CHF - Merlin Mk 4
B_PLT - OCEA found it quite hard work to embark, train and integrate the Apache. Ship's Air and AE Dept are working hand in hand with the REME LAD to keep it going, but it is not an ideal situation, and some fairly hefty changes would have to take place if it were to become an enduring task (i.e. continual re-embarkations).
AAC (all of them from CO downwards) are carrying out Sea Survival training to make them safe to go to sea, adding to the training burden of the Squadrons.
So what of all of this? Like any squadron embarking, there is faff and hard work required by all concerned to make it happen, but crucially the Air and AE Department (all WAFUs) have been the key enablers. Remove that provision and the game stops. If you want RAF or AAC chaps embarking OCEA or QE for 2 years at a time to be F or Wings knock yourself out, otherwise I would suggest that there is a defined requirement for WAFUs to keep current on the type of operations OCEA or QE would be called upon to do.
AAC (all of them from CO downwards) are carrying out Sea Survival training to make them safe to go to sea, adding to the training burden of the Squadrons.
So what of all of this? Like any squadron embarking, there is faff and hard work required by all concerned to make it happen, but crucially the Air and AE Department (all WAFUs) have been the key enablers. Remove that provision and the game stops. If you want RAF or AAC chaps embarking OCEA or QE for 2 years at a time to be F or Wings knock yourself out, otherwise I would suggest that there is a defined requirement for WAFUs to keep current on the type of operations OCEA or QE would be called upon to do.
USN CVN
BPLT
It might surprise you to know that by Federal statute the CO of a USN CVN has to be a naval aviator. It would seem that our cousins know a thing or two about safe operation of aircraft at sea and what it takes to sustain that capability, they've only been doing it continually for nearly 80 years. Also, from my (limited time) onboard Dwight D Eisenhower I noticed several of the aviators standing watch on the bridge.
Of course we could just follow the dictat of the (unwilling, unqualified, uninterested) Few!
Nick
but I wonder if USN/USMC aircrew do OOW on US aircraft carriers? I'm pretty sure they don't - once you get above a certain ship size (crew size) it is neither necessary nor desirable, just inefficient
Of course we could just follow the dictat of the (unwilling, unqualified, uninterested) Few!
Nick
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Can the RAF operate from the O boat into the long term with Merlin? Ans Yes of course they could, but they would need to invest in the maritime environment.
This means more time working up the ship and ship's company in maritime Ops and taking the ship through BOST/OST etc. This will require time away even before the deployment of many months. Naturally the harmony rules will have to be revised as the RN currently requires up to 660 days away in a 3 year period. All perfectly achievable and on this point all of the forces should have been aligned ages ago.
This will also mean that the posts of Wings, Little F, F2 (argggggh) should be manned by RAF aircrew over the 2-3 year tour, pretty much permanently at sea. But all achievable in time.
The AAC have worked extremely well in Libya and from baby steps have worked up to be more than proficient in the maritime environment - albeit in the med lol (with the help of embedded exchange RN crews). However, this has taken a while and with the RIP of the new Sqn, this process will start all over again. This demonstrates that if we want a credible amphib capability able to respond to whatever our lords and masters throw at us, it must be practised and maintained into the long term; no lilly-padding! The RAF could achieve this and it could be made to work.
I simply believe that CHF are the right people to take on this task. Whether you want to give them the Merlin or as some of you have pointed out a much better answer would be the CH47. They have the experience in depth, from aircrew to AEM, and once the current war and financial restraint has passed, the appetite to go to sea.
Giving the task to the RAF is surely a riskier venture; for the RAF as well as Amphib capability. However, I am pretty sure they could make it work, but it would be a poisoned challis for them.
The whole watchkeeping ticket is an absolute red herring as the ship never relies on wafus to sustain the roster. However, the RN philosophy is very much all of one company and understanding other roles and integration of the FAA is very important for greater understanding of the maritime environment and avoiding a them and us culture.
It looks to me as though these points have been weighed up and the answer that fell out was in favour of CHF!
H
This means more time working up the ship and ship's company in maritime Ops and taking the ship through BOST/OST etc. This will require time away even before the deployment of many months. Naturally the harmony rules will have to be revised as the RN currently requires up to 660 days away in a 3 year period. All perfectly achievable and on this point all of the forces should have been aligned ages ago.
This will also mean that the posts of Wings, Little F, F2 (argggggh) should be manned by RAF aircrew over the 2-3 year tour, pretty much permanently at sea. But all achievable in time.
The AAC have worked extremely well in Libya and from baby steps have worked up to be more than proficient in the maritime environment - albeit in the med lol (with the help of embedded exchange RN crews). However, this has taken a while and with the RIP of the new Sqn, this process will start all over again. This demonstrates that if we want a credible amphib capability able to respond to whatever our lords and masters throw at us, it must be practised and maintained into the long term; no lilly-padding! The RAF could achieve this and it could be made to work.
I simply believe that CHF are the right people to take on this task. Whether you want to give them the Merlin or as some of you have pointed out a much better answer would be the CH47. They have the experience in depth, from aircrew to AEM, and once the current war and financial restraint has passed, the appetite to go to sea.
Giving the task to the RAF is surely a riskier venture; for the RAF as well as Amphib capability. However, I am pretty sure they could make it work, but it would be a poisoned challis for them.
The whole watchkeeping ticket is an absolute red herring as the ship never relies on wafus to sustain the roster. However, the RN philosophy is very much all of one company and understanding other roles and integration of the FAA is very important for greater understanding of the maritime environment and avoiding a them and us culture.
It looks to me as though these points have been weighed up and the answer that fell out was in favour of CHF!
H
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Sorry, but I must beg to differ, 845, 46 48 have not embarked in the past few years for anything close to the harmony limits. Standfast the grey fleets, who by their nature regulary do. There is plenty of scope for Wings and little F to come from the Wider FAA there are no rules saying he/she must come from the CHF. From my close association with 84x I cannot see what couldn't be done by the RAF SH force or better still a joint force. You go on about the amphibious role but other than flying from a ship which both Chinook and AH have done in the past the tactical flying at the other end is the same old same. Using your augument, then only the RAF SH should carry out RW land based ops in Afghan Sorry I still can see no compelling evidence to suggest that only the RN could maintain the role if it came to it. Finally, harmony is negotiated by the single services. If the RN has not managed to negotiate better for it's personnel then thats a problem for the RN to address without bringing everyone else down. Perhaps topmast failed for a reason.
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All of last few pages of this thread still doesn't address the issue of capability. Without a cab that has the power, and is maranised(and paid for), there is no capability. If there is no need to marinise, because CHF will not spend enough time at sea with the Merlin, then there is no need to transfer....
I really hope that this does not go ahead on the Mk3. If it does, standby for the RAF to deploy to sea with the RN anyway. On the Chinook...
I really hope that this does not go ahead on the Mk3. If it does, standby for the RAF to deploy to sea with the RN anyway. On the Chinook...
Originally Posted by Neartheend
Sorry, but I must beg to differ, 845, 46 48 have not embarked in the past few years for anything close to the harmony limits...
That's life in a Naval Service dark blue/lovat suit for you. The question is, could embarked light blue air ever compete for operational availability, continuity or cost effectiveness? As I understand it, apart from four weeks late Feb/early March, the French carrier Charles de Gaulle's air group has been flying almost continuous ops since Oct last year. Would an RAF det be capable of doing the same? If you tell me there are plenty of other RAF personnel sitting around in the UK to take their place every 4-6 months, it kind of proves my point about the relative cost effectiveness of the FAA (even the French version).
N - you might be in for a shock when Harmony guidelines are "tri-serviced"...
Indeed Wings and F (and everyone else in the Air Dept) can be not CHF, but on the basis the Stovies can't do it, you're reducing your potential pool to the Baggers and Pingers. The Lynx boys traditionally haven't done it because they've never worked from a big deck.
The wider point is about embarked Maritime Aviation - every argument made about CHF could equally be made about the Baggers (and possibly the 771 Cabs and Grey Merlin). At some point a decision needs to be made - if you fly from the sea, you need to work, properly, from the sea. Light Blue, Dark Blue, Green, at the end of the day I don't care, you just need to lift when I instruct you and keep to the FlyPro....
Indeed Wings and F (and everyone else in the Air Dept) can be not CHF, but on the basis the Stovies can't do it, you're reducing your potential pool to the Baggers and Pingers. The Lynx boys traditionally haven't done it because they've never worked from a big deck.
The wider point is about embarked Maritime Aviation - every argument made about CHF could equally be made about the Baggers (and possibly the 771 Cabs and Grey Merlin). At some point a decision needs to be made - if you fly from the sea, you need to work, properly, from the sea. Light Blue, Dark Blue, Green, at the end of the day I don't care, you just need to lift when I instruct you and keep to the FlyPro....
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At some point a decision needs to be made - if you fly from the sea, you need to work, properly, from the sea.
I know I go on about this but The RAF (and possibly the Army) May end up with a recruitment/retention problem if we go down that route
[url=http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=15992]Jointery - Going to Sea /url]
I know its quite old and cant help but wonder if attitudes have changed. But to me if you turn round to the RAF and say to the chaps "Well 4000-odd of you are now going to take up from where the FAA left off" then I reckon there would be a mass exidous- just like the last time!
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The RN are not bothered about their harmony guidelines as they understand the need to deploy in ships for extended periods. The first thing the RMs want to do when they get back from Herrick is a spot of leave and then off on an ex or more ops. I seem to recall that the RAF would deploy for 4months and 1 day because that would get them the OWP.
Another thing missed recently is that you need to be able to operate from a deck in sea state 6+, I do not think we have done that for a while around the Gulf and Med. That would probably count the AH guys out and make the CH47 go running for their beds.
In terms of capability maybe the CH47s should be split between the Army and RN....only teasing.
Another thing missed recently is that you need to be able to operate from a deck in sea state 6+, I do not think we have done that for a while around the Gulf and Med. That would probably count the AH guys out and make the CH47 go running for their beds.
In terms of capability maybe the CH47s should be split between the Army and RN....only teasing.
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N - you might be in for a shock when Harmony guidelines are "tri-serviced"...
Well 4000-odd of you are now going to take up from where the FAA left off
Re' deployed time away and harmony. I've done a poll on 84X and the most I've found is 160 days in 365 inc PDT and dets. After 2 to 3 years most will rotate through 2nd line billets either in what workshops are left or on the training sqn where the pace is slightly less intensive. The RAF SH are doing about the same but without rotation.
I really don't give a flying big 'F' who ends up with Merlin, but most of whats being said on here bears very little resemblence to what I see here day on day here at Vl. Please lets remain factual rather than emmotive as for the reason why the transfer should take place.
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Please lets remain factual rather than emmotive as for the reason why the transfer should take place.
Re the transfer....it is mostly about emotion because the RAF will not follow a simple order to get on with it. Someone at the top of the shop needs sacking.
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Will not follow a simple order
Last edited by Neartheend; 5th Aug 2011 at 10:02.
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Drove past Yeovilton yesterday, lots of building work going on near one of the hardstandings.....preps for Merlin? Or is it for Wildcat?
Fleet Air Arm Museum has a new restaurant!
Any news on CHF?
Fleet Air Arm Museum has a new restaurant!
Any news on CHF?