, older voters favouring the union. The younger Scots who were in the Yes camp will be back, I've no doubt and boy when they do reappear it will be curtains on the UK as we knew it unless there is radical change in attitude and governance between then and now.
Perhaps its just me, but I sense we are so much less a United Kingdom than we were. I travel and work around the UK a lot. Every other place I went in Cornwall (when I worked at RNAS Culdrose) I was either greeted or confronted with the flag). That and the attitude made me thoroughly fed up with the place in the end, and the people and I would never go back there. Perhaps Cornwall should now have devolved power to a much more higher degree?
And don't stop there.
London now is so rich and successful at what it does (boutique which also launders money for the rest of the worlds rich) it could and very well may be an entirely different concept one day = I bet if Mayor Boris Johnson got his way he would push for it, shameless mirror man opportunist that he is.
Recent talk of the transport "crescent" link as its been put about is not a coincidence with the devolution. That Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Sheffield-Newcastle link up could be the future axis if you like of the Northern part of England. Many people will push for that.
These are just my own musings, but I sense again something is now out of the bottle and the future will be different, and perhaps even we will have a happier more settled contented island in the future as a result.
Jon Cruddas: It's the end for Westminster control - Telegraph
And that would only be the start.
Interesting how the demography of Scotland was crucial to it remaining within GB, older voters favouring the union. The younger Scots who were in the Yes camp will be back, I've no doubt and boy when they do reappear it will be curtains on the UK as we knew it unless there is radical change in attitude and governance between then and now.
Perhaps its just me, but I sense we are so much less a United Kingdom than we were. I travel and work around the UK a lot. Every other place I went in Cornwall (when I worked at RNAS Culdrose) I was either greeted or confronted with the flag). That and the attitude made me thoroughly fed up with the place in the end, and the people and I would never go back there. Perhaps Cornwall should now have devolved power to a much more higher degree?
And don't stop there.
London now is so rich and successful at what it does (boutique which also launders money for the rest of the worlds rich) it could and very well may be an entirely different concept one day = I bet if Mayor Boris Johnson got his way he would push for it, shameless mirror man opportunist that he is.
Recent talk of the transport "crescent" link as its been put about is not a coincidence with the devolution. That Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Sheffield-Newcastle link up could be the future axis if you like of the Northern part of England. Many people will push for that.
These are just my own musings, but I sense again something is now out of the bottle and the future will be different, and perhaps even we will have a happier more settled contented island in the future as a result.
Of course we're not supposed to talk like that, are we? An ENP would be damned as bigoted, racist, and right wing before it had even uttered a word, whereas the other national parties would be principled upholders of basic freedoms fighting for their national identity
And besides, the reason there has never been an ENP is simply because, with the Conservative Party looking after English interests, there has never been a need for one.
Last edited by melmothtw; 21st Sep 2014 at 12:37.
mmw:-
That will be news to:-
amongst many others! The Conservative Party used to be known as the Conservative and Unionist Party and, despite the rebranding, has just ploughed a lot of its credibility into maintaining that commitment to the Union by Call Me Dave. Of course you might mean certain parts of England have been more equal than others under its stewardship. Couldn't argue with that...
As to how an ESP would be perceived, that remains to be seen. The SNP was once a music hall joke. Not any more!
the reason there has never been an ENP is simplify because, with the Conservative Party looking after English interests, there has never been a need for one.
(HS), Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Sheffield-Newcastle
As to how an ESP would be perceived, that remains to be seen. The SNP was once a music hall joke. Not any more!
Point taken Chugalug, but by your own admission then it is hard to see how the aspirations of Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds- Sheffield-Newcastle (amongst many others) could ever be reconciled with those of London, Surrey, Buckingham, etc, through an English National Party.
ENP? About as likely as a White Policemans' Union. [OK to have any other colour of course].
Next few months will be interesting.
Triumvirate making promises to Scotland that they had no right to.
English stirred out of their slumber.
General election.
English votes for English laws.
Whatever next?
BRING IT ON!
Next few months will be interesting.
Triumvirate making promises to Scotland that they had no right to.
English stirred out of their slumber.
General election.
English votes for English laws.
Whatever next?
BRING IT ON!
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To be honest we have the same problem in Scotland with regional differences.
Glasgow and Dundee have some huge problems. Which nobody really knows the solution to.
The rest of Scotland doesn't give a poo about them to be honest. But.... there are a hellva lot of voters in the Glasgow region.
Oh and Aberdeen is likely to go the same way as those two in 10-15 years time as the second and third generations of migrant oil workers grow up with no jobs.
Glasgow and Dundee have some huge problems. Which nobody really knows the solution to.
The rest of Scotland doesn't give a poo about them to be honest. But.... there are a hellva lot of voters in the Glasgow region.
Oh and Aberdeen is likely to go the same way as those two in 10-15 years time as the second and third generations of migrant oil workers grow up with no jobs.
mmw, point taken in turn, but as HS tells us, the 'bombe' is ticking and we've all had a foretaste of its possible effects. Pensions, savings, cost of living, employment, even place of and right of abode have all been discussed here as problems that would result from a Scottish, or any other, defection from the Union. If its going to happen then logic says let's do it in a planned and orderly manner than the panic that resulted from a slight swing in an opinion poll.
That's my take anyway in the cossetted South East. I suspect it will also be the same in many other corners of the UK, which suddenly isn't the eternal institution that we've previously taken it for.
That's my take anyway in the cossetted South East. I suspect it will also be the same in many other corners of the UK, which suddenly isn't the eternal institution that we've previously taken it for.
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"English votes for English laws"
Think of the Arithmetic. How many times since the Act of Union in 1707 has the influence of Scottish, Welsh and Irish MP's made any difference to an Election result or to voting at Westminster. When England votes Conservative or Labour that's normally what the UK gets. Yes, it was close in 1964 and 1974 and 2010 but it was then a consequence of the Westminster first past the post voting system that minority parties had any influence to wield.
Pre 1997 we had the Scottish Grand Committee/Scottish Office running things with the Party in power co-opting MP's when needed to have their majority. It's true that post the 1997 Devolution settlement, it might look like London has less say in Scottish affairs. Is that really an issue when Westminster decides the block grant and the cash to be given under the Barnett Formula? If it is go on, devolve all bar Defence and Foreign Policy. Most in Scotland would run with that even those like me who would have preferred we never started down this road in the first place.
By normal standards last weeks result was a resounding victory for the Union but only a fool would disregard the fact that 45% of the votes cast wanted it to end.
Think of the Arithmetic. How many times since the Act of Union in 1707 has the influence of Scottish, Welsh and Irish MP's made any difference to an Election result or to voting at Westminster. When England votes Conservative or Labour that's normally what the UK gets. Yes, it was close in 1964 and 1974 and 2010 but it was then a consequence of the Westminster first past the post voting system that minority parties had any influence to wield.
Pre 1997 we had the Scottish Grand Committee/Scottish Office running things with the Party in power co-opting MP's when needed to have their majority. It's true that post the 1997 Devolution settlement, it might look like London has less say in Scottish affairs. Is that really an issue when Westminster decides the block grant and the cash to be given under the Barnett Formula? If it is go on, devolve all bar Defence and Foreign Policy. Most in Scotland would run with that even those like me who would have preferred we never started down this road in the first place.
By normal standards last weeks result was a resounding victory for the Union but only a fool would disregard the fact that 45% of the votes cast wanted it to end.
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And besides, the reason there has never been an ENP is simply because, with the Conservative Party looking after English interests, there has never been a need for one.