Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Of worries on helicopter flying
Perhaps I throw the thread forward, but hopefully only to relate the same feeling of dread the thought of flying in the whirling dervish of a machine gave me back in the day. I was just an AGE on Albert, and, subsequent to the GW1 debacle was detailed to attend a FARP course at RAF Stafford. It seems that our Captain, one C**** F**d, had arranged transport from Lyneham to RAF Stafford by Chinook of 7(SF). We duly turned up and sat in the back of the beast, myself the Eng, Co and Nav all crossed our fingers and prayed for a failure. By goodness, it happened, the bugger wouldn't start properly, and, needed support from main base. What a relief, we attended the course, by car, and were told about Farping, which we had all been doing for the duration of GW1. I have the honour to be an erk who avoided flying in a helicopter during 30 years of service. I'm sure there's some point in the whirligigs, unnatural IMHOP, I hope to continue to avoid any contact with the beast.
Smudge
Smudge
After 17,500 hrs of flying, of which 16,500hrs were on helicopters, 12,500hrs were on Pumas and Super Pumas. During that time on the latter types I cannot remember a moment of concern.
You don't know what you missed.
You don't know what you missed.
FED,
respect Sir, and each to his or her own as they say. I have no doubt that those "brought up" in the ways of the rotary machine are comfortable with it. I have no wish to cast aspersions on rotary operations, or operatives, and hope that you can accept my personal dread of travelling in such a mode.
Smudge
respect Sir, and each to his or her own as they say. I have no doubt that those "brought up" in the ways of the rotary machine are comfortable with it. I have no wish to cast aspersions on rotary operations, or operatives, and hope that you can accept my personal dread of travelling in such a mode.
Smudge
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Fareastdriver,
Your: "The latter obviously believed that if the population was predominately Chinese it belonged to China".
Same ploy was used by A. Hitler in the case of the Sudeten Germans. And Putin is not averse to calling on it in (say) Ukraine. Of course it does rather accord with the principle of Self-Determination !
Danny.
Your: "The latter obviously believed that if the population was predominately Chinese it belonged to China".
Same ploy was used by A. Hitler in the case of the Sudeten Germans. And Putin is not averse to calling on it in (say) Ukraine. Of course it does rather accord with the principle of Self-Determination !
Danny.
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Western Australia
FED
Great to read of your adventures in Oz. I spent a while in Perth, and I remember flying up to Karratha with Ansett on a BAE146 before getting on a helicopter to fly offshore to the Goodwyn. I seem to remember the helicopter operator was Lloyd, but I can't recall the type of helicopter they flew.
As to those who have no wish to fly in helicopters, all I can say is that I worked offshore for 30+ years, and apart from a few minor issues, I had no problems at all. I flew in many types, my favourites being the ubiquitous S61, Bell 214ST and the Bolkow BO105. Bristow were still flying S58's when I started.
Great to read of your adventures in Oz. I spent a while in Perth, and I remember flying up to Karratha with Ansett on a BAE146 before getting on a helicopter to fly offshore to the Goodwyn. I seem to remember the helicopter operator was Lloyd, but I can't recall the type of helicopter they flew.
As to those who have no wish to fly in helicopters, all I can say is that I worked offshore for 30+ years, and apart from a few minor issues, I had no problems at all. I flew in many types, my favourites being the ubiquitous S61, Bell 214ST and the Bolkow BO105. Bristow were still flying S58's when I started.
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I flew in a helicopter once in my 12 years RAF service (1961-73). It was an RAF helicopter tasked to retrieve some kit that we had had to leave on Bear Tor (Dartmoor) after the Ten Tors walk/march was cancelled due to inclement weather. The following day I got a telephone call to say that the helicopter could not find our kit on Bear Tor and would I go and assist. I met the helicopter in (I think) the Royal Marine barracks in Plymouth and off we zoomed. The loadie/winchman had a 1" = 1 mile OS map of Dartmoor with Bear Tor clearly marked so I crouched in the open doorway looking over his shoulder at the map & the terrain (and holding VERY tightly to a bit of the airframe). The helicopter hovered a few hundred feet above Dartmoor and the loadie/winchman pointed at a hilltop and then at Bear Tor on the map. I shook my head, pointed at the ground and then at Dinger Tor on the map. We moved a short distance, found Bear Tor and retrieved our kit. I made no comment as I left the helicopter at the RM barracks in Plymouth.
We moved a short distance, found Bear Tor and retrieved our kit.
Returning to Shekou in China where I lived.
The Navy decided to do an assault on a miltary range in the New Territories in Hong Kong. They launched from their carrier and flew up the Pearl River to their target. Unfortunately they miscounted the islands, missed their LZ and deposited a Marine Commando in the Peoples Republic of China. Luckily in the middle of the Shenzen Bay there was a Hong Kong border boat that witnessed it. He notifyed Hong Kong and they notified the carrier. At that point the lead crew were informed of their error and returned to pick up their charges.
They got away with it apparantly. The Embassy in Beijing was on tenderhooks for weeks but nothing came of it.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 20th Jul 2015 at 09:55.
To stop this thread coming off the front page.
The Saga of the Dodgy Registration.
In 1998 came the Far East crash. Stock prices were collapsing and even major international companies were having financial troubles. Imagine a group of Samsung financial directors shuffling on their knees to tell the president he cannot have his super deluxe helicopter to take him to work every morning. The company is in such dire straights that it can only afford a small one. Not too small, about the size of his limousine, and so an Aerospatiale 332L1 came on the market.
There weren’t a lot of takers for a full VIP executive helicopter for the same reasons that Samsung were selling it. However, our Chinese company bought at an absolutely giveaway, rock bottom bargain price somewhere around 50% of what it cost two years earlier. They flew it to Shenzhen and we had a look at this beautiful jewel, its form only spoiled by the air conditioner mounted on the port side.
One lowered an airstair door to enter the front cabin. Radiant beech panelling lined the walls with four sumptuous swivelling armchairs spaced evenly around. There was a drinks cabinet at hand and a telephone to address the driver with. The rear cabin had airstairs under the boom was merely set out with six club class armchairs but had, as the front did, a carpet you had to wade through. There was also a door so that the president’s needs, during the seven or eight minutes between establishing in the cruise and starting the landing profile, could be attended to.
It all had to come out. Off came the air-conditioner; out came the armchairs and seats. They had to leave the panelling as it hid the frames and stringers but the partition disappeared. Seats? We had some seats in storage there, not a full set, just fourteen, so in they went. Then it went onto the contract it was bought for, an offshore based shuttle. It was seven days out and then the aircraft would come back for maintenance and crew change. The first two weeks were done by Chinese crews but then came the requirement for a British captain. As I was on contract to the Chinese company I was fingered.
There was one problem. It was still on the South Korean register. Not having a Korean validation on my licence I politely declined; or words to that effect. On this I was backed up by the chief pilot and all the other Brits. What arrangements the Chinese crews had for flying it I didn’t know but that was their problem. This impasse lasted about three days and then the Chinese played the master stroke. They got a temporary Chinese registration for the aircraft.
I had flown aircraft with temporary registration before. I had picked up a S76 that had been shipped over from the States to Southampton. It had a temporary registration stuck on the side made up with bodge tape and it was virtually indecipherable at first glance. The weather wasn’t brilliant and I had flown it to the UK base fairly low level across the south of England. I knew the area because of my time at Odiham so as the area being used to military traffic I reasoned that that plus an unrecognisable registration which had probably peeled off would keep me fairly safe from moaners. Thus I flew along blissfully unaware that the previous US registration was emblazoned in big letters and numbers on the underside of the aircraft.
In China the allocation of aircraft identities is on a different logic than the UK. Whilst in the UK they are predominately in alphabetical order in China it is by company further divided into types. What happens is that a company is given a block of numbers which are further broken down into types. Our company had B7951 onwards for its 332s. They bought 7951&2 in the mid eighties and 7953 came along over ten years later. The temporary registration that this aircraft had bore no relation whatsoever to any recognised form of Chinese allocation.
I decided to go along with it for three reasons. The first was that I wanted to fly it. The reports on were superb. The flight from Seoul to Shenzhen was ten per cent of its total hours and it was as smooth as a baby’s bottom in the cruise. The second was covered by Chinese aviation law as I was directly employed by a Chinese company. Most of flying discipline in China is delegated to the company so if you are guilty of an infringement you are fined by the company. As they had told me to fly it it would be difficult to discipline me for flying it illegally. The third was that I had a copy of a policy that said I was worth US$1,000,000 dead.
To be continued………………………..
The Saga of the Dodgy Registration.
In 1998 came the Far East crash. Stock prices were collapsing and even major international companies were having financial troubles. Imagine a group of Samsung financial directors shuffling on their knees to tell the president he cannot have his super deluxe helicopter to take him to work every morning. The company is in such dire straights that it can only afford a small one. Not too small, about the size of his limousine, and so an Aerospatiale 332L1 came on the market.
There weren’t a lot of takers for a full VIP executive helicopter for the same reasons that Samsung were selling it. However, our Chinese company bought at an absolutely giveaway, rock bottom bargain price somewhere around 50% of what it cost two years earlier. They flew it to Shenzhen and we had a look at this beautiful jewel, its form only spoiled by the air conditioner mounted on the port side.
One lowered an airstair door to enter the front cabin. Radiant beech panelling lined the walls with four sumptuous swivelling armchairs spaced evenly around. There was a drinks cabinet at hand and a telephone to address the driver with. The rear cabin had airstairs under the boom was merely set out with six club class armchairs but had, as the front did, a carpet you had to wade through. There was also a door so that the president’s needs, during the seven or eight minutes between establishing in the cruise and starting the landing profile, could be attended to.
It all had to come out. Off came the air-conditioner; out came the armchairs and seats. They had to leave the panelling as it hid the frames and stringers but the partition disappeared. Seats? We had some seats in storage there, not a full set, just fourteen, so in they went. Then it went onto the contract it was bought for, an offshore based shuttle. It was seven days out and then the aircraft would come back for maintenance and crew change. The first two weeks were done by Chinese crews but then came the requirement for a British captain. As I was on contract to the Chinese company I was fingered.
There was one problem. It was still on the South Korean register. Not having a Korean validation on my licence I politely declined; or words to that effect. On this I was backed up by the chief pilot and all the other Brits. What arrangements the Chinese crews had for flying it I didn’t know but that was their problem. This impasse lasted about three days and then the Chinese played the master stroke. They got a temporary Chinese registration for the aircraft.
I had flown aircraft with temporary registration before. I had picked up a S76 that had been shipped over from the States to Southampton. It had a temporary registration stuck on the side made up with bodge tape and it was virtually indecipherable at first glance. The weather wasn’t brilliant and I had flown it to the UK base fairly low level across the south of England. I knew the area because of my time at Odiham so as the area being used to military traffic I reasoned that that plus an unrecognisable registration which had probably peeled off would keep me fairly safe from moaners. Thus I flew along blissfully unaware that the previous US registration was emblazoned in big letters and numbers on the underside of the aircraft.
In China the allocation of aircraft identities is on a different logic than the UK. Whilst in the UK they are predominately in alphabetical order in China it is by company further divided into types. What happens is that a company is given a block of numbers which are further broken down into types. Our company had B7951 onwards for its 332s. They bought 7951&2 in the mid eighties and 7953 came along over ten years later. The temporary registration that this aircraft had bore no relation whatsoever to any recognised form of Chinese allocation.
I decided to go along with it for three reasons. The first was that I wanted to fly it. The reports on were superb. The flight from Seoul to Shenzhen was ten per cent of its total hours and it was as smooth as a baby’s bottom in the cruise. The second was covered by Chinese aviation law as I was directly employed by a Chinese company. Most of flying discipline in China is delegated to the company so if you are guilty of an infringement you are fined by the company. As they had told me to fly it it would be difficult to discipline me for flying it illegally. The third was that I had a copy of a policy that said I was worth US$1,000,000 dead.
To be continued………………………..
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 22nd Jul 2015 at 06:14.
Wonderful stories FED, aviation's answer to Lord Jim 
Please keep them coming.
Please keep them coming.
Mrs FED stayed at home in the UK. However, I always shipped her out to have a look at the places where I worked at; ie China three or four times. Whilst I was at Darwin in my last episode she was watching the jumping crocodiles with me.
Leave arrangements were somtimes complicated. We decided to do Central USA to see Las Vegas and some relatives. Mrs FED flew from London to San Francisco and I flew by Grab a Granny Airlines from Hong Kong and we met at the airport to catch the connecting flight to Vegas. (GaG Airlines; our American SLFs will know that one) A few days in Vegas, rented a Buick and drove through the Rockies to Dillon where my niece was. Then through the Eisenhower tunnel almost to Denver; south almost to Albuquerque then along the by the old Route 66. There we saw the Rio Grande, Meteor Crater and the Hoover dam before returnig to Vegas. Mrs FED went back to the UK and I flew back to Hong Kong and China.
More on that later.
Leave arrangements were somtimes complicated. We decided to do Central USA to see Las Vegas and some relatives. Mrs FED flew from London to San Francisco and I flew by Grab a Granny Airlines from Hong Kong and we met at the airport to catch the connecting flight to Vegas. (GaG Airlines; our American SLFs will know that one) A few days in Vegas, rented a Buick and drove through the Rockies to Dillon where my niece was. Then through the Eisenhower tunnel almost to Denver; south almost to Albuquerque then along the by the old Route 66. There we saw the Rio Grande, Meteor Crater and the Hoover dam before returnig to Vegas. Mrs FED went back to the UK and I flew back to Hong Kong and China.
More on that later.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 22nd Jul 2015 at 06:46.
I arrived at 06.00 hrs for the 07.00 take off. My co-pilot did all the planning and then I went to the line office to sign out the aircraft. B-7955 was emblazoned on the tech log. Over the weekend? I should coco. But you couldn’t argue against it, it was all there in writing. I queried as to why it was suddenly registered. They (the CAAC registration authority) forgot to tell us. They had approved it two weeks ago. What about the temporary registration? Different department, we will tell them later. The aircraft was a honey. Smooth, precise and a joy to fly. When we arrived offshore we found that the deck crews had no trouble with airstair doors and the deck times were the same as normal.
We were based on the Nan Hai Fa Xian, an FPSO; (Floating Production, Storage and Offloading) ship which was a converted tanker. It was registered in Panama and had an Italian officered crew. I had a cabin on B deck just along from the officers lounge.
Meals were cooked separately from the Chinese crew and we could choose virtually what we liked. The schedule was tight. A morning shuttle at 07.00 hrs, that lasted about two hours. A midday change over for about an hour and then the evening shuttle at 19.00 which went on for another two hours. The engineers had it worse then us. The had to strap it down after the last landing, do the post and pre flights and untie it before the next morning’s tasking.
There are two ways off getting oil onshore. Where possible pipelines buried just under the sea bed is preferred and nearly all North Sea products come this way. Where that is not possible then an FPSO is used. Pipeline from any number, in this case six, platforms meet at a subsea loading buoy. The FPSO has a well in the deck just aft of the bow that goes straight through the hull. It positions itself ever the buoy and the buoy is then raised to fit inside the well on the ship. Everything is connected up and all the production from the platforms arrives on the ship. There it is processed to make it transportable by tanker.
About every six or seven days the Fa Xian would offload to a tanker. A specialist marine captain known as the mooring master would be flown out from Shekou. He and his crew would then be winched on to the tanker, supervise the mooring to the Fa Xian and stay on the bridge during the transfer process, sometimes ten or twelve hours. When the tanked had released and was on the way to wherever we would winch him and his team off the tanker and take them home. On this picture the tanker is moored to the Fa Xian. The tug pulling the stern does it all the time to keep the tanker in tension so that they do not drift together. The other tug is taking the export pipe to the tanker.
[/URL]
There wasn’t a lot to do when not flying. The TVs were all set for the Chinese crew and the Italians seemed to hibernate in their cabins. There was, however, a massive bonus. In the galley them was a soft ice cream machine with an unlimited supply of paper cups and plastic spoons. Every time we landed on to refuel I would leave the co-pilot to it and wizz down to the galley and bring up an armful of ice cream. The Chinese aren’t fond of ice cream so I would have the whole lot to myself. There wasn’t any alcohol but I had a suspicion that the Italians had a hidden supply of wine.
The problem with FPSOs and the Fa Xian in particular is that they are always pointing into the wind as they weathercock around the buoy. In fresh breezes and above this means that you get all the turbulence from the superstructure and in the Fa Xians case the twin funnels. In certain cases you would just drop at the twenty foot level and you would wait until the rotors ground cushion effect stopped you slamming into the deck. You could, as the 332 is stressed for 5m/sec (900ft/min) landings, accept quite a thump and believe me sometimes you did.
The week soon passed and then I was back in Shekou wrapping myself around a pint of draught Tiger.
B-7955 only did a couple of more weeks in the offshore contract. Then it went into the hangar and a team from the factory tore it apart and rebuilt it as an offshore aircraft with plug doors, nineteen seats and soft lining. I don't know what happened to the original kit; probably part exchanged to go in another one.
We were based on the Nan Hai Fa Xian, an FPSO; (Floating Production, Storage and Offloading) ship which was a converted tanker. It was registered in Panama and had an Italian officered crew. I had a cabin on B deck just along from the officers lounge.
Meals were cooked separately from the Chinese crew and we could choose virtually what we liked. The schedule was tight. A morning shuttle at 07.00 hrs, that lasted about two hours. A midday change over for about an hour and then the evening shuttle at 19.00 which went on for another two hours. The engineers had it worse then us. The had to strap it down after the last landing, do the post and pre flights and untie it before the next morning’s tasking.
There are two ways off getting oil onshore. Where possible pipelines buried just under the sea bed is preferred and nearly all North Sea products come this way. Where that is not possible then an FPSO is used. Pipeline from any number, in this case six, platforms meet at a subsea loading buoy. The FPSO has a well in the deck just aft of the bow that goes straight through the hull. It positions itself ever the buoy and the buoy is then raised to fit inside the well on the ship. Everything is connected up and all the production from the platforms arrives on the ship. There it is processed to make it transportable by tanker.
About every six or seven days the Fa Xian would offload to a tanker. A specialist marine captain known as the mooring master would be flown out from Shekou. He and his crew would then be winched on to the tanker, supervise the mooring to the Fa Xian and stay on the bridge during the transfer process, sometimes ten or twelve hours. When the tanked had released and was on the way to wherever we would winch him and his team off the tanker and take them home. On this picture the tanker is moored to the Fa Xian. The tug pulling the stern does it all the time to keep the tanker in tension so that they do not drift together. The other tug is taking the export pipe to the tanker.
[/URL]There wasn’t a lot to do when not flying. The TVs were all set for the Chinese crew and the Italians seemed to hibernate in their cabins. There was, however, a massive bonus. In the galley them was a soft ice cream machine with an unlimited supply of paper cups and plastic spoons. Every time we landed on to refuel I would leave the co-pilot to it and wizz down to the galley and bring up an armful of ice cream. The Chinese aren’t fond of ice cream so I would have the whole lot to myself. There wasn’t any alcohol but I had a suspicion that the Italians had a hidden supply of wine.
The problem with FPSOs and the Fa Xian in particular is that they are always pointing into the wind as they weathercock around the buoy. In fresh breezes and above this means that you get all the turbulence from the superstructure and in the Fa Xians case the twin funnels. In certain cases you would just drop at the twenty foot level and you would wait until the rotors ground cushion effect stopped you slamming into the deck. You could, as the 332 is stressed for 5m/sec (900ft/min) landings, accept quite a thump and believe me sometimes you did.
The week soon passed and then I was back in Shekou wrapping myself around a pint of draught Tiger.
B-7955 only did a couple of more weeks in the offshore contract. Then it went into the hangar and a team from the factory tore it apart and rebuilt it as an offshore aircraft with plug doors, nineteen seats and soft lining. I don't know what happened to the original kit; probably part exchanged to go in another one.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 22nd Jul 2015 at 12:11.
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Cooda Shooda,
(Note: "[PCS]" stands for "Peter C. Smith "Vengeance" (Airlife Publishing) 1986)
.
Following my Post [p.358, #7153], I've had a re-think of the vexed question of the identity of the Camden (Narellan) Vultee Vengeance, and have decided to re-open the matter. (This may seem a pettifogging point to some, but as it's the only one left in the world, and I'm very possibly the only man in the northern hemisphere left alive who flew them operationally, I think it's incumbent on me to try and get the Museum story of my old warhorse right).
There is a great deal about this on Page 132 et seq of this Thread, but it all boils down to: Is it a Mark IA, as catalogued by the Museum, or a Mark IV, as we maintained ? Does this matter ? I think it does ! Since we settled the matter to our own satisfaction here some three years ago, I have dug a bit deeper, and found that some of the "facts" on which we based our argument are not as watertight as we first thought.
Fact No.1: All mark IVs (US A-35s) carry four (or six) 0.50 Brownings in the wings, and one in the back. All marks I-II-III (US A-31s) carry four 0.300 Brownings in the wings, and two 0.300 (0.303 if RAF/RAAF) in the back. Or so they did when they left the factory. The thing in Narellan has one great 0.50 sticking out the back for all the world to see. So it's a Mk.IV ? We..ll, not necessarily !
Suppose someone had a Mk.I that had had the rear guns taken out (very likely when it was put out to grass as an instructional fuselage, as this one was). A Museum gets hold of it, but can't find a twin 0.303 set to replace it when they set about restoring it to display condition. But they can find a 0.50. (and mounting pillar - perhaps the same pillar as the twin 0.300/303s used - I guess a single 0.50 with ammo might be much the same weight as two 0.300s).
To be fair to ourselves, this possibility (actually the replacement of the entire glasshouse and gun was suggested) was considered [p.133, #2650], but discarded as highly improbable. But very recently, roaming in [PCS] (which I normally use only as a reference book), I came across a very interesting pic on p.169, captioned: "close up of the reconstructed rear cockpit of the Narellan VV with single 0.5 in calibre gun - Wayne Brown" [PCS]
Wayne Brown is no stranger, I quote:
"....interested volunteers. One of these, who has specialised on the Vengeance, is LAC Wayne Brown from 77 Squadron Engine Section at RAAF Base Williamstown. He very kindly provided details of the work conducted there on this aircraft...". [PCS].
So there's one leg of our argument kicked away for a start !
Fact No.2 is more arguable. All Mks I-II-III (US A-31) had exactly the same pilot's panel. I flew them all for three years ('43 -'46) and remember them well. What is in the Narellan one is like nothing I've ever seen. In particular, we poured scorn on the double "ball" instruments (only to find that they were not unique: the sad find some time ago of the 70 year old tragedy of the P-40 in the Sahara made me admit [137/2723]: "So they did have two ball indicators. Only question now is - Why? - You can only watch one at a time. One can't go u/s (unless gravity has been suspended) - and they're still working). We'll never know. Better leave it alone".
So that means the Camden panel isn't a one-off, any other Mk.IV would presumably look much the same; we haven't got a firm ident feature to tie all the other pics to Camden. after all.
Fact No.2 doesn't look too healthy now, does it ?
So we must fall back on the two differences that cannot be hidden from the careful eye; and now, Cooda Shooda, I must ask your help a second time. Can you contact your "Warbirds" Vengeance enthusiasts (and I'm sure some of them will be in Sydney), and see, (when the Camden [Narellan] Museum reopens), whether the wing has a zero or 4º Angle of Incidence, as I suspect it will. That will settle it, for it would be no use drilling a new set of holes in the centre section to "bodge" the AoI to zero, it wouldn't fit properly and certainly wouldn't fly, as all the strength had been taken out of the Main Spar assembly !
Second difference: Off with the front gun panels, the guns will have long gone, but the mountings will still be there, it should be obvious what size of gun was there originally. (I exclude the possibility that the mountings have been "swopped" in the same way as the rear guns have [admittedly] been !)
Tempt your "Warbirds" enthusiasts with this letter, tell em' about PPRune (they're probably on it already anyway). When (and if) they find any bits of a Mk.I lying about, I will advise if I can (call me on Open Post on this Thread, so we can all join in the fun), but remember I was just a "Driver(Airframe)", I know how a nut goes on a bolt, but that's about all, so don't be too technical.
Cheers, Danny42C.
PS: I've accumulated a whole pile of stuff in my researches, but will not bother you with it now. But, if I can ever find out how to open a NeW Thread on Mil.Aviation (yes, I've clicked on the button like the man says, but nowt happens), I'll put it on for anyone who might be interested, then it can lapse into oblivion.
D.
(Note: "[PCS]" stands for "Peter C. Smith "Vengeance" (Airlife Publishing) 1986)
.
Following my Post [p.358, #7153], I've had a re-think of the vexed question of the identity of the Camden (Narellan) Vultee Vengeance, and have decided to re-open the matter. (This may seem a pettifogging point to some, but as it's the only one left in the world, and I'm very possibly the only man in the northern hemisphere left alive who flew them operationally, I think it's incumbent on me to try and get the Museum story of my old warhorse right).
There is a great deal about this on Page 132 et seq of this Thread, but it all boils down to: Is it a Mark IA, as catalogued by the Museum, or a Mark IV, as we maintained ? Does this matter ? I think it does ! Since we settled the matter to our own satisfaction here some three years ago, I have dug a bit deeper, and found that some of the "facts" on which we based our argument are not as watertight as we first thought.
Fact No.1: All mark IVs (US A-35s) carry four (or six) 0.50 Brownings in the wings, and one in the back. All marks I-II-III (US A-31s) carry four 0.300 Brownings in the wings, and two 0.300 (0.303 if RAF/RAAF) in the back. Or so they did when they left the factory. The thing in Narellan has one great 0.50 sticking out the back for all the world to see. So it's a Mk.IV ? We..ll, not necessarily !
Suppose someone had a Mk.I that had had the rear guns taken out (very likely when it was put out to grass as an instructional fuselage, as this one was). A Museum gets hold of it, but can't find a twin 0.303 set to replace it when they set about restoring it to display condition. But they can find a 0.50. (and mounting pillar - perhaps the same pillar as the twin 0.300/303s used - I guess a single 0.50 with ammo might be much the same weight as two 0.300s).
To be fair to ourselves, this possibility (actually the replacement of the entire glasshouse and gun was suggested) was considered [p.133, #2650], but discarded as highly improbable. But very recently, roaming in [PCS] (which I normally use only as a reference book), I came across a very interesting pic on p.169, captioned: "close up of the reconstructed rear cockpit of the Narellan VV with single 0.5 in calibre gun - Wayne Brown" [PCS]
Wayne Brown is no stranger, I quote:
"....interested volunteers. One of these, who has specialised on the Vengeance, is LAC Wayne Brown from 77 Squadron Engine Section at RAAF Base Williamstown. He very kindly provided details of the work conducted there on this aircraft...". [PCS].
So there's one leg of our argument kicked away for a start !
Fact No.2 is more arguable. All Mks I-II-III (US A-31) had exactly the same pilot's panel. I flew them all for three years ('43 -'46) and remember them well. What is in the Narellan one is like nothing I've ever seen. In particular, we poured scorn on the double "ball" instruments (only to find that they were not unique: the sad find some time ago of the 70 year old tragedy of the P-40 in the Sahara made me admit [137/2723]: "So they did have two ball indicators. Only question now is - Why? - You can only watch one at a time. One can't go u/s (unless gravity has been suspended) - and they're still working). We'll never know. Better leave it alone".
So that means the Camden panel isn't a one-off, any other Mk.IV would presumably look much the same; we haven't got a firm ident feature to tie all the other pics to Camden. after all.
Fact No.2 doesn't look too healthy now, does it ?
So we must fall back on the two differences that cannot be hidden from the careful eye; and now, Cooda Shooda, I must ask your help a second time. Can you contact your "Warbirds" Vengeance enthusiasts (and I'm sure some of them will be in Sydney), and see, (when the Camden [Narellan] Museum reopens), whether the wing has a zero or 4º Angle of Incidence, as I suspect it will. That will settle it, for it would be no use drilling a new set of holes in the centre section to "bodge" the AoI to zero, it wouldn't fit properly and certainly wouldn't fly, as all the strength had been taken out of the Main Spar assembly !
Second difference: Off with the front gun panels, the guns will have long gone, but the mountings will still be there, it should be obvious what size of gun was there originally. (I exclude the possibility that the mountings have been "swopped" in the same way as the rear guns have [admittedly] been !)
Tempt your "Warbirds" enthusiasts with this letter, tell em' about PPRune (they're probably on it already anyway). When (and if) they find any bits of a Mk.I lying about, I will advise if I can (call me on Open Post on this Thread, so we can all join in the fun), but remember I was just a "Driver(Airframe)", I know how a nut goes on a bolt, but that's about all, so don't be too technical.
Cheers, Danny42C.
PS: I've accumulated a whole pile of stuff in my researches, but will not bother you with it now. But, if I can ever find out how to open a NeW Thread on Mil.Aviation (yes, I've clicked on the button like the man says, but nowt happens), I'll put it on for anyone who might be interested, then it can lapse into oblivion.
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 25th Jul 2015 at 01:00. Reason: Error
Whilst I had been away those four years there had been some changes. Where previously the aircraft had been predominately British registered with a couple of Chinese ones the position was now reversed. They had bought several aircraft including two brand new ones. We now had variety on the outside and also in the inside. The first two they had bought, 7951 and 2, had metric instruments, so the altimeters were in metres and the airspeed in kilometres/hour. Metric height was easy, the Chinese, as do the Russians and French, use metric flight levels and it was quite pleasant with your ASI reading 250 instead of 135. I had only known system pressures and temperatures in Pumas to be metric but one was in lbs/sqin and horrifically high numbers they were too.
The days of pumping 2,500lbs of fuel in it and going anywhere had gone. There were several new platforms, some extensions of the old fields but others further out. They had already surveyed an area close to the 200 mile territorial limit and the disputes were starting into who owned which island or sandbar in the South China Sea.
China had the advantage of having 3,000 years of recorded history so some admiral would have landed on some island, slammed the Emperor’s standard in the ground and claimed it for China; at the same time he would have wrote it down. He may well have been chased of by the natives the next day but they didn’t, or couldn’t, write it down so China had the only record as to who possessed it at that time. I know from my contacts there that there are zillions of barrels of oil and cubic feet of gas in that sea. They just need the political settlements to start producing it.
I was only going to be able to work there for six months before the dreaded 65 point came up. The company did not have any spare pilots to send to China, that’s why I was there. They had filled some positions with pilots from their Australian operation. One of these was a training captain and also a Australian CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) examiner. Talking about my impending doom he suggested I get an Australian licence because they did not have an age limit for public transport. He pointed out that Qantas pilots who have to stop flying 747s around the world because of the ICAO limit end up flying 737s between Sydney and Melbourne so that they can pay their alimony and children’s university fees.
I thought that there might be a limit on the age that you could apply for a licence but apparently there wasn’t. Retirees had started flying and progressed up to commercial flying with no problem. The only limit was that after your 80th birthday your medical had to be done in Canberra. I thought about it but it wasn’t highly optimistic.
I had my fourth retirement party in the roof garden of Macawley’s, an Irish bar in Shekou. It was the day before Chinese New Year and already the barrage of enormous fireworks had started. There weren’t any speeches; you couldn’t hear yourself think so it was with a heavy heart that I got on the ferry to Chek Lap Kok and the 747 back to the UK.
I had been back about a month and there was this nagging thought about getting an Australian licence. On an impulse I flew back to China to do a bit of research. We established that there were no bars to getting an Oz ATPL(H) as long as I passed the exams. CPL Law, ATPL Law and IREX, the instrument written test. The other problem was China. Would they accept an over sixty five, remembering ICAO, and endorse his licence. The question was put to CAAC and they came back with an affirmative.
There was a smoking trail of shoe leather to the ferry as I went to Hong Kong International, climbed into a Cathy 747 and punched off to Perth.
The days of pumping 2,500lbs of fuel in it and going anywhere had gone. There were several new platforms, some extensions of the old fields but others further out. They had already surveyed an area close to the 200 mile territorial limit and the disputes were starting into who owned which island or sandbar in the South China Sea.
China had the advantage of having 3,000 years of recorded history so some admiral would have landed on some island, slammed the Emperor’s standard in the ground and claimed it for China; at the same time he would have wrote it down. He may well have been chased of by the natives the next day but they didn’t, or couldn’t, write it down so China had the only record as to who possessed it at that time. I know from my contacts there that there are zillions of barrels of oil and cubic feet of gas in that sea. They just need the political settlements to start producing it.
I was only going to be able to work there for six months before the dreaded 65 point came up. The company did not have any spare pilots to send to China, that’s why I was there. They had filled some positions with pilots from their Australian operation. One of these was a training captain and also a Australian CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) examiner. Talking about my impending doom he suggested I get an Australian licence because they did not have an age limit for public transport. He pointed out that Qantas pilots who have to stop flying 747s around the world because of the ICAO limit end up flying 737s between Sydney and Melbourne so that they can pay their alimony and children’s university fees.
I thought that there might be a limit on the age that you could apply for a licence but apparently there wasn’t. Retirees had started flying and progressed up to commercial flying with no problem. The only limit was that after your 80th birthday your medical had to be done in Canberra. I thought about it but it wasn’t highly optimistic.
I had my fourth retirement party in the roof garden of Macawley’s, an Irish bar in Shekou. It was the day before Chinese New Year and already the barrage of enormous fireworks had started. There weren’t any speeches; you couldn’t hear yourself think so it was with a heavy heart that I got on the ferry to Chek Lap Kok and the 747 back to the UK.
I had been back about a month and there was this nagging thought about getting an Australian licence. On an impulse I flew back to China to do a bit of research. We established that there were no bars to getting an Oz ATPL(H) as long as I passed the exams. CPL Law, ATPL Law and IREX, the instrument written test. The other problem was China. Would they accept an over sixty five, remembering ICAO, and endorse his licence. The question was put to CAAC and they came back with an affirmative.
There was a smoking trail of shoe leather to the ferry as I went to Hong Kong International, climbed into a Cathy 747 and punched off to Perth.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 25th Jul 2015 at 15:08.
Danny , Sir, there may be many a reason why your laptop cannot start a new thread in the military forum section.
Might I suggest starting the thread from a different laptop. and then continue replying to the thread from your own airframe.
Enjoy the weekend,
Fionn
Might I suggest starting the thread from a different laptop. and then continue replying to the thread from your own airframe.
Enjoy the weekend,
Fionn