EK Pay Review
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not the Brightest Bunch
I will accept the retorts when they come but pilots as a whole and particularly in this company must carry some of the responsibility of the twisted system now in place.
Remuneration should be a function of hours worked for the company. Not hours with the engines running. Does anyone accept that work is not being done because the aircraft is not moving?
Likewise fatigue is a function of hours at work amongst other things - like when the work occursi n the diurnal cycle.
Some basic principles could solve many of the current issues:
1. Accurately account for time at work.
2. Roster to a duty threshold short of a duty limit and then pay overtime.
3. Have realistic limits. 190 hours in 28 days is a farce. No one in EGHQ is expected to do those hours, much less at any time of day. 55 hours may be tolerable in a week but the maximum over 28 should not exceed 140 hours. 35 hours on average per week is a normal 40 hour week discounted to allow rest for diurnal disruption.
4. Pro rata the duty and remuneration in a roster when leave occurs. This is the most obvious flaw in our current system.
Never would they do this I hear you cry.
Well I agree to some extent however some of these principles should be argued. Why do we accept 92 hour rosters that include leave and training? Why do we accept duty starts an hour before departure when the sign in clearly says otherwise? Why do we accept that time in a simulator does not get accounted in flight time? They are zero time simulators. Why do we accept so many other easily arguable things?
Pilots worldwide have accepted the nonsense and facilitated the status quo. I roll my eyes when someone complains of a 95 hour roster. He has bought into the whole fight hours myth. It could be a dream roster if the duty is not above 110 hours. Yet we propagate the stupidity!
Here we have a feedback process. Hell, we can write to the President by invitation! How many have done so and pointed out at least one or two of the irrational issues involved in our rostering and remuneration? Have you even written to anyone a bit further down the ladder and at least produced a written trail of the law bending and financial discrimination?
It gets raised again and again in various forums but that is deniable and unrecorded. Make the effort to put it in writing at whatever opportunity arises. If a mere 10% of the pilot body did this there would be change. 20% would terrify the upper floors.
Don’t complain if you don’t have the intellect, resolve or guts to do anything about it.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle"
Remuneration should be a function of hours worked for the company. Not hours with the engines running. Does anyone accept that work is not being done because the aircraft is not moving?
Likewise fatigue is a function of hours at work amongst other things - like when the work occursi n the diurnal cycle.
Some basic principles could solve many of the current issues:
1. Accurately account for time at work.
2. Roster to a duty threshold short of a duty limit and then pay overtime.
3. Have realistic limits. 190 hours in 28 days is a farce. No one in EGHQ is expected to do those hours, much less at any time of day. 55 hours may be tolerable in a week but the maximum over 28 should not exceed 140 hours. 35 hours on average per week is a normal 40 hour week discounted to allow rest for diurnal disruption.
4. Pro rata the duty and remuneration in a roster when leave occurs. This is the most obvious flaw in our current system.
Never would they do this I hear you cry.
Well I agree to some extent however some of these principles should be argued. Why do we accept 92 hour rosters that include leave and training? Why do we accept duty starts an hour before departure when the sign in clearly says otherwise? Why do we accept that time in a simulator does not get accounted in flight time? They are zero time simulators. Why do we accept so many other easily arguable things?
Pilots worldwide have accepted the nonsense and facilitated the status quo. I roll my eyes when someone complains of a 95 hour roster. He has bought into the whole fight hours myth. It could be a dream roster if the duty is not above 110 hours. Yet we propagate the stupidity!
Here we have a feedback process. Hell, we can write to the President by invitation! How many have done so and pointed out at least one or two of the irrational issues involved in our rostering and remuneration? Have you even written to anyone a bit further down the ladder and at least produced a written trail of the law bending and financial discrimination?
It gets raised again and again in various forums but that is deniable and unrecorded. Make the effort to put it in writing at whatever opportunity arises. If a mere 10% of the pilot body did this there would be change. 20% would terrify the upper floors.
Don’t complain if you don’t have the intellect, resolve or guts to do anything about it.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle"
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: on earth
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ByeByeDubai
I am 100% with you on that one , each time a guy complain on the flight deck about the company I ask him always the same question " What have you done about it ? "
The answer is ALWAYS " nothing , we don't have a union here " or " I don't want to be in trouble " etc...
So I tell him to stop to complain if he is not ready to fight for it.
Too many pilots expect the others to do something for them with always an excuse for not doing anything themselves ( they have a family to feed , a mortgage to pay etc... )
If you are not ready to ACT stop complaining
I am 100% with you on that one , each time a guy complain on the flight deck about the company I ask him always the same question " What have you done about it ? "
The answer is ALWAYS " nothing , we don't have a union here " or " I don't want to be in trouble " etc...
So I tell him to stop to complain if he is not ready to fight for it.
Too many pilots expect the others to do something for them with always an excuse for not doing anything themselves ( they have a family to feed , a mortgage to pay etc... )
If you are not ready to ACT stop complaining
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 53
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gong,
A rather simplistic view I'd say.
So you buy into the "if you don't like then leave" bull**** and are happy to lay down and be taken advantage of? Pathetic.
Many of us do what we can within the boundaries of common sense and self preservation to make changes but without the backing of a collective, you are very limited. Many pilots have just left as its the only option in many cases...but they did do something. This forum and the postings within have likely saved many pilots from coming here to certain disappointment and they have perhaps learned from the mistakes of others. Don't forget, this company USED to be a great company to work for.
I'd suggest by your statement that you either don't have a family or if you do, then don't give a toss about providing for them with some degree of confidence.
There are other ways of making the company take notice and listen and its starting to happen now, its only a question of when the management pulls their head out of the sand.
A rather simplistic view I'd say.
So you buy into the "if you don't like then leave" bull**** and are happy to lay down and be taken advantage of? Pathetic.
Many of us do what we can within the boundaries of common sense and self preservation to make changes but without the backing of a collective, you are very limited. Many pilots have just left as its the only option in many cases...but they did do something. This forum and the postings within have likely saved many pilots from coming here to certain disappointment and they have perhaps learned from the mistakes of others. Don't forget, this company USED to be a great company to work for.
I'd suggest by your statement that you either don't have a family or if you do, then don't give a toss about providing for them with some degree of confidence.
There are other ways of making the company take notice and listen and its starting to happen now, its only a question of when the management pulls their head out of the sand.
Last edited by The Outlaw; 21st May 2015 at 05:35. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: nowhere
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And it is the last thursday before the paycheck and no news......
They are aware that they have to give something in order to retain/attract people but they hate it.......
What makes me worry is that if they have this kind of attitude during good times i really dont know what the will do when bad times will come.........
They are aware that they have to give something in order to retain/attract people but they hate it.......
What makes me worry is that if they have this kind of attitude during good times i really dont know what the will do when bad times will come.........
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even Putin has an open e-mail and invites his comrades to write to him. He has an open TV forum where everyone can call and ask questions. Needless to say that all of it is supposedly guaranteed without any repercussions for any author (!!!), as long as you stay within the boundaries of respect. But it is the power itself who defines the boundaries of respect. Otherwise it has to protect the nation and confine liberties and the right to speak, which happening right now, just read the news.
Does that ring a bell?
I guess the lecturing contributors above would wholeheartedly agree and sign the following statement:
If a mere 10% of Russians did this (write and complain) there would be change. 20% would terrify the upper floors (regime).
Good luck. I don't.
As long as power is so unilaterally distributed (as here), the power in charge will never listen. That is not my humble opinion or wisdom, that's interpretation of history!
The only force that historically was able to tumble any dictatorial regime was passive resistance (i guess that is what the Outlaw is referring to), but never some letter to the president ......
Does that ring a bell?
I guess the lecturing contributors above would wholeheartedly agree and sign the following statement:
If a mere 10% of Russians did this (write and complain) there would be change. 20% would terrify the upper floors (regime).
Good luck. I don't.
As long as power is so unilaterally distributed (as here), the power in charge will never listen. That is not my humble opinion or wisdom, that's interpretation of history!
The only force that historically was able to tumble any dictatorial regime was passive resistance (i guess that is what the Outlaw is referring to), but never some letter to the president ......
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: the ridge where the west commences
Posts: 770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, the passive resistance clanger.
Passive resistance only works where there is a free press. If Gandhi had tried his stunts in Stalin's Russia you would have never have heard of him and his remains would be mouldering in a mass grave somewhere.
Passive resistance only works where there is a free press. If Gandhi had tried his stunts in Stalin's Russia you would have never have heard of him and his remains would be mouldering in a mass grave somewhere.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russia? Stalin? Ghandi? Self Preservation?
My! We are a collection of shadow jumping meerkats.
Let me get this right. You write polite, well constructed, factual letter/email on an issue, with no histrionics or accusations and you fear dismissal, midnight visits, gulags or execution?
I guess that answers two questions. Many frequent posters have obviously never written as either they would not be here or they would - because none of their fears transpired.
When the company changed the staff travel arrangements and thousands wrote in, were they all sent packing or did it change? When they introduced a cap on utilities in company accommodation and many wrote in what happened? It quietly died. These are not the only examples.
I have written in a number of times and made my point. Normally nothing happens except a polite reply that it will be looked into. It seldom is followed up. Occasionally if it part of a bigger group that has written, change occurs in some form. I know a few others who have done the same. I haven’t yet heard of any case of cruel prosecution. The problem is a few are easy to ignore. So generally they do.
There are many who moan on this forum, in the flight deck and around the bar. Few act. Hence pilots are where they are, and it will only get worse.
Rationalise is however you want, but take a hard look at yourselves.
My! We are a collection of shadow jumping meerkats.
Let me get this right. You write polite, well constructed, factual letter/email on an issue, with no histrionics or accusations and you fear dismissal, midnight visits, gulags or execution?
I guess that answers two questions. Many frequent posters have obviously never written as either they would not be here or they would - because none of their fears transpired.
When the company changed the staff travel arrangements and thousands wrote in, were they all sent packing or did it change? When they introduced a cap on utilities in company accommodation and many wrote in what happened? It quietly died. These are not the only examples.
I have written in a number of times and made my point. Normally nothing happens except a polite reply that it will be looked into. It seldom is followed up. Occasionally if it part of a bigger group that has written, change occurs in some form. I know a few others who have done the same. I haven’t yet heard of any case of cruel prosecution. The problem is a few are easy to ignore. So generally they do.
There are many who moan on this forum, in the flight deck and around the bar. Few act. Hence pilots are where they are, and it will only get worse.
Rationalise is however you want, but take a hard look at yourselves.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBD:
Could you clarify? I don't get it.
Concerning the metaphors, they are generally accepted to clarify a point, ridiculing them is generally considered having weak arguments.
My point is:
I have written, only to get no answer and no change.
I have acted. Only to get called in and receive a letter!
Go figure. The power and interest disparity is too big and one sided.
In my experience writing is futile in the actual circumstances.
But then again, that's only my opinion, i respect yours.
Simply please don't patronise if dissenting.
Dropp:
Have you actually studied some recent history? Like the rise and fall of the GDR? Do you really believe in what you wrote? Fair enough if you do, but you should not be condescending about people who don't ("Ah, the passive resistance clanger").
Passive resistance is happening right now, right here.
Voting with your feet is passive resistance.
Not applying to the holy company is passive resistance.
Not caring about FCIs and simply trashing without reading Alans mail is passive resistance.
And it is working ...... definitely more than writing to the teflon coated and even with a not so "free" press environment.
Many frequent posters have obviously never written as either they would not be here or they would - because none of their fears transpired
Concerning the metaphors, they are generally accepted to clarify a point, ridiculing them is generally considered having weak arguments.
My point is:
I have written, only to get no answer and no change.
I have acted. Only to get called in and receive a letter!
Go figure. The power and interest disparity is too big and one sided.
In my experience writing is futile in the actual circumstances.
But then again, that's only my opinion, i respect yours.
Simply please don't patronise if dissenting.
Dropp:
Passive resistance only works where there is a free press
Passive resistance is happening right now, right here.
Voting with your feet is passive resistance.
Not applying to the holy company is passive resistance.
Not caring about FCIs and simply trashing without reading Alans mail is passive resistance.
And it is working ...... definitely more than writing to the teflon coated and even with a not so "free" press environment.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Skywards
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Four jailed for life after insulting UAE on Twitter
Just look at why and what is in the inverted comma's
Just look at why and what is in the inverted comma's
His response is "I hope to be able to put out something very soon". Which pretty much equates to his response last year.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was that the same training day which started with a 'we are short of pilots' statement by an SVP and ended with a 'no we're not, attrition rate is normal' by a DSVP. Did like the subtle slide of the river as a backdrop for the finale. What river was it? The Nile. Or as they might say in Africa...."De Nile" That 's exactly what some senior management are in.....
If we're not short of pilots, why the f*Łk are we not all getting our 42 days leave per year. Stop treating us like idiots.
Harry
If we're not short of pilots, why the f*Łk are we not all getting our 42 days leave per year. Stop treating us like idiots.
Harry
I hear you Harry.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: England
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why do it?
Ok, so I already know the answer.......BUT WHY DO IT???
I can live with a company trying to maximise their bottom line etc, but what is being gained by not saying anything about the pay review? I've tried to think of something but keep coming up with nowt....
Last year we went through the same circus act with TCAS sending an email at the 11th hour to say ( hold nose whilst reading aloud ), "We are still working on it and will let you know as soon as we can".
To my simple mind this is farcical. Lets not pretend that they don't already know what's going to be offered. This is an intentional delay in disseminating information for some yet to be discovered reason. The result is that the entire company is frustrated and angry, not at the probable minuscule rise, but at the sheer lack of respect in communicating their intentions. There must be some phycological mind game trick that benefits them ( that I'm missing), but it seems that all that is gained is pissing us all off??
I know it will be back dated etc and I'm fine with that, but its so unnecessary and damaging to the already poor moral of the troops. I'm shaking my head here, Why do it?
I can live with a company trying to maximise their bottom line etc, but what is being gained by not saying anything about the pay review? I've tried to think of something but keep coming up with nowt....
Last year we went through the same circus act with TCAS sending an email at the 11th hour to say ( hold nose whilst reading aloud ), "We are still working on it and will let you know as soon as we can".
To my simple mind this is farcical. Lets not pretend that they don't already know what's going to be offered. This is an intentional delay in disseminating information for some yet to be discovered reason. The result is that the entire company is frustrated and angry, not at the probable minuscule rise, but at the sheer lack of respect in communicating their intentions. There must be some phycological mind game trick that benefits them ( that I'm missing), but it seems that all that is gained is pissing us all off??
I know it will be back dated etc and I'm fine with that, but its so unnecessary and damaging to the already poor moral of the troops. I'm shaking my head here, Why do it?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think they are doing it to slow the pace of resignations. Hope is a powerful thing. If they know the reaction will be disappointment then they are better off delaying as long as possible. Talking about going back to the States, Europe, over to China, etc is one thing. Actually pulling the kids out of school and moving the family is another. As long as the hope of a change in rostering/pay raise is in the back of your mind you will probably delay filling out that application or going to an overseas assessment.