Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
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By the way ...
I know there is another thread running in respect of our current Herc J Force ops into Sinjar ... But I understand that the yellow containers in the pic I posted at #1093 are in fact Drinking Water Containers. Apparently designed to withstand drop impacts and once the contents have been consumed ... the receptacle can then be used to filter further water for drinking. Now that seems more practical than dropping standard PET bottles ... even if more expensive
I know there is another thread running in respect of our current Herc J Force ops into Sinjar ... But I understand that the yellow containers in the pic I posted at #1093 are in fact Drinking Water Containers. Apparently designed to withstand drop impacts and once the contents have been consumed ... the receptacle can then be used to filter further water for drinking. Now that seems more practical than dropping standard PET bottles ... even if more expensive
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I've just noticed that the MOD has just released video of Drop 3 over Sinjar last night (presumably Drop 2 was the one aborted over DZ safety concerns on the ground).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=touVcoF5LQo
Very impressive
So a genuine question ... How much more of a challenge was doing night drops say 20/30 years ago without the benefit of NVG and other tech wonders both from the flight deck and down the back ?
For those interested Drop 1 footage is also on YouTube (search : Defence News)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=touVcoF5LQo
Very impressive
So a genuine question ... How much more of a challenge was doing night drops say 20/30 years ago without the benefit of NVG and other tech wonders both from the flight deck and down the back ?
For those interested Drop 1 footage is also on YouTube (search : Defence News)
Coffman,
boot on the foot was not the danger. Getting the static line strop in the face was. Especially for the taller chaps. Oh and being dragged out of the door if you tried to stop an op jump. You can see this is a training jump as the paras are not lugging weapons containers. So everything is nice and slow(ish) !
boot on the foot was not the danger. Getting the static line strop in the face was. Especially for the taller chaps. Oh and being dragged out of the door if you tried to stop an op jump. You can see this is a training jump as the paras are not lugging weapons containers. So everything is nice and slow(ish) !
Coffman,
I did some very early NVG trials and the kit was very cumbersome to use and also gave tunnel vision. One of the pilots had to be NVG free for safety. I expect that the modern kit is much improved. I recommended that the ALM did not need it 'down the back' as we always dimmed the lights to red during the 'prepare for action' stage. This allowed your vision to adjust before the exiting bit. We found the DZs at night with difficulty ! The homing radio aids available were about as 'good' as they were at Arnhem. My log book is littered with ' DZ Homing Trials'.
For strip landings at night vehicle headlights could be used and sometimes the troops held torches at the touchdown point. No doubt some of the ex SF drivers etc may be able to comment in more detail.
I have no knowledge of the current state of play.
I did some very early NVG trials and the kit was very cumbersome to use and also gave tunnel vision. One of the pilots had to be NVG free for safety. I expect that the modern kit is much improved. I recommended that the ALM did not need it 'down the back' as we always dimmed the lights to red during the 'prepare for action' stage. This allowed your vision to adjust before the exiting bit. We found the DZs at night with difficulty ! The homing radio aids available were about as 'good' as they were at Arnhem. My log book is littered with ' DZ Homing Trials'.
For strip landings at night vehicle headlights could be used and sometimes the troops held torches at the touchdown point. No doubt some of the ex SF drivers etc may be able to comment in more detail.
I have no knowledge of the current state of play.
AA62,
I'm certainly no SF Waller, being a humble GE, but I know that the introduction of the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Nav System) which was a blend of Satellite and Inertial Nav systems introduced in the run up to GW1, did a grand job of putting us on strip thresholds, at night on NVG. Obviously, some skill was required from both the two winged master race, and the wizard of Oz to the right hand side. I experienced many infils and exfils, in, from my point of view, the pitch dark. Very impressive. I doubt I have given any classified info away here, after all, that was around 25 years ago, things have moved on. Like you, I would love to hear from the people who successfully operated it, and later developments, where legal.
Smudge
I'm certainly no SF Waller, being a humble GE, but I know that the introduction of the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Nav System) which was a blend of Satellite and Inertial Nav systems introduced in the run up to GW1, did a grand job of putting us on strip thresholds, at night on NVG. Obviously, some skill was required from both the two winged master race, and the wizard of Oz to the right hand side. I experienced many infils and exfils, in, from my point of view, the pitch dark. Very impressive. I doubt I have given any classified info away here, after all, that was around 25 years ago, things have moved on. Like you, I would love to hear from the people who successfully operated it, and later developments, where legal.
Smudge
As I recall we didn't have the SCINS (or HINS) fit until quite a while after GW1. A few frames had a Litton IN platform (I was one of those qualified to use it for the post-GW1 flypast of London that was cancelled due to weather). During GW1 there was an in-theatre 'quick fit' of a LORAN procured from the light aircraft GA world (the oscilloscope-based 'make a fish' device was in chocolate teapot territory). I remember wandering onto the flight deck, seeing a novelty item bolted under my radar repeater and a manual the thickness of a telephone directory on the desk with a note sellotaped to the front saying 'Nav - Please Read'.
The only viable conversion to the new unit was driving to the airfield during 'down time', getting the aircraft powered up and learning how to use it. It soon transpired that it was a great piece of kit for finding desert LZs and getting into Kuwait Intl through the oil-fire smoke, but putting in all the information via the single twist control took an age and the Nav had the only read-out. The other snag that manifested itself was that the budget model had been bought and the rate-aiding ran out of steam above about 170 kts. The result was that when it lost lock the aircraft had to be slowed while it had a bit of a think...
The only viable conversion to the new unit was driving to the airfield during 'down time', getting the aircraft powered up and learning how to use it. It soon transpired that it was a great piece of kit for finding desert LZs and getting into Kuwait Intl through the oil-fire smoke, but putting in all the information via the single twist control took an age and the Nav had the only read-out. The other snag that manifested itself was that the budget model had been bought and the rate-aiding ran out of steam above about 170 kts. The result was that when it lost lock the aircraft had to be slowed while it had a bit of a think...
MalDrop,
As one of two GEs deployed throughout December 1990 to "the Gulf" with a 47SF crew, I can assure you that XV205 had the SCINS fit as we deployed. The other GE was an Avionics man by trade and had done a quick course on the kit before deployment, I received an "in theatre" briefing on how to test it and how to fix it from him. This included some input from our Nav, who was a wizzard with the kit. I remember phrases like "ring laser gyro"and "system blending" etc, all too far in the past for my memory to retrieve. In 1991, after GW1 I remember doing a trip on a Deci Schedule with a 30 Squadron crew, using XV205 for some reason. The first half of the trip was spent with the SCINS turned off, but the Nav decided to have a play on the leg north back to Germany. For once, I was found to be of some use as I still had my notes from GW1 and a memory for getting it set up. I doubt it was that useful for a Deci Sched, it was certainly very useful in the desert. I remember rumours about hand held satnavs etc throughout the conflict, but never came across them.
Smudge
As one of two GEs deployed throughout December 1990 to "the Gulf" with a 47SF crew, I can assure you that XV205 had the SCINS fit as we deployed. The other GE was an Avionics man by trade and had done a quick course on the kit before deployment, I received an "in theatre" briefing on how to test it and how to fix it from him. This included some input from our Nav, who was a wizzard with the kit. I remember phrases like "ring laser gyro"and "system blending" etc, all too far in the past for my memory to retrieve. In 1991, after GW1 I remember doing a trip on a Deci Schedule with a 30 Squadron crew, using XV205 for some reason. The first half of the trip was spent with the SCINS turned off, but the Nav decided to have a play on the leg north back to Germany. For once, I was found to be of some use as I still had my notes from GW1 and a memory for getting it set up. I doubt it was that useful for a Deci Sched, it was certainly very useful in the desert. I remember rumours about hand held satnavs etc throughout the conflict, but never came across them.
Smudge
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Smuj and all,
I suspect the whole matter will be confused by memories and perceptions of when the war started etc. I was out there pretty early in 200 on 03rd August and it was not fitted with any kit. Stayed for a while and RTB'd to restock. I'm pretty certain when I went back on Sept 26th in 'Terry" (206) it was fitted with a trimble or some nautical GPS bought with Army petty cash from Shoreham flying club. One of the Navs and one of the Cos went down to buy it, possibly in a helicopter that looked like it was in the AA
It was connected to an aerial in the cupola with 3 bent coat hangers. I think thats all we had until December. My logbook shows a SCNS trial in 179 on 28 Nov. The 'big push' in Dec had 4/5 a/c in theatre and I think 2 of them had SCNS fitted. The whole saga was like a continuation of the Op Corporate 'get it done' mentality. The bike-pump chaff dispenser was a piece of Wizardry. Bear in mind, it wasn't long before this we were still lobbing chaff out in sick bags at 'Flag'. I jest not. I hope somebody somewhere has the facts accurately recorded, rather than my hazy memories. It will make a ripping yarn.
To put all this in perspective, I've been lucky enough to recently have a beer/coffee/chat with 4 of the 47 Sqn DFC winners from the recent period. I hope its not 30 years till we hear about them here. To misuse a Crocodile Dundee quote -" now THATS a story..."
Night all
I suspect the whole matter will be confused by memories and perceptions of when the war started etc. I was out there pretty early in 200 on 03rd August and it was not fitted with any kit. Stayed for a while and RTB'd to restock. I'm pretty certain when I went back on Sept 26th in 'Terry" (206) it was fitted with a trimble or some nautical GPS bought with Army petty cash from Shoreham flying club. One of the Navs and one of the Cos went down to buy it, possibly in a helicopter that looked like it was in the AA
It was connected to an aerial in the cupola with 3 bent coat hangers. I think thats all we had until December. My logbook shows a SCNS trial in 179 on 28 Nov. The 'big push' in Dec had 4/5 a/c in theatre and I think 2 of them had SCNS fitted. The whole saga was like a continuation of the Op Corporate 'get it done' mentality. The bike-pump chaff dispenser was a piece of Wizardry. Bear in mind, it wasn't long before this we were still lobbing chaff out in sick bags at 'Flag'. I jest not. I hope somebody somewhere has the facts accurately recorded, rather than my hazy memories. It will make a ripping yarn.To put all this in perspective, I've been lucky enough to recently have a beer/coffee/chat with 4 of the 47 Sqn DFC winners from the recent period. I hope its not 30 years till we hear about them here. To misuse a Crocodile Dundee quote -" now THATS a story..."
Night all
Pretty sure that XV205 had a Litton Inertial Navigation System, as mentioned I flew it (alongside an OCU Nav) for the GW1 flyby practices and on the weather-cancelled actual day of 21 June 1991 (according to my logbook the Captain was OC 242). As an IN platform it had Ring Laser Gyros and I still have the notes on firing it up somewhere.
For a while Navs could go to Ops and sign out the hand-held PLGRs which operated from an aerial deployed through the periscope sextant housing. Those were the days when the US military limited the availability of precision-acquisition codes to certain accredited operators (of which the RAF was one) and before the opening of the system to wider use. Chickenlover may even remember me using my own hand-held GPS to decipher some US reporting points on the way back from Guyana to Charleston via Rosie Roads (24 Nov 97).
Whilst flying in GW1 during the period immediately after 16 Jan there was some chat amongst the Riyadh-based crews about putting tinfoil strips behind the air-deflectors for a single-shot chaff dispenser but I found the locally procured Bacofoil more useful to make hats with.
As has been said, memories can be suspect but I'm reasonably sure of my recollections as I was operating the kit.
For a while Navs could go to Ops and sign out the hand-held PLGRs which operated from an aerial deployed through the periscope sextant housing. Those were the days when the US military limited the availability of precision-acquisition codes to certain accredited operators (of which the RAF was one) and before the opening of the system to wider use. Chickenlover may even remember me using my own hand-held GPS to decipher some US reporting points on the way back from Guyana to Charleston via Rosie Roads (24 Nov 97).
Whilst flying in GW1 during the period immediately after 16 Jan there was some chat amongst the Riyadh-based crews about putting tinfoil strips behind the air-deflectors for a single-shot chaff dispenser but I found the locally procured Bacofoil more useful to make hats with.
As has been said, memories can be suspect but I'm reasonably sure of my recollections as I was operating the kit.
Chickenlover and MalDrop,
Thanks for that both, and I agree, memory can be a funny thing. Perhaps for some reason at the time we (the GEs) just called it SCINS. I do know that it seemed to do the job adequately, getting us in to strips quite nicely at night. Perhaps more recognition should be given to the Navs prowess, somehow though Indoubt they needed it
Smudge
Thanks for that both, and I agree, memory can be a funny thing. Perhaps for some reason at the time we (the GEs) just called it SCINS. I do know that it seemed to do the job adequately, getting us in to strips quite nicely at night. Perhaps more recognition should be given to the Navs prowess, somehow though Indoubt they needed it
Smudge
Mal Drop,
when I did the HEART job the HINS fit was way behind schedule. We interviewed the chap 'running' the program and he was not bothered at all.
It appeared that MOD had given the GPS/INS bits to different firms and no one was accountable for the subsequent delay. Each blamed the other !
I remember the big yellow 'brick' that masqueraded as a GPS . I think they were designed for tanks.
It is oft forgotten that it was not really until GW1 that MOD woke up to the fact that for the SF crews to operate effectively they badly needed some decent kit.
This of course harks back to how the SF Flight was set up in the first place.
when I did the HEART job the HINS fit was way behind schedule. We interviewed the chap 'running' the program and he was not bothered at all.
It appeared that MOD had given the GPS/INS bits to different firms and no one was accountable for the subsequent delay. Each blamed the other !
I remember the big yellow 'brick' that masqueraded as a GPS . I think they were designed for tanks.
It is oft forgotten that it was not really until GW1 that MOD woke up to the fact that for the SF crews to operate effectively they badly needed some decent kit.
This of course harks back to how the SF Flight was set up in the first place.
Pic of the day, another inside job.
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AA62
I am showing just how much I am out of touch with the truckie world now - when did the Herc squadrons split roles? When I left Hercs end 1971 all the squadrons did everything and tactical training was done in the last 4 weeks of the OCU for all crews.
This of course harks back to how the SF Flight was set up in the first place.
SF aircraft had SCNS during GW1. HINS was a slightly different fit as I recall, although if could be wrong! Litton/Plgr was also about towards the end I think, although not with the sextant mount aerial - I seem to recall some sort of bungee cord mounting on the upper side window!
Nimbev,
a good question! I think it must have been in the late 1970's, before Op Corporate. Someone no doubt will have the definitive answer. The airdrop task diminished as the airborne forces were reduced and there was only enough TS left to keep two squadrons current.
a good question! I think it must have been in the late 1970's, before Op Corporate. Someone no doubt will have the definitive answer. The airdrop task diminished as the airborne forces were reduced and there was only enough TS left to keep two squadrons current.
D
DC,
yes the HINS was long overdue updated Nav fit for all the 'K's. the SCNS was an SF specific fit.
yes the HINS was long overdue updated Nav fit for all the 'K's. the SCNS was an SF specific fit.
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Gents ... More fascinating insights into your Truckie world ... Many thanks
The RAF has a long history of ingenuity and practical application when it comes to problem solving given an operational need or imperative ... but it seems you guys had more than your fair share of operational challenges ... but I guess that comes with the wide variety of tasking undertaken by the Herc fleet.
Anyway ...
Now that sounds as if a F/L Heath Robinson had a hand in the design
Hopefully someone will oblige and entertain us all
In the early 80's I had a very brief intro/go (in the Finningley Nav Sim) with the then TANS Platform ... at the time I seem to recall someone saying that it was to be the "standard" Tactical Air Nav System for RAF Helicopters and Transports. I believe it was fitted to the Puma ... but it sounds like it never made it to the Herc ? Presumably Mil spec GPS/more advanced INS overtook TANS ?
The RAF has a long history of ingenuity and practical application when it comes to problem solving given an operational need or imperative ... but it seems you guys had more than your fair share of operational challenges ... but I guess that comes with the wide variety of tasking undertaken by the Herc fleet.
Anyway ...
Originally Posted by Chickenlover
The bike-pump chaff dispenser was a piece of Wizardry. Bear in mind, it wasn't long before this we were still lobbing chaff out in sick bags at 'Flag'. I jest not. I hope somebody somewhere has the facts accurately recorded, rather than my hazy memories. It will make a ripping yarn.
Hopefully someone will oblige and entertain us all
In the early 80's I had a very brief intro/go (in the Finningley Nav Sim) with the then TANS Platform ... at the time I seem to recall someone saying that it was to be the "standard" Tactical Air Nav System for RAF Helicopters and Transports. I believe it was fitted to the Puma ... but it sounds like it never made it to the Herc ? Presumably Mil spec GPS/more advanced INS overtook TANS ?
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 13th Aug 2014 at 16:41.
TANS was part of the standard Dominie fit at Finningley so a generation of Navs used it during training but I also recall that it was mainly a Helo fit. When I joined the Herc in the late 80s, Decca was just on the way out; Omega (a VLF system with a submarine provenance) was the global(ish) kit and accurate to a mile or so; the LORAN ADL61 ('make a fish') was a primary transatlantic nav kit along with the sextant and the whole shebang was displayed on ball/disc resolver along and across twin-channel mechanical readouts which ran from the C12 compasses and the Decca Doppler 62M. The along and across readout (which could be coupled to the autopilot as the source of endless hours of fun with 'voice-controlled flying' for crew amusement at the expense of flight deck visitors) could also run on expanded mode for greater accuracy on airdrops. As back-up there was also a Lat/Long mechanical computer which could also be used for Grid and Griv navigation but that piece of kit was not exactly sparkling when it came to accuracy and had to be manually updated on a regular basis.
In the good old days the Nav would be lucky to find time to stuff down a Mars Bar on a transatlantic route while he played 'One Man and His Dog' with all the bits of kit nav and did Astro calculations to see where the aircraft had probably/possibly been on its adventures. Changing LORAN C chains could also be a leap of faith with no guarantee that once the fading signal had been given up, a new one would be found.
I have huge respect for the fairies who used to keep the airborne annexes of the Science Museum running and always used to visit them in their hangar of wonders to do the tech debrief post-flight when we brought Albert home.
In the good old days the Nav would be lucky to find time to stuff down a Mars Bar on a transatlantic route while he played 'One Man and His Dog' with all the bits of kit nav and did Astro calculations to see where the aircraft had probably/possibly been on its adventures. Changing LORAN C chains could also be a leap of faith with no guarantee that once the fading signal had been given up, a new one would be found.
I have huge respect for the fairies who used to keep the airborne annexes of the Science Museum running and always used to visit them in their hangar of wonders to do the tech debrief post-flight when we brought Albert home.
Last edited by Mal Drop; 13th Aug 2014 at 17:23.