Qualified, with no-where to go - Last call for my career

[Dsjamieson]

Hi,

I am sure this is an echo of an age old thread where someone comes on here to ask for information about pilot careers etc etc.
For me this is a little different, I am using this to get a gauge of peoples opinions of where is should go next. Whilst I would normally take opinions of strangers with a pinch of salt, I think I can find comfort in knowing that the people who are going to be replying to this are mostly well informed. More informed than your average civilian with not much know how in the Aviation world.
Not only that, pilots talking to pilots are all friends right?

Anyway my situation goes:
- CPL ME/IR MCC/JOC (JAR licence - Not got a new one yet.. See below)
- 215 Hours total time
- Last flew 21/08/2011 for my 2nd CPL/IR renewal

After my initial over 6 years ago i started to figure that the downturn in the economy was going to bite hard. I did two renewals. Realised i would be better off trying to save up. So i let it lapse to try and pick up something in the future.

I moved away to Austria to become a resort manager for a tour company thinking i might have a back-route in to the companys airline. WRONG.

Still in Austria sat in on a Friday night knowing now that money i threw at chasing my dream was not going to be enough. I have about £5000 to my name (No debt) and i'm 30 in June 2016. Hindsight eh?
I realise i might be better off than some but i'm trying to be realistic.

I have searched around for work, type ratings but just do not have the funds to throw more money at what seems to be a huge gamble.
My licence is still lapsed along with my medical.

Basically what i'm asking for here is, opinions. Dream over? Too old? Still a chance with another £100,000? Flying instructor? Left it too long? Opportunity somewhere? Sell my licence back to the CAA for the £90,000 i spent?
I am actually tired of trying to give myself answers and hope and I feel like the reality of this is it is over for me unless i stumble on a suitcase full of €500 notes i should just look for another career.

Again, I just need realistic opinions and/or options on my situation. Doesn't matter how brutal they are as i think i have already resigned to using my Blue CPL licence as an expensive paperweight.

I would really appreciate some thoughts and I thank you in advance for your time.

Kindest regards and safe flying,
David

[RexBanner]

Plus you're thinking of joining an industry where the merest ill wind blows (economic/geopolitical or otherwise) and the entire industry is goosed. Look at the current ISIS situation with the Metrojet A321 in Sharm. If it is confirmed it's an ISIS bombing then all bets are off as regards to the current favourable job market.

If they successfully manage to bring another one down (certainly not out of the realms of possibility or imagination given that there are large areas of the world with gaping holes in security) then quite frankly it's game over for this industry for another ten years at least.

This industry is so precarious that make sure you carefully think if you really want to be exposing your entire economic well being and peace of mind to it year upon year?

(I mean absolutely no disrespect to the victims - God rest their souls - by saying this but in some ways it's a relief that it was "just" a Russian charter airline that got hit because had it been easyJet or BA the job adverts on this website would be pulled overnight and the current recruiting climate gone in an instant. Not meaning this to trivialise the lives lost just to point out the obvious possibilities had it been closer to home. And as I said this will happen if another one goes down, regardless of the operator).

[AMS]

Will a bomb really affect air travel in the long term?

People will still travel - the costs may increase to combat risk in the short term.... But the growth will still continue ..... I think - discuss.......

[RexBanner]

Of course it will. The western media feed us a daily dose of Isis beheadings and atrocities, the background uneasiness has already been formed. The real reason the public haven't taken it more to heart so far is because they perceive it to be a problem far away from our shores. The cold, hard realisation will hit home in a big way if a Western airline is hit.

The tactics of Isis thus far have been to focus on the territory they want to control in the Middle East rather than attack the outside world. If this is Isis it marks a radical shift of strategy (very likely a suicidal one in the long term because the entire world will be united against them) that will set the world ablaze.

Just look at how Americans stopped travelling in droves during Gulf War One. The theatre of war was nowhere near Europe but the perceived risk still won out.

Getting back to the original topic this guy doesn't have time to play the long game, it would be different MAYBE if he was 18 years old or so. Telling him he has already spent £90k so what's a little bit more to add to the pile is just about the worst advice anyone could ever give. It's akin to chasing your losses in a Vegas casino, at some point you have to call a halt to it rather than piling debt upon debt. Especially in an industry like this where the ends don't justify the means, especially with it being so fraught and exposed, with airline execs constantly putting downward pressure on salaries.

[Luke SkyToddler]

'just get more hours' also seems like poor advice; What good are another 50 or 100 hours on a SEP going to do, other than drain your bank again?

Yeah you're right, **** I mean you've got a whopping 260 hours so you already know everything there is to know, a few hundred more even if it's in a single couldn't possibly teach you anything, let alone look good on a CV

God forbid that you should get off your ass and go find a job, any kind of job, single engine or otherwise, halfway around the world or otherwise, instructing or banner towing or aerial photography or skydiving or whatever the hell you can, to get some hours in that logbook and build that experience.

It's a much better plan to work at Tesco and go slowly uncurrent while you spam CVs in the mail and cry on pprune about how unfair the industry is

[Dsjamieson]

Thanks you all for your comments!

Council Van - This is one of the first things that I checked with the CAA - 7 Years from the date of your last rating expiry. I have 7 years from August 2012.

I know i'm not the first one and I wont be the last.

[Mickey Kaye]

Don't take this the wrong way but you haven't flown for 4 years so your going to be behind the curve. In fact my local Aieral photography company would overlook you when looking for some one to fly their Cessna 150.

Add an SEP rating if you haven't already got one. Then complete an FI course over the winter and then try and get a job next spring/summer and start off part time (sat and sun) and have a proper job to help make ends meet.

There a fair bit of movment at the moment and I know quite a few instructors who have moved on over the last few months and none of them had more than a thousend hours.

[254HEAVY]

Dsjamieson

Have you considered this?

http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...ial-guide.html

Many have had success after 2-3 years in the Delta plus a life time adventurous memories!

Being with zero debt it's a WINNER by it's self. Many have jobs flying shinny jets but the amount of debts they have is driving them insane!

All the best mate!

[perceval]

Hi ,
I've gone through your post and the replies ( even the sarcastic one , but that's the internet for you :-) )
I can't help but agree with the previous posters . If you still want to fly , there's options out there but , realistically , I wouldn't spend too much money on anything expensive at this stage . Get yourself current and add an FI ( A ) , there's quite a bit of demand for it at the moment and with some experience ( a year down the line ? ) you can even score a decent job somewhere outside of Europe ( still as a FI ) . At least it will increase your marketability and your networking opportunities while providing a salary . As you go along , increase your instructional capabilities ( ME/IR/CRM...) and get a broader experience . I recently knew a young Spanish guy who instructed for about a year at home , then moved to a small but decent flying school inThailand ( Hard work no ? ) for a year or two and eventually got into RYR . IMHO it really is a question of : Do you want to fly ? If the answer is yes , just go for it but you need to get your backside in an aircraft , any aircraft . The SEP in Africa ( Bots or Tanzania ) option isn't bad either but I would start by the FI(A) and get to 1000 hours before going that direction ( Personal experience ) . In any case : BEST OF LUCK !!!

[space-shuttle-driver]

Botswana, Tanzania...GREAT places to start a flying career. I wish I could be 25y younger....

[beardedclam]

7 years from initial IR pass to RHS on A321. 4 IR renewals. Self-funded type rating (ATPLs will be fine) Worth it? Ask me in 12 months..... Things are happening in the industry at moment. No, don't give up, but have a second basket for your eggs....
To those who condemn the self funded TR. I met / trained with 7 complete strangers in Berlin who I keep in touch with. 6 of us were employed within 12 months of type rating. Don't shoot the messenger, but for the overwhelming majority, a frozen ATPL is "incomplete" without a type-rating. (It stinks, yes STINKS, but not one of the 24 starters with me at my airline was an FI or "air taxi" or glider pilot or turboprop grafter. All self funded airbus candidates or, spit, CTC children.)

[Luke SkyToddler]

@ Perceval - I was replying to another guy who has subsequently deleted his comment. Basically it went along the lines of "I'd really like some advice what to do as well, I have 260 hours total so obviously I don't need any more time in single engines, please advise how to get a jet job".

To the OP, I agree with the other posters, bush flying or FI is probably your only way back into the business at this stage, being 5 years uncurrent with just the bare licence and 200 hours is a pretty tough mountain to climb. You will have to spend some money on just remembering how to fly again. Go pick a school, talk to them honestly about your situation, say you want to do some recurrency flying and an FI rating, is there a chance of employment at the end of it?

[goaround737]

Its always sad to hear a story like this, and the thousands who will read the thread will no doubt not be nodding their heads in solemn unison at your unfortunate situation.

The fact of the matter is that less than half of those who complete the training will go on to land jobs and a career as a pilot. It’s a sad reflection of the industry and an even poorer reflection of the FTO’s who will actively hide this fact from you. This is a depressing thought for you, I’d imagine, but don’t beat yourself up about it. Due to the advent of self-funded TR’s and P2F there will be lesser individuals who’s careers will accelerate off into the distance, leaving you behind. It’s no reflection on you, it’s just the way the industry is now.

“Should you continue”- It’s a tricky question. I think I will side with the majority here and say that with your lack of currency etc, you are decidedly less attractive to a potential employer. That being said, all is not lost, there are still avenues open to you. I’d forget about firing CV’s off to Airlines and concentrate on more face-to-face opportunities where you will get a chance to present yourself in person and sell yourself. This could be dropping in to the offices of Private Jet operators to hand in a CV or applying for Operations positions where you are more likely to get called for interview, Im sure you get the idea, but at least here you will have an advantage over the thousands of emailed or mailed CV’s these firms receive each month.

This may sound soul destroying for you (and it is!) but trust me, it works. I was in a similar situation to yours about 2.5 years after qualifying, so shifted my focus. I had my first job shortly afterwards and am now on my second free type rating. Most of my colleagues at my first job got in this way too. Things then become very, very much easier with hours and a TR under your belt.

Your success in this job is inextricably linked to your will to continue. I can’t say if throwing another £100k at it will help you, deep down only you know the answer to this. By this same measure you will also be acutely aware of how life looks for you if you throw in the towel now and melt off into suburbia with an office job?

Good luck.

[Wodka]

If your thinking about giving it another go... I think you might need to lower your expectations and devise a game plan that involves more than CV bombing.

Look at this industry from all angles - cabin crew, flight ops, sweeping the hangar floor... many of us started out this way just to be close to flying and this method often or not produces an opportunity. Your debt free... that is a massive advantage as it means you can accept the lowest paid GA flying job to get you going.

The hard thing for you to accept will be that you might be another 4/5 years away from an airline job because if you REALLY want it, then you need to put in some serious groundwork and create an environment for yourself that produces leads.

Suggestions -

FI rating as suggested or Glider towing (now is the time to look for summer '16 gigs)

With those hours move onto... Para dropping - 500hrs should get you some interest.

Build time to 1000hrs or so... then go for regional TP outfits (you will prob have to self fund a TR though)

While your doing all this (and now current) start applying for the bigger jobs again and you may get lucky but now at least your current and back in the industry.

OR... work in an airline with an established internal scheme - eg easyJet after 18months service. Research them.

This is a 2/3/4/5 year time frame. The amount of luck and timing will determine which end of this time frame you end up on.

In summary you need to decide whether to get up, get motivated and get real or just get on with the rest of your life.

[Dsjamieson]

I understand how repetitive this thread is and how easy it may be to look down and say "get off your ass and do something about it".
With these replies i've had none of this so i really appreciate your time and effort to help a fellow out!

Many thanks for all your responses. This has given me a little lift and broadened my understanding of how other people succeeded.

Keep them coming if anyone has any other ideas please submit too.

Hope to see some of you on the flight deck one day!

Cheers,
David

[B2N2]

The long version is too long so here is my story in a nutshell:

• '91 PPL
• '95 FAA IR and CPL
• '95-'00 broke and living paycheck to paycheck with no powered flight time
• Late '99 borrowed money from an ad in the TV Guide (no joke)
• '00 left for America
• '00-'13 Flight Instructor
• '13-'15 Charter Pilot CJ 2 made PIC early '15
• Nov '15 starting as FO on a 737....

It's not too late for you, I was 30 when I packed up and left.
USA is no option for you now after 9-11 and 2008 unless you go to Embry Riddle for a degree and instruct there...mucho dinero.

Europe: Apply as cabin crew and go from there, personally know somebody who did this and he's now on the 747 with BA

Africa, Far East: as suggested above.

Personally know somebody who at 50 got his first paying job in Indonesia, he's now PIC SE Turbine.

If you're not ready to burn bridges behind you consider time building programs like:
Home - Tropic Air Pilot Program | Build Turbine Time in Belize | Fly up to 100 Hours Per Month
Eagle Jet International, Inc.

But don't sit around and think too long....get up and RUN!!!

[Andy_R]

I started flying when I was 35. After a lot of stops and starts I finally got my PPL when I was 39!

I was then totally addicted; I bought a share in a C152 and flew the wings off it for a period of 18 months. I flew that to Italy, Corsica, France and all around the UK. Not hour building, I had no intention of doing anything other than just enjoying my shiny new licence and boy I enjoyed it. I learned to fly formation, aerobatics, did my tailwheel, bought a share in a TB10, then amongst three of us bought a Bulldog.

I was running my own small business at the time, enjoying my leisure time. I was well and truly hooked. I obtained my IMC rating along with my night rating...the trouble with flying is there is always another rating or qualification to get, something else to learn.

I was not happy doing what I was doing. I worked silly hours, with little reward. It got me thinking; could I actually do this commercially and earn a living at it?

Long story short, I suffered a breakdown in a long term relationship of ten years, I sold my business, for just enough to finance me to live whilst I completed my ATPL theory. I obtained my HGV licence which helped to pay a few bills by taking work when I could through an agency...usually night trunking.
I started my CPL course at the beginning of 2009, having passed my ATPL exams in December 2008. I had around 700 hours at this point. Making the small amount of money I got through selling up was becoming difficult so I had to take on more part time work to keep a roof over my head. I sold my share in the Bulldog, a very sad day indeed. That paid for a CRI qualification.

Selling my relatively new 5 year old car got me the funds to complete my MEP in June that year. I then got a full time office job to keep being able to pay the bills and keep the roof over my head. With some assistance from someone on here for who I am forever grateful, I started my MEIR in August 2010. I sold my beloved Series II Land Rover to assist in this.

The day before my IR Test I was taken ill and ended up in hospital. I blame it on living in a tent near the airfield for a month during the wettest August on record.

I had just about run out of money, having only enough to take the test and I finally passed my IR that October.

A lot of people said I was wasting my time, I would never get a job in aviation at my age.

I spent a lot of time making mainly speculative applications. The job market was not as buoyant then as it is now. Every month or so I would update them with my most recent CV. I recorded this all on an excel spreadsheet; all 3218 of them.
I got a sole airline interview in Gothenberg along with a sim ride; nobody was employed from those interviews, plans change rapidly in aviation.

I started part time with a local company in a MEP role, right hand seat, initially unpaid, using TOIL earned from my day job. I was lucky enough to also get a small amount of charter work in a Baron, a Seneca and a Cessna 303, as well as building time and experience on a Chieftain. I also obtained my FI rating, flying whatever I could, whenever I could.

Just before Christmas 2012 I received a call from one of the companies I worked part time for, offering me a full time role flying MEP around the UK, Europe, Africa and the Middle East. I would have to start in 2 weeks. Negotiating my way out of my obligatory 1 month notice period, I started there at the very beginning of 2013. I was 47. It's been a ball 8)

If you want it enough, it can be done. Whatever your background, whatever your situation. It can be frustrating, bad enough at times to sit and wonder why and what...but such is the nature of the beast.

Is it worth it? Only the individual can answer that. For me, yes it was. It still is.

If the above can be inspiration to some, then all is good. If it makes others think can I make those sort of sacrifices, that is also good. Just be sure it is what you want and then aim for the stars.

[worldoffe]

@ Andy

Thank you for sharing! It is impressive how u made it possible with your determination and passion for flying

[Mickey Kaye]

Andy R

Brilliant, simply brilliant.

A bit of inspiration for everybody.

Well done