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Old 7th Mar 2009, 17:09   #1 (permalink)
 
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Replacing Cessna seatbelts - GA

One of the results of Part M is that our seatbelts need replacing. As Cessna give a ten year life to the seatbelts and the seatbelts in our aircraft are original (35 years old) they have to be changed before our maintenance organisation will issue an ARC.

Has anyone come across this and is there a cheaper way of complying without replacing with new.
The belts are standard static ones with a shoulder strap on both front seats.

If the seatbelts are re-webbed, who could check them and issue a EASA Form 1 so they can be used.
The companies who do the re-webbing don't issue 8130's, only a Certificate of Conformity and new TSO tags for a further 10 years.
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Old 8th Mar 2009, 05:06   #2 (permalink)
 
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I have had belts rewebbed in the past and it is a lot cheaper, but it depends on the make, Pacific Scientific can be rewebbed by them in the UK see

Pacific Scientific

Amsafe not sure about but try

Amsafe Aviation (UK) - U.K.

You don't tell me the aircraft model or make BTW so I am a bit limited in what I can help you with..

Part M to be honest just sucks....... It is so full of holes you could drive a legal horse and cart through them........ define manufacturer... Cessna I believe gives the Aerobat belts a 5 year life, but the makers of the belts if I am right do not.

Cessna as the Aircraft manufacturer tell you you must do the valve guide inspections in accordance with Lycomings SB, now if it is a later guide that tells you to extend it to 1000 Hrs, but the EASA AD tells you to ignore it.....
But on the other hand EASA part M tells you you must go with the Aircraft manufacturers recommendation...... Bit of a chicken and egg situation......


Cessna on a 152 give a life of 5 years on the brake hoses.. but if you do a really critical search you will find a newsletter issued in 1985 telling you if it has the teflon hoses installed they are on condition and they will update the manual presently...........................24 years later and I am still awaiting the manual being corrected............ such is Cessna!

Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Mar 2009 at 05:24.
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Old 8th Mar 2009, 12:10   #3 (permalink)
 
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Thanks Nutloose and those who have sent PM's. The aircraft is a Cessna.

One of the issues is that the Cessna Maintenance Manual does not allow for overhaul, only replaced, but allows the belts to be rebuilt in accordance with FAR 42.3.
Still wondering what the difference is between overhauled and rebuilt as you can replace them with rebuilt items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessna Manual
NOTE: The terms overhaul and replacement as used within this section are defined as
follows:
Overhaul - Item may be overhauled as defined in FAR 43.2 or it can be replaced.
Replacement - Item must be replaced with a new item or a serviceable item that is
within its service life and time limits or has been rebuilt as defined in FAR 43.2.

Last edited by papa oscar; 4th Nov 2009 at 23:32.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 10:45   #4 (permalink)
 
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I would be interested where they found that information, I went through the Cessna Current manual today and bar the 50 Hr inspection it has no special requirements to replace the belts at 10 years, and the servicing section also simply calls for inspection, if there is any wear etc then yes, but a quick look I could not find any calender period on them, not trying to step on toes, just I have them on my approvals so was checking to see if I was missing something.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 15:52   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I would be interested where they found that information
They found it on page 2-25 of the current Cessna 177B manual, its in a similar location of all the current Cessna SE service manuals. Page was ammended with temp. revision 4 dated 7 Oct 2002. It states a 10 years replacement life with no option to overhaul.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 16:05   #6 (permalink)
 
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Restart vs Legacy models

The 10 year life statement from Cessna is definately in the MM for the 'new-build' 172R/S models. Don't know if it is in the MM for the Legacy models, as we don't look after any old 'un's. However, nutloose can't find it so maybe it only affects the Restart models. Anyone else here got access to up-to-date Legacy Maintenance Manuals? Is papa oscar about to get ripped off?

Just had to replace a set in one of our locally based 'S' models. The CAA wouldn't budge as the manufacturer (albeit of the airframe) gives a life of 10 years. The second 'S' is coming in in a couple of weeks, and it is also 10 years old. The full set of belts from Cessna is F***ing expensive, and as far as Cessna is concerned, it doesn't matter if they have never been used. After 10 years they are required to be replaced. 5-11-00 Component Time Limits refers.

NOTE: This limitation only refers to Cessna-supplied units. Refer to my comment on BAS units below.

The CAA are unwilling to use any descretion, issue an exemption or make any decision, thereby ensuring they will not be in a potentially exposed position (i.e. they will not permit any form of common sense to attract perceived American-style litigation).

Therefore, once again, the 'just-in-case' mentality makes light aircraft ownership and operation unnecessarily, and prohibitally, expensive.

Digressing slightly, I quote from EASA themselves (NPA 2008-07 refers):

"On the available evidence, the heavier regulation of the regulated sector does not appear to have resulted in any safety benefit".

There is a firm in the US who market an STC for four-point harness' for Cessna's. IIRC, they are BAS (Google is your friend) It may well be cheaper to get one of their kits and have it installed. And, no, it shouldn't be an EASA Major Mod through an horrifically expensive Part 21 design organisation as BAS belts have been fitted to numerous G reg Cessna's over the years. Hence, EASA Minor Mod only due to precedence.

Hope the above is of some help.

camlobe
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 16:50   #7 (permalink)
 
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Definately in alot of the current SE Cessna service manuals I have (Most of 100/200 series). Same section gives lives for trim tab actuator (3 years/1000 hour OVERHAUL), vac filter (500 hours), Vac hoses (10 years), pitot and static system hoses (10 years), Engine hoses (10 years for teflon, 5 for rubber), Air filter (500 hours/36 months), Engine control cables (at TBO), Vac pump coupling (6 years or vac pump change), dry vac pump (500 hours), standby vac pump (500 hours). Passenger, pilot and co-pilot restraint assemblies - 10 years.

BAS belts already approved, see bullshit castles website for AAN's (including generic one issued by the CAA).

Last edited by Granite City Flyer; 10th Mar 2009 at 21:22.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 17:06   #8 (permalink)
 
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I have the full ATP Cessna Single Library on DVD it is current BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!!!! and the page which you are referring to and I know about already shows this, as you can see its change 4 BUT NO LIFE LIMIT SHOWN........ now it covers the 177 series, so though you check either the A or B it brings up the same manual, also in the seat belt servicing section, it too gives no life limit. The Manual IS giving 7/ 2000 as the last ammended date WTF are we paying for!!!!!!!



Quote:
Definately in all of the current SE Cessna service manuals I have (Most of 100/200 series). Same section gives lives for trim tab actuator (3 years/1000 hour OVERHAUL), vac filter (500 hours), Vac hoses (10 years), pitot and static system hoses (10 years), Engine hoses (10 years for teflon, 5 for rubber), Air filter (500 hours/36 months), Engine control cables (at TBO), Vac pump coupling (6 years or vac pump change), dry vac pump (500 hours), standby vac pump (500 hours). Passenger, pilot and co-pilot restraint assemblies - 10 years.
#

Don't forget on the likes of a 152 changing all the rubber brake hoses every 5 years and EVERY seal in the brake system, that means stripping the lot down!

Tempest Vac pumps do not need the 500 Hr life I believe as it has an inspection window for wear.

Additionally if its called up in the manual as items like tappets are, then it's 100 hrs NOT 150 hrs as before..

The only way around this is to write a maintainance schedule and get it approved, thought about calling mine CAA/LAMS/A/2007
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 17:19   #9 (permalink)
 
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The last ammendment I have for Cessna SE manuals is change 5 dated Jan 15 2008. The page you displayed is 1 revision behind. PM me your e-mail and I'll send you a scan of page 2-25 that has these time limits on.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 17:48   #10 (permalink)
 
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 18:25   #11 (permalink)
 
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Yep, I've got the same manuals from Avantext.
Just waiting for a reply from the CAA regards rewebbing the belts.
In the USA they can have them rewebbed and a 'Certificate of Conformity' issued and everything is fine. In EASA land it appears to be different, so being in EASA has put me at a disadvantage - so what the f**k is the point of EASA when the country the aircraft is made and hold the Type Certificate accept different rules.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 18:45   #12 (permalink)
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Also in the nonsense category: How about small dents in the wing skins caused by hail? How would you convince a surveyor that the aircraft is airworthy with them? You and I know that the belts and wings are perfectly OK but how do you satisfy these requirements without vast expense?
If your Part G organisation is approved can they still do an ARC recommendation despite these minor problems? In the old days a licensed engineer could sign these things off - I think!
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 19:26   #13 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Also in the nonsense category: How about small dents in the wing skins caused by hail? How would you convince a surveyor that the aircraft is airworthy with them?
Your surveyor actually looks at the aeroplanes? What a terribly old fashioned and potentially troublesome way of doing business.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 20:51   #14 (permalink)
 
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I have just done an ARC renewal on a C177, as far as I could tell there was no life limit on the seat belts. There is on the C182, as we know it is 10 years, notified on a temporary revision. The C152 on the other hand, no lives on the seat belts I have checked the manual & the TR's.

On the 177 BTW the belts were in perfect condition & in a colour to match the interior, I bet you could not match those again.

The trouble with EASA & part M, If you ask me, they are trying to take away the engineers role of decision making. In the past, belts in good condition, leave them. Belts frayed change them. Simple.

Now they do not trust us to make our own decisions, if the book says change it, then change it. In the past the manufacturers lives were a recommendation not the law.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 21:15   #15 (permalink)
 
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Just looked in my manuals. A 1977 Cessna 150 has the 10 year life according to the service manual (page2-27 date 7 OCT 2002), the same part number harness is listed in the 152 IPC, but the 152 service manual has no life limit. Glad the harness knows what aircraft its fitted too, maybe that explains the cost!

However, all 3 of my current 177 manuals (68-78FG, 71-75RG and 76-78RG) have the 10 year life for the harness.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 01:05   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cessnarepairman
I have just done an ARC renewal on a C177, as far as I could tell there was no life limit on the seat belts. There is on the C182, as we know it is 10 years, notified on a temporary revision. The C152 on the other hand, no lives on the seat belts I have checked the manual & the TR's.
Best get it back in and change the belts!!!
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 06:12   #17 (permalink)
 
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It's in Poland now, It's their problem!
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 10:57   #18 (permalink)
 
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Just got my update from ATP and it is Still NOT in the manual
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Old 25th Apr 2009, 00:39   #19 (permalink)
 
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Good news. Managed to find a company who can rebuild the seatbelts and issue a 8130-3 at a very good price.
The belts have been done and are now back in the aircraft. All sorted.
If anyone needs any belts doing, drop me a PM.
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Old 5th May 2009, 14:08   #20 (permalink)
 
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hi papa oscar, I think I am about to be hit with the seat belt problem would greatly appreciate the name and details of the company you used they are for a 177a 1968 and I think are probably original any info would help Thanks ray quinn e mail address morsepoint@btconnect.com Thanks again
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