What to do with your ATPL if airline flying is not for you?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What to do with your ATPL if airline flying is not for you?
Hey folks, I'm seeking to get some creative (not necessarily) advice here.
To start with, let me quickly introduce myself. Quite standart story i guess. Fell in love with aviation at, say, 5y.o., joined local flying club at 14 where flew with all available gliders (including competition ones) for 4 years and couple hundreds of hours, at 17 started my PPL flying and few years later got a fantastic opportunity to work as a glider and banner tow pilot logging couple hundreds of hours on old radial tail draggers PZL-104 Wilga and its big brother PZL-101 Gawron (oh gosh those things are wicked,LOVE them! ), got some experience in GA maintenance and sight seeing flights also.
Now i'm finishing my EASA ATPL Frozen (month or so is left) and found myself standing at a crossroad. Until now i was absolutely positive that my biggest ambitions were to fly for any local airline as FO,but now realised being too young (or just naive) to sign a couple years contract to fly 6 days per week for a domestic airline redeeming type rating cost. I guess we all become pilots not to just sell our souls to domestic airlines and fly the same route for decades.
But what the other options are? What i supposed to do if i want to travel the world for a couple years getting some adventures flying? Ok,ok, i know the options, bush flying in Alaska or Africa,glider towing in New Zealand,flying seaplanes in Maldives, sight seeing flying over Grand Canyon and so on... That would be more than perfect of course. BUT! Are those opportunities real? Considering I have EASA license,EU citizenship, around 400 SEP hours,IR,MEP, no connections abroad and a HUGE willingness to fly? Oh,and i mean flying not for food and beer,but for decent money, that would be enough to pay ATPL training debts and buy some food
Big thanks in advance!
To start with, let me quickly introduce myself. Quite standart story i guess. Fell in love with aviation at, say, 5y.o., joined local flying club at 14 where flew with all available gliders (including competition ones) for 4 years and couple hundreds of hours, at 17 started my PPL flying and few years later got a fantastic opportunity to work as a glider and banner tow pilot logging couple hundreds of hours on old radial tail draggers PZL-104 Wilga and its big brother PZL-101 Gawron (oh gosh those things are wicked,LOVE them! ), got some experience in GA maintenance and sight seeing flights also.
Now i'm finishing my EASA ATPL Frozen (month or so is left) and found myself standing at a crossroad. Until now i was absolutely positive that my biggest ambitions were to fly for any local airline as FO,but now realised being too young (or just naive) to sign a couple years contract to fly 6 days per week for a domestic airline redeeming type rating cost. I guess we all become pilots not to just sell our souls to domestic airlines and fly the same route for decades.
But what the other options are? What i supposed to do if i want to travel the world for a couple years getting some adventures flying? Ok,ok, i know the options, bush flying in Alaska or Africa,glider towing in New Zealand,flying seaplanes in Maldives, sight seeing flying over Grand Canyon and so on... That would be more than perfect of course. BUT! Are those opportunities real? Considering I have EASA license,EU citizenship, around 400 SEP hours,IR,MEP, no connections abroad and a HUGE willingness to fly? Oh,and i mean flying not for food and beer,but for decent money, that would be enough to pay ATPL training debts and buy some food
Big thanks in advance!
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: praha
Age: 45
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahiii, you have selected the wrong job. If you want to make decent money being a pilot... Uhm, you should change a bit your target in your life...
It is not like "Cath me, if you can...". Pan am is gone !
It is not like "Cath me, if you can...". Pan am is gone !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont expect to get paid like 747 captain at Pan Am, and money isn't the target at all. The target is experience. By decent pay i meant enough money to live abroad and slowly pay atpl debt, i guess the pay for that kind of flying usually dont exceed ~ 2000 eur/month around the world,which is ok even living in Europe,not mention Africa for example. Maybe someone could reveal what pay pilots can really expect for these kinds of flying?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, lets clear up the termanology (sorry, but this really bugs me). You will never have an ATPL without flying for an airline in a multi crew aircraft - the clue is in the name Airline Transport Pilot Licence. What you are training for and will have is an EASA CPL.
With your background, and if you still have passion, I would pursue instructing. This can be very rewarding, and a lot of people are able to do it alongside another (proper) job and make ends meet.
The other thing is that you seem to have written off airline flying, have you actually had much exposure to a real world day to day commercial flight deck? It's a lot of fun, great banter, amazing views, and basically being paid to sit back, relax and drink coffee. I honestly can't imagine a better job, it really is a dream come true, so perhaps you could find away to find the passion you once had for it.
I still instruct and glide in my spare time, so have the absolute best of both worlds.
With your background, and if you still have passion, I would pursue instructing. This can be very rewarding, and a lot of people are able to do it alongside another (proper) job and make ends meet.
The other thing is that you seem to have written off airline flying, have you actually had much exposure to a real world day to day commercial flight deck? It's a lot of fun, great banter, amazing views, and basically being paid to sit back, relax and drink coffee. I honestly can't imagine a better job, it really is a dream come true, so perhaps you could find away to find the passion you once had for it.
I still instruct and glide in my spare time, so have the absolute best of both worlds.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Short answer - No.
There are tens of thousands pilots, who are willing to do it for free/for food.
Do you really think someone gonna pay you 2000-3000$ to do the same job?
Just to complete the picture.
There are 2100 cadet application for Ryanair. That means, only in Europe, more then 2000 low-hour pilots willing to pay 30.000€, accept all the condition, (low pay, move to a random country in Europe), just to have a chance to fly.
There are pilots, willing to sign for FlyDubai scheme. Pay 25000€ euro for TR, to MAYBE get just a job-interview with them! Just an interview, not a job.
So, back to you. Do you really think, with "no experience", someone in US will bother making greed card for you (spending a lot of time and money), then pay you 2000$... oooooor, just take 1 local, who will fly for food?
There are tens of thousands pilots, who are willing to do it for free/for food.
Do you really think someone gonna pay you 2000-3000$ to do the same job?
Just to complete the picture.
There are 2100 cadet application for Ryanair. That means, only in Europe, more then 2000 low-hour pilots willing to pay 30.000€, accept all the condition, (low pay, move to a random country in Europe), just to have a chance to fly.
There are pilots, willing to sign for FlyDubai scheme. Pay 25000€ euro for TR, to MAYBE get just a job-interview with them! Just an interview, not a job.
So, back to you. Do you really think, with "no experience", someone in US will bother making greed card for you (spending a lot of time and money), then pay you 2000$... oooooor, just take 1 local, who will fly for food?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for replies!
RTN11, yeah, sorry for terminology, i meant CPL with ATPL theory.
Lucky you!
Instructing would be a good option too, but is it possible to find CFI job outside EU having EASA CPL and CFI?
I haven't written off airline flying, and it still IS my goal, but with current situation with airline jobs, you need to have "plan B". Moreover,i dont have money for TR,so i cant expect normal job offers.
cefey Ok ok,it's all clear with airline jobs,but is it really THAT bad with non-airline segment? They may have local pilots who will fly for food in US.. But maybe than an Africa (or some other region that doesnt make 100+ redundant pilots/day) may be an option? Or then again, pilots are flying there for an ability to be filmed for Discovery Channel shows?
RTN11, yeah, sorry for terminology, i meant CPL with ATPL theory.
I still instruct and glide in my spare time, so have the absolute best of both worlds.
Instructing would be a good option too, but is it possible to find CFI job outside EU having EASA CPL and CFI?
I haven't written off airline flying, and it still IS my goal, but with current situation with airline jobs, you need to have "plan B". Moreover,i dont have money for TR,so i cant expect normal job offers.
cefey Ok ok,it's all clear with airline jobs,but is it really THAT bad with non-airline segment? They may have local pilots who will fly for food in US.. But maybe than an Africa (or some other region that doesnt make 100+ redundant pilots/day) may be an option? Or then again, pilots are flying there for an ability to be filmed for Discovery Channel shows?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in a CB
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't necessarily agree that you can't find a paying job flying smaller aircraft. If you are lucky and get a place instructing, you can make 2000Eur per month in Europe. Of course, being in the right place at the right time and proving yourself is important. As for the US - now since they don't accept guys without 1500hrs into the airlines, I am sure that instructing, bush flying, etc positions are pretty much filled by locals having no other choice. So you could theoretically get in there, but first secure yourself a green card not expecting their help And if you want to go to Africa, you need to go and knock the doors, + now they want you to have some hours and type ratings as well...
Have you considered business flying as well? Sure, the pay can be bad, roster tiring, but you can have some pretty fun flying to new destinations every day And it's all about getting into the left seat - then you will be able to eat more than bread and water, for sure.
As for the airline flying - sure it can be tiring and you will work quite a bit, but then there come duty time limitations and you can find yourself with weeks of holiday, if you're lucky, with travel benefits too! I'm almost 21, will start flying commercially on next Thursday and, even though the first week's duty plan seems super busy, I can't be more excited about it.
And if you want to go to Africa, you need to go and knock the doors, + now they want you to have some hours and type ratings as well...Have you considered business flying as well? Sure, the pay can be bad, roster tiring, but you can have some pretty fun flying to new destinations every day
And it's all about getting into the left seat - then you will be able to eat more than bread and water, for sure.As for the airline flying - sure it can be tiring and you will work quite a bit, but then there come duty time limitations and you can find yourself with weeks of holiday, if you're lucky, with travel benefits too! I'm almost 21, will start flying commercially on next Thursday and, even though the first week's duty plan seems super busy, I can't be more excited about it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sirijus, as for bussiness flying, i dont think it's easier to get those jobs than an airline ones, it could be very nice alternative though.
Good luck on your first airline flights!
Good luck on your first airline flights!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Having only skimmed your first option, please excuse if I have missed some finer details. You have some tailwheel and radial engine experience?
Good, that'll make you a bit more interesting to ag ops and float ops.
If you can crack a job on a turboprop, even if it's for a regional, do that.
Get those pesky hours out of the way and do the ATPL LST and then consider your options.
Bizjets require hours and experience (usually). By all means start having a chat to them now but usually, the operators won't look at you until you have a few thousand hours. Vital if you want to go LHS.
As for Africa? You might be lucky with your time. New Zealand and Australia will require visas. That's your toughest hurdle. Maldives want a couple of thousand hours plus some float time.
Good luck.
Good, that'll make you a bit more interesting to ag ops and float ops.
If you can crack a job on a turboprop, even if it's for a regional, do that.
Get those pesky hours out of the way and do the ATPL LST and then consider your options.
Bizjets require hours and experience (usually). By all means start having a chat to them now but usually, the operators won't look at you until you have a few thousand hours. Vital if you want to go LHS.
As for Africa? You might be lucky with your time. New Zealand and Australia will require visas. That's your toughest hurdle. Maldives want a couple of thousand hours plus some float time.
Good luck.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: ...
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To cefey
I'm not strongly conviced that fly 10-12days per month and earning 5000-6000euro per month, with a minimum of 15 days off, in a base like gran canaria is so a bad deal...
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fulminn,
Which Airline do you fly for then? Only Few options.
Norwegian, Ryan Air and Binter. Which one is it?
I know Spanish companies dont pay the best in general. Also outside the aviation Market. I used to be golfteacher at Gran Canaria. My Salary wasnt as great as I am used to in my homecountry. But life is really great there. I have to admit that. Lived in beautiful place called Arguineguin, Lomados.
But if you have suggestions about how to get that job, you would be more then welcome. I do speak also Spanish, and Spanglish :P . I would love to go back. Though I have less hours then TS. I did graduate last September.
PM's are always Welcome
. 
Which Airline do you fly for then? Only Few options.
Norwegian, Ryan Air and Binter. Which one is it?
I know Spanish companies dont pay the best in general. Also outside the aviation Market. I used to be golfteacher at Gran Canaria. My Salary wasnt as great as I am used to in my homecountry. But life is really great there. I have to admit that. Lived in beautiful place called Arguineguin, Lomados.
But if you have suggestions about how to get that job, you would be more then welcome. I do speak also Spanish, and Spanglish :P . I would love to go back. Though I have less hours then TS. I did graduate last September.
PM's are always Welcome
.
.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You make me curious then, on what you fly and which airline .
South is indeed touristic, that is why I lived in Arguineguin. That is totally NOT touristic in the south. Between Maspalomas and Puerto Rico.
.
.South is indeed touristic, that is why I lived in Arguineguin. That is totally NOT touristic in the south. Between Maspalomas and Puerto Rico.
.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Manchester
Age: 41
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Wilga plz,
It's very rare that I pop my head on here, but having read this thread I thought I my aswel join in. I think you should widen your scope with regards to job prospects and get out and try getting them. There are plenty of jobs if your willing to get out and find them. Thats what most of us had to do. Enjoy!!
It's very rare that I pop my head on here, but having read this thread I thought I my aswel join in. I think you should widen your scope with regards to job prospects and get out and try getting them. There are plenty of jobs if your willing to get out and find them. Thats what most of us had to do. Enjoy!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey there! Took some time to think it all over. Took advice given here and done some prospect on different jobs, different hour requirements. Didn't come to any final conclusion, but as for now, i understood that the wisest thing to do would be to get CFI and take some more time to think (and hopefully - a bit more hours to log). Probably, it would be better solution to try to slip into airline, but it's not for my budget ( tr,mcc,crm... ).
redsnail , thanks for advice and info! Yeah, getting some turboprop hours and ATPL would be the best scenario,but maybe later (see above). Do you really think there's a chance to get into AG ops with a few hundred hours radial? I thought they all switched to turboprops and require 1000+h experience, correct me if i'm wrong.
Also,what if i manage to get Aussie/NZ visa? Do you think there could be a chance(even a small one) to find smth there?
Kash360 Totally agree with you, sitting at home and waiting for a job to come to you isn't the best option and it's a frequent mistake of pilots searching for it The main question is: where to go? It's like waiting for a good hand in poker to go all in and hoping that fortune is on your side. When i'll decide which region is the best option to go, i'll definately go all in.
redsnail , thanks for advice and info! Yeah, getting some turboprop hours and ATPL would be the best scenario,but maybe later (see above). Do you really think there's a chance to get into AG ops with a few hundred hours radial? I thought they all switched to turboprops and require 1000+h experience, correct me if i'm wrong.
Also,what if i manage to get Aussie/NZ visa? Do you think there could be a chance(even a small one) to find smth there?
Kash360 Totally agree with you, sitting at home and waiting for a job to come to you isn't the best option and it's a frequent mistake of pilots searching for it
The main question is: where to go? It's like waiting for a good hand in poker to go all in and hoping that fortune is on your side. When i'll decide which region is the best option to go, i'll definately go all in.
