Typhoon Pilots 'unfit for flying' Sent Home
Don't really want to trawl the 200+ posts, but remind me- was anyone killed? Hurt? Offended, leading to a complaint? Equipment broken?
They got a judgement wrong, ironically, probably because they had one too many, leading to bad judgement over the next few. They'll pay.
Pity the presumably sober NATO troop(s) who killed a bunch of Afghans, including kids. They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.
No thread about it on Pprune as far as i can see either. Perspective is funny innit?
CG
They got a judgement wrong, ironically, probably because they had one too many, leading to bad judgement over the next few. They'll pay.
Pity the presumably sober NATO troop(s) who killed a bunch of Afghans, including kids. They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.
No thread about it on Pprune as far as i can see either. Perspective is funny innit?
CG
'Just like the tonka guys during Desert Storm- unlike the rest of the aviation community who put up with tent city, they had to book themselves into the bloody Sheraton!!'. Not me mate, I spent the war in a BAe compound which was comfortable and that was it. No hostesses, no booze and was true for two out of three GR1 dets.
Jindy,
If directed at me, the cap doesn't fit! The RAF that you allude to was a completely different one from the 1940s, as today's Air Force is different from one of 2 decades ago. The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!
OF1
If you think that appearance of the Services and their behaviour as reported by the medja doesn't matter, you are living in an extremely naiive world. Of growing importance is the role of social media - blogs, facebook, twitter, ad nauseum - after all, these new media brought down the Governments of Egypt and Tunisia; having a direct bearing on events in Libya and Syria, and caused a proto-revolution in Iran in 2009. Users of T W I T T E R have usurped the authority of the High Court, indeed been in contempt of it. Social Media could also be the undoing of HM Forces. Soooo.....when a story about the behaviour of British troops is released into the cybersphere it takes a life of its own and can be extremely damaging - irrespective of its veracity.
To illustrate this 18 months ago I was involved in an incident which rapidly made it into the media and onto various blogs (this site included). Threatening messages - calling for my imprisonment or worse - were published on a number of websites (Telegraph Comment, and PPrune, to name 2) and I was to be 'door-stepped' at my (very) private home address by one of the red-tops, who 'received the story' (probably by way of payment) from a 'Top Brass in MOD'. Luckily DMC in MB intervened and lessened the media outrage, yet it continued, self-fuelling - on the internet for several weeks. These viral stories bore no resemblence to the events as they happened but at one stage UK participation in several Joint UK/US programmes was jeopordised because of unsubstaitated comment on the web - programmes, I regret, that I had nothing to do with!
So in sum,
British Fores operate under a level of media scrutiny that exceeds anything ever experienced before. Additionally, social media can be used to pass messages and 'stories' without editorial control; indeed the lads using social media in theatre can, unwittingly, be a major threat to OPSEC and PERSEC. Societal norms have changed, reflecting our changing society. It is no more acceptable to refer to South asians as, say 'Pakis' as it to be drunk at work - in any job, let alone whilst on operations. Imagine, if you will, stories that are probably circulating about 'drunk, pork eating kuffirs killing innocent Muslims from Libya/Afghanistan/Pakistan/ (insert Arc of Crises country of your choice)'. I bet my bottom dollar that these stories are circulating and gaining credence. Let's not give the Queen's enemies any UXOs that could be used against us.
(for some reason FAceBook comes up at PPrune in this post....see what I mean?)
If directed at me, the cap doesn't fit! The RAF that you allude to was a completely different one from the 1940s, as today's Air Force is different from one of 2 decades ago. The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!
OF1
If you think that appearance of the Services and their behaviour as reported by the medja doesn't matter, you are living in an extremely naiive world. Of growing importance is the role of social media - blogs, facebook, twitter, ad nauseum - after all, these new media brought down the Governments of Egypt and Tunisia; having a direct bearing on events in Libya and Syria, and caused a proto-revolution in Iran in 2009. Users of T W I T T E R have usurped the authority of the High Court, indeed been in contempt of it. Social Media could also be the undoing of HM Forces. Soooo.....when a story about the behaviour of British troops is released into the cybersphere it takes a life of its own and can be extremely damaging - irrespective of its veracity.
To illustrate this 18 months ago I was involved in an incident which rapidly made it into the media and onto various blogs (this site included). Threatening messages - calling for my imprisonment or worse - were published on a number of websites (Telegraph Comment, and PPrune, to name 2) and I was to be 'door-stepped' at my (very) private home address by one of the red-tops, who 'received the story' (probably by way of payment) from a 'Top Brass in MOD'. Luckily DMC in MB intervened and lessened the media outrage, yet it continued, self-fuelling - on the internet for several weeks. These viral stories bore no resemblence to the events as they happened but at one stage UK participation in several Joint UK/US programmes was jeopordised because of unsubstaitated comment on the web - programmes, I regret, that I had nothing to do with!
So in sum,
British Fores operate under a level of media scrutiny that exceeds anything ever experienced before. Additionally, social media can be used to pass messages and 'stories' without editorial control; indeed the lads using social media in theatre can, unwittingly, be a major threat to OPSEC and PERSEC. Societal norms have changed, reflecting our changing society. It is no more acceptable to refer to South asians as, say 'Pakis' as it to be drunk at work - in any job, let alone whilst on operations. Imagine, if you will, stories that are probably circulating about 'drunk, pork eating kuffirs killing innocent Muslims from Libya/Afghanistan/Pakistan/ (insert Arc of Crises country of your choice)'. I bet my bottom dollar that these stories are circulating and gaining credence. Let's not give the Queen's enemies any UXOs that could be used against us.
(for some reason FAceBook comes up at PPrune in this post....see what I mean?)
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 31st May 2011 at 07:23. Reason: amended to delete QGM and insert QGJM! I am not a Walt....
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'..was anyone killed? Hurt? Offended, leading to a complaint? Equipment broken?
No, you're correct. All that happened was that two officers in the RAF on active service were found drunk in a public street some (as-yet-to-be-admitted) time before they were due to fly again operationally. If we're to believe the elderly warriors on here, such behaviour is not just traditional, it's almost mandatory.
So that's fine then.
They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.
I'm sure they will. And I'm sure they'll be comforted somewhat by the knowledge that it was a genuine mistake, not (I hope) a mistake caused in part by the after-effects of alcohol on the cognitive functions of the brain.
No, you're correct. All that happened was that two officers in the RAF on active service were found drunk in a public street some (as-yet-to-be-admitted) time before they were due to fly again operationally. If we're to believe the elderly warriors on here, such behaviour is not just traditional, it's almost mandatory.
So that's fine then.
They probably won't pay in the same way, but they'll pay too.
I'm sure they will. And I'm sure they'll be comforted somewhat by the knowledge that it was a genuine mistake, not (I hope) a mistake caused in part by the after-effects of alcohol on the cognitive functions of the brain.
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Seriously, f
ing seriously actual aviators believe these two were about to go flying and decided to tie one on. Are you shting me.
They were several DAYS from getting in the cockpit. FFS.
You lot get very easily convinced by poor journalism. Very weak minded.
ing seriously actual aviators believe these two were about to go flying and decided to tie one on. Are you shting me. They were several DAYS from getting in the cockpit. FFS.
You lot get very easily convinced by poor journalism. Very weak minded.
TTGH
This illustrates my point. Irrespective of any 'facts' surrounding this event, the received wisdom is that 2 pilots were drunk and about to fly. This is the story that is on the web and again, illustrates why our behaviour in Theatre (in particular) has to be exemplary, whether we like it or not.
This illustrates my point. Irrespective of any 'facts' surrounding this event, the received wisdom is that 2 pilots were drunk and about to fly. This is the story that is on the web and again, illustrates why our behaviour in Theatre (in particular) has to be exemplary, whether we like it or not.
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Seriously, f
ing seriously actual aviators with access to aviation medicine specialists believe these two were about to go flying unaffected by their alcohol consumption, even 48 hours afterwards? Are you shting me?
You lot get very easily misled by your lack of understanding of the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function.
ing seriously actual aviators with access to aviation medicine specialists believe these two were about to go flying unaffected by their alcohol consumption, even 48 hours afterwards? Are you shting me?You lot get very easily misled by your lack of understanding of the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
This also assumes that GDC has room and infrastructure for a tent city. Tent cities don't just spring up overnight (well they do but they need a considerable amount of work to so do) and the host nation may be unwilling to have its airfield turned in to an encampment. Hotac will have a far lower impact on the 'economy'.
Makes me wonder if people in a position of authority have any time to worry about the task in hand, or the welfare of those under their command, these days.
They are obviously too busy fretting about what the media think, or whether vital international projects might get cancelled because of something they didn't do. It could be awfully bad for ones career after all.
Personally I would have thought that someone who has been the victim of inaccurate media reports would have more sympathy and understanding of the position that these 2 gentlemen found themselves in.
Then again anyone who thinks, and I quote:
Appears to be so full of themselves that they probably have little time for others. Unless of course that other person can in anyway help them progress up the promotion ladder.
They are obviously too busy fretting about what the media think, or whether vital international projects might get cancelled because of something they didn't do. It could be awfully bad for ones career after all.
Personally I would have thought that someone who has been the victim of inaccurate media reports would have more sympathy and understanding of the position that these 2 gentlemen found themselves in.
Then again anyone who thinks, and I quote:
The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!
If directed at me, the cap doesn't fit! The RAF that you allude to was a completely different one from the 1940s, as today's Air Force is different from one of 2 decades ago. The brutal truth is that the level of operational experience across the RAF exceeds anything that has occured over the last 50-odd years, and this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM). This is why I - and I suspect many of my serving colleagues - have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere. If they were on operations, fine, otherwise they should count themselves lucky for not being away for extended periods of time from friends and family, amongst communities that would cheerfully kill them!
Having read the above, from someone who's posts are generally amicable and loaded with common sense, I can't help feeling a little disappointed.
At what point does an exchange of views get so virulent, that denigrating those who have gone before us becomes acceptable?
There are massive differences between the generations [my service spanning both the cold war and recent ops - I am all too aware]. That does not nullify their contribution, or negate any opinions they may have on this thread.
I leave it to your conscience, but personally, I would like to see the post deleted. I'm sure it looked fine in the heat of the moment, but I would urge you to reconsider your line of advance.
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..... have little in common with the blazer-wearing, crimson faced, bewhiskered old buffers demanding a Defence Service Medal for 2 years spent in W Germany or elsewhere.
Gentleman Aviator
They are obviously too busy fretting about what the media think, or whether vital international projects might get cancelled because of something they didn't do. It could be awfully bad for ones career after all.
this is reflected in the campaign medal tally many of us now have (6 at last count, excluding QGJM).
round ones don't count!
MGD,
I'm sorry that you took umbridge at my post - I was recovering from an Imperial sized headache....probably too much Limoncello!
With a double dose of irony....I was sober!
I'm sorry that you took umbridge at my post - I was recovering from an Imperial sized headache....probably too much Limoncello!
With a double dose of irony....I was sober!
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 31st May 2011 at 14:20.
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He's not the only one When. Thanks for the near apology but what you said is downright offensive,inaccurate and deserves more. Would you like me to PM you as well (and all the other "coldwar" has beens) to really tell you why you are wrong?
Thankfully, PPrune does not reflect the view of all serving personnel, because if it did the RAF is doomed.
Thankfully, PPrune does not reflect the view of all serving personnel, because if it did the RAF is doomed.
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I'm sorry that you took umbridge (sic) at my post - I was recovering from an Imperial sized headache....probably too much Limoncello!
And thus you provide us with a masterclass on the wisdom of combining drink with anything requiring a modicum of logical thought...
And thus you provide us with a masterclass on the wisdom of combining drink with anything requiring a modicum of logical thought...
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Hanoi J
Please tell us more Jane.
How many times must it be said that the guys were not going flying, and if when they they were due to go flying they were still unfit due to the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function (sic), then they would not have flown (probably deeper in the sh*t however).
You lot get very easily misled by your lack of understanding of the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function.
How many times must it be said that the guys were not going flying, and if when they they were due to go flying they were still unfit due to the lasting effects of alcohol on cognitive function (sic), then they would not have flown (probably deeper in the sh*t however).
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Seems to me that if these were 2 'senior' officers then they should know better and should be setting an example to those under their command. No-one was hurt but leadership starts at the top. I'm also surprised no-one has asked why they got so pi$$ed - was it a reaction to what they had just done on Ops or to what they may soon be expected to do? People react to the stress of Ops in different ways. Personally I think they overstepped the mark and made fools of themselves. If it affects their careers then they get what they deserve, as would a JO in a similar situation.
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Please tell us more Jane.
Why is the phrase 'cognitive function' troubling you? Would you like me to spell it some other way?
If you're having trouble with that, there's little point in me referring you to the research papers on PubMed on this subject. I suggest if you'd like to know more, have a word with your local specialist in aviation medicine. They're paid to educate you. I'm not.
I'm simply here to tell you that active pilots shouldn't drink alcohol. It's not big and it's not clever. End of.
Why is the phrase 'cognitive function' troubling you? Would you like me to spell it some other way?
If you're having trouble with that, there's little point in me referring you to the research papers on PubMed on this subject. I suggest if you'd like to know more, have a word with your local specialist in aviation medicine. They're paid to educate you. I'm not.
I'm simply here to tell you that active pilots shouldn't drink alcohol. It's not big and it's not clever. End of.