Let's make charter sales easier for everybody.
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Let's make charter sales easier for everybody.
Hello everybody,
I hope I'm writing this on the right forum, otherwise, please excuse me.
I'm a software engineer that has been working in the industry for several years now. I have built all kinds of tools to help pilots, operators and sales people to make their daily work faster and more efficiently.
I have spent also quite an amount of time integrating software with Avinode, which I always felt it was one of the weakest points in the sales process, with a lot of room for improvement or if I may say it, revolution. Unfortunately, they are almost a monopoly, and their steps are small.
I really believe that with the right technology, some effort, and a bit of help, its possible to build a very serious competitor to Avinode.
I would really love to hear your thoughts on this idea.
Thanks for reading!
I hope I'm writing this on the right forum, otherwise, please excuse me.
I'm a software engineer that has been working in the industry for several years now. I have built all kinds of tools to help pilots, operators and sales people to make their daily work faster and more efficiently.
I have spent also quite an amount of time integrating software with Avinode, which I always felt it was one of the weakest points in the sales process, with a lot of room for improvement or if I may say it, revolution. Unfortunately, they are almost a monopoly, and their steps are small.
I really believe that with the right technology, some effort, and a bit of help, its possible to build a very serious competitor to Avinode.
I would really love to hear your thoughts on this idea.
Thanks for reading!
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That is no diferent than the other 99% of the websites ofering empty legs. Which Avinode is already way better than those.
I'm talking about going one step further than that. have you ever used https://www.hipmunk.com? that the kind of revolution that I'm looking foward, but applied to business aviation :-)
I'm talking about going one step further than that. have you ever used https://www.hipmunk.com? that the kind of revolution that I'm looking foward, but applied to business aviation :-)
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Hi Marc, just responded to another thread and remembered this from a couple of years ago. Have you seen Stratajet (http://www.stratajet.com) recently? I think it's definitely the "hipmunk" experience you were looking for. Real-time and bookable!
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WE are really at a technological and philosophical change point for the industry.
Smart phones, big data, fast processing, high speed/high data rate mobile comms, and the willingness to spend significant sums of money via a mobile device are now reality. At least over a significant swathe of the modernised world.
That wasn't the case 5 years ago. It is now.
There are a wave of new ideas, some good, some not so good. It isn't that the good will survive and not so good die away....it doesn't work like that
(example: Philips 2000 video never took hold....best system, and yet VHS (rubbish) did.)
In 5 years time it'll be interesting to look back to this post and see what is ruling the roost.
Stratajet isn't crazy by any means and do seem to be applying the new technology and capabilities in the right way. Others less so (JetSmarter.....lots of hype, but the model looks a wee too much ponzi-like for some I heard at EBACE, I refrain from comment).
Fly Victor and others all trying to create a space.....and all with positives and negatives.
But for sure those that don't embrace and start to understand the opportunities of this new era, and those that aren't open minded enough to see that the previous market 'knowledge' is going to change a little, will be the ones suffering eventually.
Smart phones, big data, fast processing, high speed/high data rate mobile comms, and the willingness to spend significant sums of money via a mobile device are now reality. At least over a significant swathe of the modernised world.
That wasn't the case 5 years ago. It is now.
There are a wave of new ideas, some good, some not so good. It isn't that the good will survive and not so good die away....it doesn't work like that
(example: Philips 2000 video never took hold....best system, and yet VHS (rubbish) did.)
In 5 years time it'll be interesting to look back to this post and see what is ruling the roost.
Stratajet isn't crazy by any means and do seem to be applying the new technology and capabilities in the right way. Others less so (JetSmarter.....lots of hype, but the model looks a wee too much ponzi-like for some I heard at EBACE, I refrain from comment).
Fly Victor and others all trying to create a space.....and all with positives and negatives.
But for sure those that don't embrace and start to understand the opportunities of this new era, and those that aren't open minded enough to see that the previous market 'knowledge' is going to change a little, will be the ones suffering eventually.
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Empty legs seems to be the only way us mere mortals could ever afford to charter and to be honest I struggle to understand the appeal.
As far as I can tell, I would have to scour the web and if I'm lucky, there may be an empty leg come up around the date that I want going to the place that I want, however it is unlikely I will get a return and you are at the mercy of the individual that made the original booking so could be left high and dry if they cancel their trip on the day for example.
Also planning my trip around the flight defeats the object of charter, the flight should fit in with my needs... So until I can afford to charter myself, it's British airways for me... Unless I've missed something glaringly obvious???
As far as I can tell, I would have to scour the web and if I'm lucky, there may be an empty leg come up around the date that I want going to the place that I want, however it is unlikely I will get a return and you are at the mercy of the individual that made the original booking so could be left high and dry if they cancel their trip on the day for example.
Also planning my trip around the flight defeats the object of charter, the flight should fit in with my needs... So until I can afford to charter myself, it's British airways for me... Unless I've missed something glaringly obvious???
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As far as I can tell, I would have to scour the web and if I'm lucky, there may be an empty leg come up around the date that I want going to the place that I want, however it is unlikely I will get a return and you are at the mercy of the individual that made the original booking so could be left high and dry if they cancel their trip on the day for example.
Also planning my trip around the flight defeats the object of charter, the flight should fit in with my needs... So until I can afford to charter myself, it's British airways for me... Unless I've missed something glaringly obvious???
Also planning my trip around the flight defeats the object of charter, the flight should fit in with my needs... So until I can afford to charter myself, it's British airways for me... Unless I've missed something glaringly obvious???
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300% correct!!!
Saw tons of new entries in the last decades, and saw as much also leaving the Business.
A very much used Expression nowadays is "revolutionary idea".
The only real Revolution in Commercial opperated Charter Business have been very light jets such as Mustangs, eclipse (RIP) or Phenom 100. These aircraft were the only true change as they increased the users/Clients. In other words - more understandable or all of us mortals - the CAKE HAS INCREASED!!!!
All current and past "revolutionary ideas" are only parasits trying to get a slice of the existing cake. NOWAY of increase!!! All these new Entries Smarties, Stratospheric guys, lunatic ententies, Victorians and their new names are all - at the end of the story - OLD School: BROKERS no more no less, let us name them what their real Name is.
No reinvention of the wheel and wake up and dont believe that an APP or a program or whatsoever Shi....t, can solve the complex procedure of a charter booking. There will always be the need of a physical Person - Forget Outsourcing to India (ask the Banking industry with their exprience) at the end before giving the final GO to the pilots!!!!!!
It all appears to me very funny - even better than Cabaret (dont need to pay a ticket for entry to the show)how market participants get fished by these Revolutions and revolutionists!!!
It would be more usefull if certain CEO's really understand the product they are treating (Private Jet Charter) and do not mix it up with the low cost Aviation and the corresponing "copy and paste" attitude they are trying to revolutionise the industry!
I hereby declare the Bazar open - looking forward for tons and tons of replies!!!!!
Saw tons of new entries in the last decades, and saw as much also leaving the Business.
A very much used Expression nowadays is "revolutionary idea".
The only real Revolution in Commercial opperated Charter Business have been very light jets such as Mustangs, eclipse (RIP) or Phenom 100. These aircraft were the only true change as they increased the users/Clients. In other words - more understandable or all of us mortals - the CAKE HAS INCREASED!!!!
All current and past "revolutionary ideas" are only parasits trying to get a slice of the existing cake. NOWAY of increase!!! All these new Entries Smarties, Stratospheric guys, lunatic ententies, Victorians and their new names are all - at the end of the story - OLD School: BROKERS no more no less, let us name them what their real Name is.
No reinvention of the wheel and wake up and dont believe that an APP or a program or whatsoever Shi....t, can solve the complex procedure of a charter booking. There will always be the need of a physical Person - Forget Outsourcing to India (ask the Banking industry with their exprience) at the end before giving the final GO to the pilots!!!!!!
It all appears to me very funny - even better than Cabaret (dont need to pay a ticket for entry to the show)how market participants get fished by these Revolutions and revolutionists!!!
It would be more usefull if certain CEO's really understand the product they are treating (Private Jet Charter) and do not mix it up with the low cost Aviation and the corresponing "copy and paste" attitude they are trying to revolutionise the industry!
I hereby declare the Bazar open - looking forward for tons and tons of replies!!!!!
Last edited by zolfen; 13th Jun 2016 at 20:02.
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Brad - you're bang on.
Zolfen - I agree with some of what you have to say but you are wrong on one important point. It is possible for a computer to do all the work around a booking. Our computers have done about £1M of bookings like this in the last 16 days...
Private jets have two things going for them: Firstly they are flexible around the person where as with any kind of scheduled experience you need to be flexible around the aircraft. Second is in the name - Private. This is why there has never been a successful "seat sharing" company. They essentially take a private jet and turn it into a scheduled airline only a much more expensive one. This is where I agree with Zolfen; CEO's of "online private jet companies" that have never even been in one should not be allowed anywhere near the industry.
Empty legs: I believe that the Stratajet approach is the only one that is going to work. It retains the aircraft around the person approach but also offers substantial discounts with efficiency savings. Let me explain how it works...
Let us assume on Monday next week an operator has scheduled an empty flight from Madrid to Luton at 1300Hrs. By the way, with 2107 GA airfields in Europe this gives a total number of airfield pairs of 4,437,432 so the odds of finding one on the exact route at the exact time is basically zero.
Now, let's also assume the aircraft is next needed for a trip from Luton on Wednesday next week.
A new customer goes online and wants to fly from Barcelona to Manchester on Tuesday at 1300. Obviously a large part of this needs to be flown anyway but the question is how much of it is empty and how much is a new flight.
This is where the Stratajet Adaptive Empty Leg system kicks in. Essentially like this:
1) Work out the cost of the empty leg including all airport fees etc.
2) Work out the cost of Madrid to Barcelona to Manchester to Luton.
3) Work out increased landing, handling, parking, APD, Noise, Airways, TNC etc charges. (A Unique engine to Stratajet which 14 full time staff keep up to date)
4) Subtract the empty cost from the new cost and that's your base.
5) Put a much higher profit margin on for the operator.
6) Present to Customer in less than 10 seconds.
If you go to Stratajet.com and do a search these results are the ones at the top with the little Stratajet logo. I've just done a search for London to Genova on 7/7/16 and got some - give it a go. Booking is then done completely online including payment just like Skyscanner or any other travel website. Every now and then something goes wrong, we had two bookings this weekend which were impossible because someone had failed to update their schedule that the aircraft was in Maintenance. It wasn't a drama though, we just used another operator. These events are very much the exception not the rule and my client service team jump in and square it away so we always have happy customers.
Oh and final point. I've been flying for 20 years so yeah, I understand the product alright...
Zolfen - I agree with some of what you have to say but you are wrong on one important point. It is possible for a computer to do all the work around a booking. Our computers have done about £1M of bookings like this in the last 16 days...
Private jets have two things going for them: Firstly they are flexible around the person where as with any kind of scheduled experience you need to be flexible around the aircraft. Second is in the name - Private. This is why there has never been a successful "seat sharing" company. They essentially take a private jet and turn it into a scheduled airline only a much more expensive one. This is where I agree with Zolfen; CEO's of "online private jet companies" that have never even been in one should not be allowed anywhere near the industry.
Empty legs: I believe that the Stratajet approach is the only one that is going to work. It retains the aircraft around the person approach but also offers substantial discounts with efficiency savings. Let me explain how it works...
Let us assume on Monday next week an operator has scheduled an empty flight from Madrid to Luton at 1300Hrs. By the way, with 2107 GA airfields in Europe this gives a total number of airfield pairs of 4,437,432 so the odds of finding one on the exact route at the exact time is basically zero.
Now, let's also assume the aircraft is next needed for a trip from Luton on Wednesday next week.
A new customer goes online and wants to fly from Barcelona to Manchester on Tuesday at 1300. Obviously a large part of this needs to be flown anyway but the question is how much of it is empty and how much is a new flight.
This is where the Stratajet Adaptive Empty Leg system kicks in. Essentially like this:
1) Work out the cost of the empty leg including all airport fees etc.
2) Work out the cost of Madrid to Barcelona to Manchester to Luton.
3) Work out increased landing, handling, parking, APD, Noise, Airways, TNC etc charges. (A Unique engine to Stratajet which 14 full time staff keep up to date)
4) Subtract the empty cost from the new cost and that's your base.
5) Put a much higher profit margin on for the operator.
6) Present to Customer in less than 10 seconds.
If you go to Stratajet.com and do a search these results are the ones at the top with the little Stratajet logo. I've just done a search for London to Genova on 7/7/16 and got some - give it a go. Booking is then done completely online including payment just like Skyscanner or any other travel website. Every now and then something goes wrong, we had two bookings this weekend which were impossible because someone had failed to update their schedule that the aircraft was in Maintenance. It wasn't a drama though, we just used another operator. These events are very much the exception not the rule and my client service team jump in and square it away so we always have happy customers.
Oh and final point. I've been flying for 20 years so yeah, I understand the product alright...
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Jonnyn, you should take a look at the article on empty legs in charter broker magazine. It would be great to get some feedback... This strata jet system sounds interesting, im assuming you work for them?
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And I still don't buy this sales BS of Stratajet and the likes but then I have been only been 20 years in this industry....
This is where a real broker and people make sense...
I hate brokers that have no added value
I hate online brokers like Stratajet even more
Booking is then done completely online including payment just like Skyscanner or any other travel website.
- Slot delays
- No slots
- Weather issues
- More pax
- Less pax
- Owner pulls the aircraft
- Owner changes his schedule
- etc
- etc
I hate brokers that have no added value
I hate online brokers like Stratajet even more
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Brad - I am familiar with the article and although the team here that contributed they felt that it was too much of a secret to explain the way it works at SJ to the press. I hope I don't get fired for posting it! Yes I work at Stratajet.
Global - I'm sorry you hate us but you'll be pleased to know that our customers love us. Firstly, there is no other online broker like Stratajet. Stratajet is alone in the world for giving real-time pricing no matter what marketing BS you read about the others. If you doubt it then please try and get a quote from any of the others and then try us.
Slots: We integrate wherever possible with the slot systems of airports. Take LSGG - if we cannot get a slot then the system automatically finds a nearby airfield. The next step on this system is to find another time close to the required one and inform the user. The exception here is that we can use the grass runway without a slot so any aircraft able to operate on it with the required pax and fuel loading can still get in. It's all automatic.
Weather: Not even the best broker in the world can change the weather although many think they can. We actually had a trip out of Samedan where we were able to deal with the Wx problem before it became one. The system works by automatically scanning the METARs and TAFs for an airfield where we have a trip booked. When the forecast shows Visibility or cloudbase goes close to the IFR minima for a particular aircraft class it flags it up. Then we take a look and try and come up with a solution - different airfield or different time. With the Samedan trip we called the client and explained the situation and the client elected to leave a few hours earlier before the weather closed in.
More/Less pax: Real-time pricing and compliance baby! Just not an issue, client pays the difference if it is possible to take more people with runway and aircraft limitations.
Owner pulls the aircraft: We deal with it just like you do - although the real-time pricing from loads of operators means it takes us about a minute to find a replacement.
Etc. Please feel free to keep them coming.
Dislaimer:
I have no problem with brokers as a rule. Stratajet is trying to bring new customers into the market not just fight over the current ones who, as you know, are diminishing.
Global - I'm sorry you hate us but you'll be pleased to know that our customers love us. Firstly, there is no other online broker like Stratajet. Stratajet is alone in the world for giving real-time pricing no matter what marketing BS you read about the others. If you doubt it then please try and get a quote from any of the others and then try us.
Slots: We integrate wherever possible with the slot systems of airports. Take LSGG - if we cannot get a slot then the system automatically finds a nearby airfield. The next step on this system is to find another time close to the required one and inform the user. The exception here is that we can use the grass runway without a slot so any aircraft able to operate on it with the required pax and fuel loading can still get in. It's all automatic.
Weather: Not even the best broker in the world can change the weather although many think they can. We actually had a trip out of Samedan where we were able to deal with the Wx problem before it became one. The system works by automatically scanning the METARs and TAFs for an airfield where we have a trip booked. When the forecast shows Visibility or cloudbase goes close to the IFR minima for a particular aircraft class it flags it up. Then we take a look and try and come up with a solution - different airfield or different time. With the Samedan trip we called the client and explained the situation and the client elected to leave a few hours earlier before the weather closed in.
More/Less pax: Real-time pricing and compliance baby! Just not an issue, client pays the difference if it is possible to take more people with runway and aircraft limitations.
Owner pulls the aircraft: We deal with it just like you do - although the real-time pricing from loads of operators means it takes us about a minute to find a replacement.
Etc. Please feel free to keep them coming.
Dislaimer:
I have no problem with brokers as a rule. Stratajet is trying to bring new customers into the market not just fight over the current ones who, as you know, are diminishing.
Last edited by jonnyn; 17th Jun 2016 at 10:58.
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Hahahaha, if only I were as simple as using divine intervention. We had to do it the old fashioned way of six years of late nights, wrong turns and painful algorithms. What we didn't do though is wimp out and just have a website where people could send us a quote request that we would get operators to manually process. There are no fish being multiplied we just have found a whole load of new ones.
I do like the fish analogy, I'm going to crack on with it. The way I see things is that the market at the moment comes from a pond with 0.001% of the fish population in it and it's being fished by lots of different people. All the fish in this pond are big and none are small - which is good since you can't waste time with small fish when you have a fishing rod. Some new guys have turned up with carbon fibre rods but they are still doing the same sort of fishing.
The Stratajet proposition is to head to the big lake which feeds the pond which has the other 99.999% of the fish population. Not with a fishing rod but instead with a powerboat and a net. The vast majority of the fish in this lake will simply slip through the net because they are too small but we'll collect the big ones that don't. We now know that 1.25% of the total fish population are big enough to be caught in our net and not just the 0.001% in the pond.
This isn't theory by the way; over 30% of our customers have never flown privately before they come to us and we're just warming up. The other weekend we produced 1.4M private jet quotes without a single operator being bothered until the booking had been paid for according to the operators pricing structure. Only a tiny fraction of these turned into bookings but who cares? Computers are doing all the hard work and they don't need a salary nor do they get bored. The integrations with the likes of Skyscanner and Kayak will push prices for private jets to people searching for groups traveling by business class and thus we will be getting new fish that simply never made it to the small pond. The attitude that all people who can afford to fly privately do, is simply wrong. We know this because we have spoken to them.
So this is why it is fine to say you "hate Stratajet" although it seems odd considering that plenty of the fish we catch in the lake will end up in the pond where you can get at them. But what you cannot say is that you "hate online brokers like Stratajet" since we are unique given no-one else has a powerboat and a net.
This was a journey we started long before most of these other companies even put together a simple website and told their marketing departments that they were an online business. My local corner shop has a website but it is not an online business... neither are they.
One final thing, please don't think that because you can go online to book an aircraft that is the only way you can. We have telephones too and most of the people who are booking with us for the first time will call before handing over the money. Subsequent bookings tend to be online or via the app. That's great though, they get the best of both worlds.
I do like the fish analogy, I'm going to crack on with it. The way I see things is that the market at the moment comes from a pond with 0.001% of the fish population in it and it's being fished by lots of different people. All the fish in this pond are big and none are small - which is good since you can't waste time with small fish when you have a fishing rod. Some new guys have turned up with carbon fibre rods but they are still doing the same sort of fishing.
The Stratajet proposition is to head to the big lake which feeds the pond which has the other 99.999% of the fish population. Not with a fishing rod but instead with a powerboat and a net. The vast majority of the fish in this lake will simply slip through the net because they are too small but we'll collect the big ones that don't. We now know that 1.25% of the total fish population are big enough to be caught in our net and not just the 0.001% in the pond.
This isn't theory by the way; over 30% of our customers have never flown privately before they come to us and we're just warming up. The other weekend we produced 1.4M private jet quotes without a single operator being bothered until the booking had been paid for according to the operators pricing structure. Only a tiny fraction of these turned into bookings but who cares? Computers are doing all the hard work and they don't need a salary nor do they get bored. The integrations with the likes of Skyscanner and Kayak will push prices for private jets to people searching for groups traveling by business class and thus we will be getting new fish that simply never made it to the small pond. The attitude that all people who can afford to fly privately do, is simply wrong. We know this because we have spoken to them.
So this is why it is fine to say you "hate Stratajet" although it seems odd considering that plenty of the fish we catch in the lake will end up in the pond where you can get at them. But what you cannot say is that you "hate online brokers like Stratajet" since we are unique given no-one else has a powerboat and a net.
This was a journey we started long before most of these other companies even put together a simple website and told their marketing departments that they were an online business. My local corner shop has a website but it is not an online business... neither are they.
One final thing, please don't think that because you can go online to book an aircraft that is the only way you can. We have telephones too and most of the people who are booking with us for the first time will call before handing over the money. Subsequent bookings tend to be online or via the app. That's great though, they get the best of both worlds.
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@ global_global I think you miss the whole point. What companies like Stratajet are doing (and no I don't work for them) is finally automate a system handled by brokers, who take dozens of man hours to produce the exact same figure Stratajet does in seconds, how is that a bad thing? In my opinion the ability to finally sell empty legs productively using stratajet's model is unique. Your right, before brokers have said "well it's empty from X-Y, that's it", no one else has said "yeah sure, but we will position it from X-A then B-Y, the difference is £xxx". As far as I am aware no one else does this, including avinode, which is a rubbish system and the figure quoted is never near the actual price
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Avinode model is dying
Hello everybody,
I hope I'm writing this on the right forum, otherwise, please excuse me.
I'm a software engineer that has been working in the industry for several years now. I have built all kinds of tools to help pilots, operators and sales people to make their daily work faster and more efficiently.
I have spent also quite an amount of time integrating software with Avinode, which I always felt it was one of the weakest points in the sales process, with a lot of room for improvement or if I may say it, revolution. Unfortunately, they are almost a monopoly, and their steps are small.
I really believe that with the right technology, some effort, and a bit of help, its possible to build a very serious competitor to Avinode.
I would really love to hear your thoughts on this idea.
Thanks for reading!
I hope I'm writing this on the right forum, otherwise, please excuse me.
I'm a software engineer that has been working in the industry for several years now. I have built all kinds of tools to help pilots, operators and sales people to make their daily work faster and more efficiently.
I have spent also quite an amount of time integrating software with Avinode, which I always felt it was one of the weakest points in the sales process, with a lot of room for improvement or if I may say it, revolution. Unfortunately, they are almost a monopoly, and their steps are small.
I really believe that with the right technology, some effort, and a bit of help, its possible to build a very serious competitor to Avinode.
I would really love to hear your thoughts on this idea.
Thanks for reading!
Avinode's major flaw is that it limits bookings and access to pertinent information simply because many operators and brokers do not use the platform - too expensive. The industry wants a platform in which every pertinent player can participate and this will only happen with a free service. It's 2016, there is no reason why the charter industry has to accept this limited platform that's not all inclusive. Avinode will not survive the eventual move towards a free service from a major competitor, and users of Avinide should start seeking out what comes after their eventual collapse. My bet is that by 2019 Avinode will be irrelevant.
