eurocopter

We are considering the Schweizer 300CB in place of the R22 as a school training aircraft. Apart from being slightly slower and a marked nose down attitude in cruise flight, does anyone have any good or bad comments about them?

Hughes500

I use 300C's, much better than R22 ( oh God are we going to open up the R22 debate again).Advantages of the 300; it is more stable, more power, more forgiving and just better, I reckon on 400 /500 hours a year it is cheaper to run although it uses 11 gal fuel an hour;3 more than an R22. As for speed , mine criuse at 80 / 85 kt pulling 23 inches. I hear the CB has less guts but most of the above applies although everyone who has one reckon the C is better but CB streets ahead of R22.

The H300 was designed as a training helicopter
What was the R22 designed to do ??

FlyAny

I have a few hundred hours in a Hughes 269A, predecessor to the 300. It was the first helicopter I flew and, I have instructed commercial and instrument it. I am told they are very close in handling and, with that as my qualification I will tell you that it is a great A/C to fly. Stable, as little helicopters go, reliable, and in autorotation you will land on the spot you hold 3 inches above the toes of your boots in the descent, every time. I have not flown another helicopter you can maneuver to a precise landing point in autorotation as easily. The landing gear design lends itself to both absorbing minor abuse and ground resonance. But, ground resonance is pretty easily avoidable by maintaining and preflighting the struts and blade dampers. Can't tell you what care and feeding will cost you.

[This message has been edited by FlyAny (edited 03 November 2000).]

hover lover

Passing along experience of Dave Adams, 5000 hours, employed in electronic news gathering, also a heli CFI..
Goods Points R-22
- relatively modern simple design
- allows pilot high degree of precision
- very reliable, frequently needs no attention at 100 hour check
Good Points Schweizer
- stable helicopter and smooth ride
- good visibility + roomy cabin for two
- lots of power at sea level

Bad Points R-22
- hard starting in cold weather
- real tight fit in cabin for pax + baggage
Bad Points Schweizer
- older design
- needs more maintenance, 100 hour check often turns up needed repairs
Adams says "cannot give a definite answer, each has its good points. This is a list of my personal likes + dislikes for each model"

Hone22

Hi all

It's funny how questions pop up in yer head and slip away if not acted on straight away, here's a couple i hope the collective wisdom out there can help with.

1.The H300 manual says during start up no more than 2000ERPM or a overspeed condition and short shaft strip required.

How come during auto I was taught to stabilise the ERPM at 2500. Is this not overspeeding the engine?

2. Why are they such maintanance hogs?

Compare to the R22, big difference, big $$ DOC difference.

3.Great machine for local stuff but why the 45 degree nose down in the cruise (good thing the 4 point harness stops you falling out the bubble).

4.Why are they all (pigs) so different to start. Once again look at the R22, pretty much all start exactly the same turn key bruuummmmmmmm.

5. Heard lots of different opinions re keeping RPM top green 3200, mid 3100 or bottom 3000.
I personally use top green for all max performance,limited pwr, confined areas. and cruise at mid green 3100. Anyone expand on this. I've just been told if you constantly use top green 3200 the engine blows up (untrue in my experience to date).

Don't get me wrong, i have a very soft spot for the ol girl, great for autos (apart from the vertical glide path) good sized cabin (2up) good grunt (once again look at the R22) and it's like a real helicopter when you climb up into it (once again look at the R22).

Thanks for all correct answers and remember this was posted by a pilot not an english teacher .

edited to add Q5

fly Safe
Hone

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: Hone22 ]

Hughes500

To answer your questions
1. Engine is still driving freewheel / clutch arrangement rather than just spinning with nothing to drive. The damage on start up occurs due to the massive accleration from 0 to 1600rpm plus. The same engine in a plank drives a prop at 2700 with no damage
2.They are not maintenance hogs, i would question your engineers. DOC's are cheaper in my experience with the exception of fuel.In the UK 300 is almost half of what an R22 is to insure. Plus you do not have a 2200 / 12 year rebuild !
3. remember the 269 series was built as a training helicopter for the US mil ( TH55). You are not interested in high cruising speed ( if you are take a 500D). However I have never worked out why some of my machines are quicker than others and have varying nose down attitudes at 80 kts.
4. Welcome to fuel injection. we pay the price for different starts against carb heat. All mine start with throttle fully open prime for 3 secs close throttle crack 1/4 inch and go. If engines is hot crack 1/2 inch and go.
5. Be kind to the engine, you can quite comfortably hover 2 up full fuel 15 degrees C at 2800rpm, yes you have to be careful. Pesonally I teach all my guys 3100rpm unless it is very hot, tight confined area or very windy for spot turns.
6. They are a very good and reliable machine. Difficult to compare to a 22. One was designed as personal transport the other as a training helicopter. One is considerably better than the other at training and they are about the same in the other role - work it out for yourself ( where does the 3rd person sit in an R22 ?)

The Nr Fairy

Two questions, then H500.

1. Is the fuel cost the ONLY reason for the £35 wet rate difference between the R22 and the H300 at FAST ?

2. In your opinion, which is the better trainer, and why ?

Hughes500

Nr Fairey

Fast have used my 300's I have charged them more than the R22 owners charge them.

As for which is better ask any one who has flown both types as a trg machine. The 300 has
a) more power
b) more stable in the hover ( trim it and you can remove hand from cylic for up to 5 seconds)
c) Bigger inside (R22 advantage if your student is female and attractive)
d) Has a proper cylic
e) Has a sensible trimmer
f) You can look behind you
g) better eol
h) Does not lose rrpm so quickly
i) Built like a brick outhouse
j) Much better C of g if you are very big
k) More powerful tailrotor
l) No carb heat
m) Holds more fuel
n) Better visibility
o) Better C of g when instuctor gets out for first time
p) Outclimbs an R22
q) Its not a Robinson product therefore safer
r) Doesn't have 18degree offset in the rotor head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ppruners - sorry if I have got Lu going again
s) Can't think of anymore

Disadvantages

a) Usually more expensive to hire
b) Uses more fuel 10litre / hr more
c) slower - about 80 kt cruise
d) ridiculous oil filler

OK the R22 Brigade lets hear your side

Up & Away

So ....it would appear that there is nothing that can be said against the H269/S300??

Heard that there is a small company start up with S300 in the Yorks /Lincs area any info??

topilot or to pprune

diesel76

The Excellent Ground Resonance feature on the 269 series is very good......

Hughes500

Deathranger

if you got ground resonance in a 269 the maintenance guys and pilot should be shot. Normally caused by an oleo being knackered which is very obvious on a walk round. Can also be caused by damper problems.

diesel76

I haven't ever flown nor been in a 269

I have seen them disintigrate though...
Yes it is usually dodgy maintenance though

Here in New Zealand maintenance can be done on helicopters by anyone who has a set of tools or a arc welder..

Hone22

Hi all,

Further on this line of enquiry, most of the fixed wing Lames spoken too all go on about the engine high RPM 3200 being an ask for eventual trouble.

Having some brief time in the 300cb, the FM tells ya the donk is producing 180hp at 2700RPM.

This is a figure more in line with the fixed wing applications for the 360 Lycoming. The R22 Beta 2 also runs the 360 at about 2700RPM for a lower rated HP output.

IF the question of engine reliabillity is bound by how hard you work it, Would the H300C be a more reliable A/C if the donk spun slower, Would the HP produced still be in line with load capacity (I know the CB is a little short on oomph when required).

Is the power band in the 360 such that it has to spin at 3200 for the FM stated performance of the H300C.

Questions, questions, questions

Cheers & fly Safe

Hone

(Written by a pilot not english teacher).

t'aint natural

Hughes 500:

Nice try. No cigar.
I bought a helicopter last year, after long and careful appraisal. I looked at the Schweizer and the R22, among others. I looked at actual maintenance records, actual utility figures, I looked at performance, handling, safety, and last but not least I looked at money. I bought the R22. Why? Because nothing else even came close, on any criterion with the exception of office space. I just got a 50-hr bill this month… it’s £216 plus VAT. My insurance is £272 a month for a machine that does about 400hr a year, on a school flightline. My fuel bill is £23 an hour. The 300 just isn’t in the hunt, and anybody who has to stoop to “it isn’t a Robinson” to justify running a 300 must know exactly what I mean.

Hughes500

tain't natural

Hate to say this my last 50 hour on a 300 was £ 150
Just had a 300 hour inspection done £ 850

Last annual was £ 3200, this on an aircraft that flies 400 to 500 hrs a year

A question for you how much is your 12year 2200 hour rebuild going to cost you plus the down time ?

Yes agree there is no competition on fuel, I use about £ 35 hr
Resale value on 300's I think you will find is a tad better.

As long as your're happy not a problem really

Have a safe one
PS the 500 is much better than both put together!!!

Vfrpilotpb

H5,
Would the Hughes be a good replacement for the R22 or are they in such different fields , one with the two rotor blades and the other with three, so therfore totally different to handle and fly, Ie the Neg G area and Auto's, and finally in your opinion, what would be the conversion time for this more docile craft?
My Regards
PeterB

Magumba

I have 1300 hrs in the 300C, good heliopter for the size. Remember flying 3 up front a few times, almost had the collective between my legs. Flew lots of Santa flights too, one where the belts would not fit around the jolly old man. Flew him anyway, can't keep Santa from the kids.
Starting was always a bug with the 300. I think it's due to the 'shower of sparks' booster for the mags used during starting. I flew an Enstrom F28C with a IO-360 engine that was a dream to start. I always sweated starting the 300.

Had a few overspeeds on start over the years too. The tach needle wips around so bad on start that it left you scratching your head as to whether you had an overspeed or not.

I think it flys so nose low because it has no mast tilt and not much horizonal tail area. The canted fin also caused it to pitch and yaw in turbulance.

As to RPM Keystone had 5 of them in 1974 used for Cable Patrol, all flying was below 3oo ft. Flight manual in those days said use 3200 below 500 ft so that is what we did. In turbulance the thing would yaw so much the RPM would be 3000 to 3400 inspite of your best efforts to control it. Huges finally gave us permission to fly at 3000 and use 3200 for take off and landing only. When we were using 3200 all the time we had several engine problems because of valves bouncing off the seat at RPM above 3200.
An engineer at Lycoming said the cam dropped the valve too fast if you got above 3200, valve would bounce off the seat. Didn't take too much of that to cause a problem. Later they changed to cam.

I also delivered a new 300, a police version that was the 'quiet' version it allowed cruise at 2500 RPM. Felt strange flying with that slow a rotor RPM.

Keystone flew the **** out of those 300. 25-30 hrs a week on 4 helicopters for 9 years. After the first few years they ran and ran.

t'aint natural

Hughes500:
If I may make a constructive contribution - na na na na na.
I put aside a healthy £25 an hour for my rebuild, which covers everything including postage and packing. The rebuild gives me a zero-timed machine. No "on-condition" spending. How much is a blade for a 300?
Better resale value? If you can sell them. Why does the R22 outsell the 300 twenty to one? You tell me.
Agreed, the 500 is a barrel of laughs. The 600N is good, too, and you can get more than two midgets in the back.

Hughes500

tain't natural
blade is £ 7500 at current exchange rates with a life of 5500hrs
As long as you are happy who cares, incidently I have never had a problem selling 300's
With a 500 I never sit in the back, but at 6ft 2 I would prefer to sit in the back and have a 135kt cruise then lumber round in a 206 at just over 100kt.
Ever flown a 500 ? Come down to the West Country and I will convert you on to one.

Hughes500

Hone22
I have just had my engine overhauled (300C)
She had flown 1556hrs and 1820 on the datcon.
As a training heli the engine takes quite a lot of stick from students.
I teach my students to keep the engine at about3000 to 3100rpm unless you are very heavy or you want more tailrotor authority when there is more than about 20kts of wind.
The machine will quite happily hover at 2800rpm but the tail response is slow.
My best advice for the engine is to change the oil every 25 hours, very easy to do yourself. This will ensure hours of fun and reliability.

Have a safe one