Interviews, jobs & sponsorshipDo ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools?
They are! Without reopening the whole integrated vs modular debate again which has been discussed ad nauseum, you WILL find this happens. BA is a prime example. I see nothing wrong with saying you need 85% passes in your exams, but why do you have to go to Oxford? What if I get 100% in my exams but go modular, am I less of a pilot to you?
I worry for people who have a genuine desire to fly, but (like I) cannot afford the astronomical cost of integrated training. How they are costed is beyond me, especially when you get more hours with modular flying!
If airlines operated fair recruitment schemes open to all who were qualified, and didn't setup cosy deals with flight schools then they'd be more opportunities for all. You only have the industry to blame.
*end rant*
In the meantime there's nothing wrong with taking an FI route, infact it's something i've recent given thought to. Sabena Flight Academy are doing a 2year contract out in Arizona (with free FI rating, if I read correctly) to teach people to fly, that's an opportunity i'd love to take, but i'm only part way through my ME!
Rock On PilotMike, you said what quite desperately needed to be said NOT about the industry but the new wave of wannabes that have brought their inconsistent and incompatable ideas with them. Both during training and pursuing that all ellusive first job.
In a similar situation to Desk Pilot myself. Over 35, qualified in 2005, and went back to my old job after qualifying to help pay the bills. Found hours hard to come by recently, and not in a position to follow the FI route yet due to finances, getting time off work, etc. Same reasons why I won’t go for a TR, but I am against buying the speculative TR anyway.
I went into this eyes wide open, didn’t expect a jet job to fall into my lap, indeed a TP job was preferable for the fun and experience of it all, but alas the only interview in the last 2+ years was for a jet operator which didn’t work out. I have seen all my friends get jobs recently, some knew people “on the inside”, some worked in the aviation environment, some paid for a speculative type rating. Well done to them I say.
But do I wallow in self pity ? Not at all, I get frustrated and annoyed at times, but no self pity. With hours hard to come by, companies like flybe who want 50 hours in the last 12 months don’t want my application, as are some of the larger airlines. One TP operator recently took great pleasure in verbally tearing me off a strip for having the audacity to phone them up about jobs as they are so busy and they don’t appreciate it. This despite me being told by someone who works for them that I need to speak to the right people as CV’s are a waste of time.
I am sure there are a few on here will reply with the usual, ‘if you want it enough’ and ‘nobody owes you a living’ etc, but I have never thought the latter, and I do want the former, but not at absolutely any price. As Desk Pilot alludes to, you have to live a bit and I do have other commitments besides flying. So I won’t be giving up the day job, selling the house, living in my car (assuming I haven’t sold that as well), and living on beans for the next few months while I do an FI and/or TR course. When the opportunity presents itself to do more I will take it with both hands, but until then I will try not to upset anyone else when I phone up about their recruitment plans.
If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.
From what I can make out wot you need to do is find ways of making your CV stand out a bit from the pile of them on a chief pilots desk.
I got my MCC about a month ago, with first time passes all round and around 250 hrs total time. I quickly realised that there are many in the same position with the same credentials and that my CV had absolutely nothing on it to distinguish it from anyone elses.
So I am trying to make small steps to distinguish it a bit. Ive been doing a bit of flying with a local aerial photographer, extra hours and "experience of flying commercially." Not a big deal, but makes a bit of a difference I think.
Applied the other day for the GAPAN jet orientation course scholarship which in the event that im lucky enough to get it will add a little bit more to my viability.
Also am on the verge of signing up for an instructors course, will add hours, improve my flying and shows a commitment to aviation. Could be good fun as well. Just a shame the pay is so shit.
I reckon that once these little things add up, eventually my CV will end up in a different pile to all the 250 hrs guys straight from flying school and I might be in with a chance of getting something im looking for. Its gonna be a pain in the arse having no money while it happens, i reckon im gonna need to get about 500 or so extra hours to move my self up a grade in the eyes of the recruiters, which will take a good year or so, but what else can I do?
I do sympathise with Vito Corleone however to a degree. I too was not prepared for the brick wall of unemployment that hit me after I finished training and I do feel a bit angry and frustrated at the situation I am in (its only been a month as well!). It is not asking much to be in with a chance of earning a decent wage from something youve worked so had at for the past year and a half is it? Sadly I can't see that happening for at least a year, life is very much gonna have to go on hold for a while. Part of the reason I feel a bit pissed off is that all through my training I was constantly being told that there were "loads of jobs out there" due to a boom in aviation and that it wouldn't take me long to get a job. Even my IR examiner said that he thought "the queue of people looking for jobs is not very long at the moment". Looks like I got the wrong end of the stick.
If I persist I WILL achieve my aims eventually, of that Im sure.
Oh yeh, to all the people who say that just sending out CVs will never get you a job, what else is there to do? Stalk a chief pilot and befriend him in a pub? Get a job as a cleaner in the Chief Pilots office? Blackmail him in some way? For those of us without a father or friend who works at an airline, sending out CVs and perhaps the odd phone call is our only means of making contact, I am intrigued to hear other ways of going about it.
Last edited by badboy raggamuffin : 26th July 2007 at 16:16.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,578
I think if you dig deep enough you'll find that this all-hallowed pilot/instructor shortage thing is often propaganda from the flight training organistations who are now well and truly versed in the art of hoodwinking starry eyed wannabes.
It is just a shame that the vast majority of people who obtain a CPL/IR only find this out through experiencing the 'system'.
I am happy instructing (never thought it would be the role for me!) and to be honest would happily do it for the foreseeable if the work and pay was more secure. As I see it, the only thing going for the airline gig these days is the dosh and depending on your employer that is now an area of contention too. Do you really consider yourself 'employed' as an airline pilot when you pay for your TR, uniform and food? Personally, I'd feel a sense of personal disappointment if I found myself down that route. Seems to me that it's more a case of buying yer way into a dream, something which (through experience) I am no longer willing to do. However, each to their own of course.....
If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.
Just the same as any industry, there is always a shortage of well qualified, experienced people. I'm sure that Tesco or Asda will tell you that there is a shortage of experienced financial directors, or purchasing directors, but that doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry is going to get a job on the till just because they've paid to learn how to stack shelves reasonably well.
Back to aviation, airlines are desperate for, in decreasing order:
- TR Examiners
- TR Instructors
- Type Rated training captains
- Type Rated captains
- non Type Rated captains with 3,000 jet hours
- Type Rated first officers with 1,000 multi crew hours
- non Type Rated first officers with 1,000 hours jet experience
- anybody with 500 multi crew hours on anything
- anybody with 1,000 instructing hours on anything
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is not whingeing
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is still breathing but whinges a lot!
Now, where do you fit in? What qualifications do you have? How can you make yourself look attractive to your future employers? What initiative have you shown to increase your hours / experience? You may think this is rather harsh, but it is a real world out there - experience and attitude is everything.
Coming here to sound off about the mere £10k return on a £6k FI investment won't impress anybody. Going and doing it for 3 years just might.
I am a 29 year old average guy, loved everything about flying from the age of 5/6. Was average at school 10 GCSE (C grades all bar one which was a B) . Decided against going to Uni, whether this was the right choice I will never know. Tried all the sponsorship schemes going but with no luck ( all but one wanted a degree). Took a job at 18 working offshore, saved enough cash very quickly to pay for my PPL passed it in 23 days start to finish June 1997 at Sibson near Peterborough. Spent a year working hard to save some cash to hour build in the states, West Air in Las Vegas, spent 3 months building 200hrs. Came back saved some more cash then did my ATPL theory in 2000 with Four Forces in London, second JAR course what an experience, Four forces goes Bankrupt and I lost £4000 which I had on account. ( Career Development loan which had to be paid directly to the training provider) lesson learnt DON'T pay up front. Big Big thanks to Stuart Smith who helped me to finish the written exams at no extra cost (he was a ground school instructor at Four Forces and subsequently set up CATS at cranfield after Four Forces folded). Went away licked my wounds and saved some more of that aviation friendly stuff called "money". BANG 911 occurs and I thought all my aviation aspirations were over! A year passed and I couldn't leave it alone so I did my Cpl at Tayside Perth, Di Heather-Hayes your a legend. Great flying in Scoland!! even in october. Tried loads of air taxi and aerial photography companies but still no joy! Away I went earnt some more cash so I could complete the IR at Bristol, ( my short list was HPG Birmingham, Bristol, Multi-flight and Raven Air, all very good). Completed in six weeks, thankyou Rowan Irvine! found a job flying Yiphee!!! Aerial photograhy based out of Exeter for the summer 2004, probably the worst summer bar this one, only gained another 130hrs, but still hours are hours. Kept applying to the air lines nothing heard back not even a no. Kept current through 2005 whilst applying for jobs built up my multi time, ever hopeful for an Air Taxi Job Still nothing. Made up a list of operators in the uk and drove to every single one- CV in hand, took me 6 days and 2000 miles From Exeter to Aberdeen. Most of them I couldn't get past the Frumpy receptionist, still at least I did manage to hand deliver some to the right HR person. 400hrs (inc 110 multi) though isn't regarded as enough!! It was time for a re-think, the feed back I did get from most operators was they would look at my CV once I had a lot more hours or a Type rating with hours on type. It fell to two choices FI or do what I promised myself I would never do - buy a type rating. I don't have rich parents who can pay for everything, I had been working extremeley hard to pay for all my own flying. So what did I do? I made a very calculated decision to buy a 737 type rating and 100hrs on type with Bond Aviation Solutions. Passed the type rating last June 2006 in Six weeks start to LST, ground school was a bit hit and miss no structure, but the sim sessions were second to none (due to the fact most instructors are ex BA captains)! Sent out my CV again but as expected Type rating with no hours is next to useless so still no job, waited over a year for line training with Bond which still has not materialised ( there is a very good thread on here about Bond Aviation Solutions and peoples bad experiences so I won't go into it). I am currently in Morocco with Eagle Jet about to start 300hrs line training, fingers crossed this will lead to a job.
Has it been worth yes! would I do it again YES, what have I learnt?
Do your research first and for most.
DON'T pay up front.
Don't wait for the job to come to you, be proactive!
Don't financially stretch your self as I have I am £30+K in debt now and growing every day ( this has been mostly thanks to the incompetence at Bond Aviation though, I was set to complete debt free)
I will re-post once I get my break hopefully soon!
P.S I was and am willing to fly sheds and piston planes and did not set out to jump straight into a jet, it's just a case that I have never caught a break in flying - the 737 is used more than any other commercial plane for the cost of the Type rateing. My dream job is flying for FRA!! I love flying
even if you find a job, you wont make enough to live or have a decent life.
Most guys I have met, are not really happy about their situation.
only some few who didn't pay their position and can still afford to be on strike (airfrance pilots by exemple)
1000$ for a flight instructor
2000$ for an airline pilot.
over 2500$ for a cashier in a fast food.
don't really expect more unless you join KLM, AA, Airfrance,BA
If you are new in this business, stay away from aviation and enjoy life by making a normal job.
this industry has changed a lot these last 10 years.
I must say some people’s attitude on this thread beggar’s belief. The airlines do not owe you anything
I am in the same position as most of you, I finished all my licences in May and have been sending out CV’s to all in sundry, with no joy, however unlike most “wannabes” I have substantial aviation experience. In 16 years in the Navy I flew nearly 4000 hrs in Seaking helicopters over 2000 of which were as Aircraft Captain and the last 5 years were spent flying Search And Rescue aircraft.
I do not expect to be treated any differently because of this, in fact I believe I am at a slight disadvantage due to my age, so rather than winging here is what I have done:
- Got an FI rating, it doesn’t pay much but where else are you going to get the experience.
- Applied to many GA type flying (fisheries protection, Photo recce work)
- Looked abroad
- Applied to all the TP operators
- Been realistic – I am not going to walk into a job with BA / Virgin no matter how much I wish it, maybe in 10 years but not yet.
Above all STOP WINGING, be proactive, get some B***s and grow up, there are far worse places to be.
Now as I have a wife and 2 children I am off to work “ would you like to go large???”
The gist of your post hits the mark, but you must remember that everyone has different personal circumstances. I suspect you have the advantage of an MOD pension which will no doubt compensate for your FI salary and makes it easier to build experience. There are alot of young guys on the forum who have no career to fall back on, huge debts and no income. Am sure many of them would jump at an FI course if the numbers stack up. Sometimes they need some encouragement!
But it is 'dog eat dog' and people should enter training with their eyes wide open.
My travel have just announced that 100 pilots will soon be laid off. 100 typerated, experienced captains and first officers. That puts us lot 100 places further back in the long queue for a job then.
Terrorist maniacs seem intent on causing some kind of atrocity at uk airport or aircraft, it is only a matter of time before some kind of disaster happens and the industry is hit in the bollocks in a similar way to 9-11.
In short, things do not look good.
Any wannabe who is thinking of going down this road to nowhere should read "Flaps up no lights" post and then see if they still fancy it. What a mug, a bit like me. I am amazed this guy remains so positive dispite having had his life ruined by his quest to fly for a living.
A number of people have criticised my attitude on this thread, saying that with my attitude I do not deserve to get a job. Pilot Mike, you do not know me, you do not know who I am. How dare you say that I am not fit to fly for an airline.
As I said before, if I could go back two years and no get into this situation in the first place then I would. The only thing that is keeping me looking for a job is that I am not going to let the 40k I have spent go to waste. If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again.
Last edited by Vito Corleone : 27th July 2007 at 13:57.
Boo hoo, welcome to the world of being a wannabe, surely you didn't go into this with your eyes shut? if you did then you are a bigger fool than we thought. I still don't understand why people look on the investment needed to obtain a fATPL as something that they can "recoup" once they start flying, if you couldn't afford to loose the money, i.e. not get a job at the end of it then you shouldn't have invested it in the first place. The situation is far better now than it was after 9/11 yet you still took the risk knowing that the potential was there to never get a job.
The reason alot of people are taking your thread with a little contempt is because alot are in your position, and there are alot who are far worse off than you, yet you come on here whining about it instead of concentrating your efforts into keeping positive and proactive, 99% of wannabes in your position are not whinging about it, they are getting on with it in the hope that it will happen.
Thomas Cook are getting rid of 100 pilots? so what, they will be sucked up into the industry almost unnoticed, when Easy & Ryan start recruitng heavily again they will want hundreds of pilots, and this is not considering the requirements of carriers such as flybe etc.
If you want a success story then you are looking at one, I left school with GCSEs, I have no degree or A levels, I am an older wannabe at 34, yet I landed my first airline job after being out of training 4 months, I have 320hrs, am I lucky? hell yeah, but trust me when I say that if I can do it then anyone can. Don't be so bloody negative, you are dragging everyone else down with you
I can imagine that some of the attitudes on here are a shock after your career in the RAF but remember; most of the guys in the wannabee forums are in debt, or preparing to go into debt, of around £60,000 (on top of whatever mortgage they may have) to aquire the same training that you received from HRH for free.
When they're faced with returning to previous careers and eating humble pie in order to repay their debts - saving another £5000 for an FI rating (with only a low salary to repay £600 p/m debts to look fwd to) is enough to break some people.
Vito,
"If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again."
Based on that admission, my advice to you is to "stop the rot". If that's how you feel then it appears (I don't know you either - just making assumptions here) that your heart is no longer in the industry and maybe you should go for a higher paid regular job and begin chipping away at that debt. Once you leave career aviation you might start to feel less animosity and maybe return to pleasure flying one day.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination and hard work make the difference." -- Calvin Coolidge
Jeez Vito you still don't get it do you, about 50 people have told you the way out of your predicament, would it help if I came round your house and bashed you repeatedly in the face with a big sledgehammer that had "SHUT UP WITH THE WHINGING, GET POSITIVE AND GO INSTRUCTING" written on it in glowing 20 foot high letters of flame?
Why should you care about what happens at MYT anyway, as you have morbidly delighted in pointing out already right at the start of this thread, you ain't rich or well connected enough to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a job there this decade. And who knows what the industry will look like in 5 or 10 years time, you're in it way too deep to start freaking out about that kind of thing now. So what are you proposing to do about it exactly, coming on here and bitching and moaning isn't exactly going to put any hours in your logbook is it now.
Your famous namesake in the movie rocked up in New York with nothing but the clothes he stood in, got a job as a delivery boy in an olive oil shop, pulled his finger out and made the connections at the very bottom end of his industry and it eventually took him about 50 years to work his way through the ranks of little mafia gofer-boy to hit man to Godfather. What do you think he would say to you, if you were a mafia wannabe who went crying to him because you wanted to join the mafia but only if you could get straight in as a big gang-boss-man and wouldn't accept anything less?
In fact, blimey, if I had any concrete overshoes I'd put them on you myself and take you and hang you over the edge of the brooklyn bridge just to motivate you into shutting up and getting on with it. See you don't know how lucky you are in this industry do you, capice?
(PS 100 MYT pilots, woop de doo, that represents about 20% of Easyjet's projected hiring for next year, it won't even make a dent in the shortfall at most other carriers. From where I sit, the industry has never looked so good for at least 20 years as it does right now so the rest of you reading, don't let this guy get you down too much.)
Should also point out that 100 pilots is the very WORST CASE - it could be subsequently lower than that. And what makes you think every single one will be taken by an airline? Some will take the generous redundancy package and disappear into the sunset, some will go to the Middle East (where most wanabee's can't get jobs anyway) so I wouldn't worry too much.
Take a moment to think laterally about things, I shat myself when MyTravel announced the job losses but it's swings and roundabouts. Today job cuts, tomorrow massive aircraft order. Someone has to crew 235 new Dreamliners after all!
). Took a job at 18 working offshore, saved enough cash very quickly to pay for my PPL passed it in 23 days start to finish June 1997 at Sibson near Peterborough. Spent a year working hard to save some cash to hour build in the states, West Air in Las Vegas, spent 3 months building 200hrs. Came back saved some more cash then did my ATPL theory in 2000 with Four Forces in London, second JAR course what an experience, Four forces goes Bankrupt and I lost £4000 which I had on account. ( Career Development loan which had to be paid directly to the training provider) lesson learnt DON'T pay up front. Big Big thanks to Stuart Smith who helped me to finish the written exams at no extra cost (he was a ground school instructor at Four Forces and subsequently set up CATS at cranfield after Four Forces folded). Went away licked my wounds and saved some more of that aviation friendly stuff called "money". BANG 911 occurs and I thought all my aviation aspirations were over!
even in october. Tried loads of air taxi and aerial photography companies but still no joy! Away I went earnt some more cash so I could complete the IR at Bristol, ( my short list was HPG Birmingham, Bristol, Multi-flight and Raven Air, all very good). Completed in six weeks, thankyou Rowan Irvine! found a job flying Yiphee!!! Aerial photograhy based out of Exeter for the summer 2004, probably the worst summer bar this one, only gained another 130hrs, but still hours are hours. Kept applying to the air lines nothing heard back not even a no. 
Kept current through 2005 whilst applying for jobs built up my multi time, ever hopeful for an Air Taxi Job Still nothing. Made up a list of operators in the uk and drove to every single one- CV in hand, took me 6 days and 2000 miles From Exeter to Aberdeen. Most of them I couldn't get past the Frumpy
receptionist, still at least I did manage to hand deliver some to the right HR person. 400hrs (inc 110 multi) though isn't regarded as enough!! It was time for a re-think, the feed back I did get from most operators was they would look at my CV once I had a lot more hours or a Type rating with hours on type. It fell to two choices FI or do what I promised myself I would never do - buy a type rating
. I don't have rich parents who can pay for everything, I had been working extremeley hard to pay for all my own flying. So what did I do? I made a very calculated decision to buy a 737 type rating and 100hrs on type with Bond Aviation Solutions. Passed the type rating last June 2006 in Six weeks start to LST, ground school was a bit hit and miss no structure, but the sim sessions were second to none (due to the fact most instructors are ex BA captains)! Sent out my CV again but as expected Type rating with no hours is next to useless so still no job, waited over a year for line training with Bond which still has not materialised ( there is a very good thread on here about Bond Aviation Solutions and peoples
bad experiences so I won't go into it). I am currently in Morocco with Eagle Jet about to start 300hrs line training, fingers crossed this will lead to a job.
, I was set to complete debt free)
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