Pilot shortage
lemel
I'm suggesting you do something, anything, other than talk up the the illusion of the Great White Hope of a pilot shortage. Because it's not going to ever be an issue in Australia as wealthy expatriates would come home in droves and airline management knows the lifestyle attraction with a reduction in wage pressure they can play on.
Would expatriate Australian pilots return home and fly for 50% less than the current Virgin or Jetstar pilots now? I doubt it. But that should hit home. That's the stain the initial cadre of Virgin pilots left on the industry- and throw in paid endorsements. Those guys should never be forgotten and I'm guessing they're in the top 30 or so on the seniority list. They are bogan aviators.
Australian pilots blaming seniority for their woes is an appalling cop-out and has wiped the lessons of history.
thefeatheredone
Nice try.
I'm suggesting you do something, anything, other than talk up the the illusion of the Great White Hope of a pilot shortage. Because it's not going to ever be an issue in Australia as wealthy expatriates would come home in droves and airline management knows the lifestyle attraction with a reduction in wage pressure they can play on.
Would expatriate Australian pilots return home and fly for 50% less than the current Virgin or Jetstar pilots now? I doubt it. But that should hit home. That's the stain the initial cadre of Virgin pilots left on the industry- and throw in paid endorsements. Those guys should never be forgotten and I'm guessing they're in the top 30 or so on the seniority list. They are bogan aviators.
Australian pilots blaming seniority for their woes is an appalling cop-out and has wiped the lessons of history.
thefeatheredone
Nice try.
Quote:
The seniority argument is so short sighted and perpetuated by those that benefit from it.
And the argument to remove it is perpetuated by those who would benefit from it.
Both NZ and AUS are desirable places to live... so much so, that many have halved their expat salaries just to move home.
Without Seniority, Commands would go to those who have held them overseas or Management stooges with more st on their noses than in my kids diaper.
Yea, it's a bit of a hit to the ego for those who took quick Commands in the ME/Asia to start at the bottom back home... but then, you knew that when leaving. Perhaps the grass wasn't greener? I for one am happy waiting in line rather than racing off to the 3rd world chasing quick progression.
And lets be honest here... no Airlines that I'm aware of, in NZ or AUS, promote solely on seniority. If you can't chin the bar, you don't get promoted.
ElZilcho is online now Report Post Quick reply to this message
The seniority argument is so short sighted and perpetuated by those that benefit from it.
And the argument to remove it is perpetuated by those who would benefit from it.
Both NZ and AUS are desirable places to live... so much so, that many have halved their expat salaries just to move home.
Without Seniority, Commands would go to those who have held them overseas or Management stooges with more st on their noses than in my kids diaper.
Yea, it's a bit of a hit to the ego for those who took quick Commands in the ME/Asia to start at the bottom back home... but then, you knew that when leaving. Perhaps the grass wasn't greener? I for one am happy waiting in line rather than racing off to the 3rd world chasing quick progression.
And lets be honest here... no Airlines that I'm aware of, in NZ or AUS, promote solely on seniority. If you can't chin the bar, you don't get promoted.
ElZilcho is online now Report Post Quick reply to this message
People are having trouble connecting the dots so to get an idea of how seniority can protect well paid, professional aviators, I propose this question.
What would have the initial pilots who came to Virgin Blue accepted if a direct entry command was available at Qantas or Ansett 15 years ago? Pay for a training captain was beyond 200K. According to an ex-VB guy he was on 110k and he may have included his superannuation in that figure, and DTA and the soap and pad and pencils he pinched from the hotel and sold on ebay.
Have a think yoose guys. Actually, can some of the VB pilots here go and ask their senior pilots what their price was?
Would expatriate Australian pilots return home and fly for 50% less than the current Virgin or Jetstar pilots now? I doubt it..
Soooo all these expats are just a bunch of wingers then and have no real interest in living in Australia?
If Australian Airlines offered DE Commands even at 50% of current command salary you would be crashing your servers just trying to keep up with the response. Then that doesn't include all the non citizens with the right to work and abode in Australia. Not to mention everyone the Airline could sponser.
You see what has happened in Aviation in Australia is that the Airlines now view every role in isolation and not as a progression up the tree. They do the same with LAMEs too. So basically they will just go cap in hand to the government saying look there is noone with any command time in our airline we need to sponsor Captains from overseas who have command time.
It would decimate the Aviation Labour Market in this country for the next 20 odd years, by which time you would HAVE to employ expats as noone will be trying to be a pilot anymore.
So yes you are right removing Seniority would increase salaries......in about 2045
neville
No. The point I was making was that I don't think expatriates would undercut current Australian airline pilots as dramatically as the initial Virgin Blue pilots did. That original cadre of VB guys were a special bunch.
No. The point I was making was that I don't think expatriates would undercut current Australian airline pilots as dramatically as the initial Virgin Blue pilots did. That original cadre of VB guys were a special bunch.
Undercut how ? The company offers employment for x amount and you accept that or you don't. It's the company that set remuneration. The operation wasn't replacing an already existing operation, no picket line was crossed, and no ban was in effect. I am not sure who you think is currently in the top 30 senior positions at VA (VB has been gone almost 6 years) but in fact a good number there now came from Turboprop operations in Australia. A faint but distinct whiff of sour grapes here.
Undercut how ? The company offers employment for x amount and you accept that or you don't. It's the company that set remuneration. The operation wasn't replacing an already existing operation, no picket line was crossed, and no ban was in effect. I am not sure who you think is currently in the top 30 senior positions at VA (VB has been gone almost 6 years) but in fact a good number there now came from Turboprop operations in Australia. A faint but distinct whiff of sour grapes here.
Perhaps all is well now, you've taken 15 years of wage growth to get paid what what incumbent domestic and international pilots were paid in 2001.
I don't mind offending anybody here but a peasant low-cost attitude is not going to help anybody if there is a manifestation of a pilot shortage regionally. Pilots like morno feel 300,000 USD is a lot of money, it's just not for what you are liable for and the protections you will see if something goes wrong in a far away land.
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If there is one constant in aviation.
There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper than what you're currently doing it for.
Backstabbing is rife in this industry.
You only need look as far as the Qantas cabin crew to see what happens without some industrial protection. I've lost count of how many seperate awards that cover the one job. Each new one less attractive than the one before. Those on the initial A list think they're a protected species as the vastly inferior terms of their "colleagues" can't possibly affect their careers. Can it??? Feeling nice and cosy right up till the day the redundancy letter arrives.
I, for one, don't want to see this kind of cancer make its way into the pilot's awards. It's one thing to have other companies pay their pilots less, and for that then be a tool industrially to put downward pressure on you own pay packet. It's another thing entirely to have the cancer in your own ranks.
I've spent my first career in the military. No seniority system there. They would have you believe that promotion is merit based. Not true. The old adage was that the RAAF was like dope. The harder you suck, the higher you get.
The seniority system is far from perfect. The alternative is far worse.
There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper than what you're currently doing it for.
Backstabbing is rife in this industry.
You only need look as far as the Qantas cabin crew to see what happens without some industrial protection. I've lost count of how many seperate awards that cover the one job. Each new one less attractive than the one before. Those on the initial A list think they're a protected species as the vastly inferior terms of their "colleagues" can't possibly affect their careers. Can it??? Feeling nice and cosy right up till the day the redundancy letter arrives.
I, for one, don't want to see this kind of cancer make its way into the pilot's awards. It's one thing to have other companies pay their pilots less, and for that then be a tool industrially to put downward pressure on you own pay packet. It's another thing entirely to have the cancer in your own ranks.
I've spent my first career in the military. No seniority system there. They would have you believe that promotion is merit based. Not true. The old adage was that the RAAF was like dope. The harder you suck, the higher you get.
The seniority system is far from perfect. The alternative is far worse.
But what if you dont... aaah... inhale
So tell us Gnads, what are you earning?
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Why give the gratification?
Pilot conditions debate could go on forever, fact is what's done is done and you learn from history. Banging on about being a cashed up expat is a very shallow view on life.
I'd rather be happy and poor than rich and miserable.
No. The point I was making was that I don't think expatriates would undercut current Australian airline pilots as dramatically as the initial Virgin Blue pilots did. That original cadre of VB guys were a special bunch.
The difference about being an expat and living in Australia isn't money, it's all the things that you can't actually put a value on.
Straw Poll-recent conversations with around a dozen very experienced expats that I work with- to return to Aus 180k will spark interest, but 200 would be much more palatable. Having said that being an expat is a state of mind as much as anything else. The experiences you get, the exposure to the world at large, and the realisation of how naive most Australians are to the world (and how naive we were before we left the sheltered workshop) is in my opinion invaluable. The flip side is that a lot of people struggle with the changes/challenges-even more so if in a relationship and it works for one but not the other. Except for those on LWOP its not a 'try before you buy' experience thus there are risks not faced by remaining in the home country. It doesn't work for everyone, but if it works for you it will be the best decision you ever make. Caveat emptor!
Most guys would come home for 120k and then fight to increase the conditions. It's better to be on the inside hat in mouth, than throwing stones from the outside.
The difference about being an expat and living in Australia isn't money, it's all the things that you can't actually put a value on.
I would be bankrupted on 120K if I had to also pay tax. Good starter for an FO though.
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A standard IR play to circumvent contracts and indeed unity is to introduce different scales at each and successive EA 'negotiation'. Generally it will not affect the incumbents only those either new to company or new to fleet. Whilst there are several different contracts in Flight attendant ranks, often on the one aircraft it is myopic to suggest it is not the case at major airlines.
There is a pilot shortage, based purely on aging demographic, aided by IR policies to drive down terms and conditions, stagnate career paths (think Alliance at VAH, Cobham, Jetconnect and of course JQ at Qantas) and of course the cost (barrier to entry), the wages on offer and the return expected.!
The demographics at play affect all western economies. A result of population explosion following World War 2, this has been baked in for a long time now. Ever wonder whilst you in Australia keep seeing the pension age rise, the pressure on Australia's (and most western countries') welfare, hospital and respite care systems will grow as this demographic moves into retirement.
Pilots are a global commodity, there may be a penchant for some Ex-pat Australians to return home and 'undercut' (as implied in other posts) but organised labour have ignored the demographic tsunami , which to me is an epic failure.. The hastily convened 787 contract at Qantas, may prove a low water mark. No wonder Joyce claimed a 30% saving! As the market is global, movements to a new abode en-masse generates a shortage elsewhere.
https://skift.com/2016/06/30/even-as...ilot-shortage/
https://skift.com/2016/10/14/delta-c...raises-anyway/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...will-c-429621/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rlines-on-edge
American Airlines Combats Pilot Shortage (AAL) | Investopedia
Southwest Airlines pilots' pay to soar 30 percent by 2020 under newly approved contract | Southwest Airlines | Dallas News
To me it would appear that fact outweighs opinion. The reality is that globalisation works two-ways. Airlines love when they can't continually drive wedges between work groups, open endless green field operations, import foreigners (457 visa), but sadly they detest that globalisation works two ways and pilots can also arbitrage their skill set internationally.
Pilots are a global commodity and to suggest there is no shortage ignore the structural issues emerging in literally every western economy.
- Qantas has different pay scales on the 737
- Qantas has Jetconnect pilots doing previously Qantas flying on the 737
- The next EA will do the same as it did previously, a new scale for new fleet joiners (selling off the not yet born!)
- How may pay scales has CX got these days?
There is a pilot shortage, based purely on aging demographic, aided by IR policies to drive down terms and conditions, stagnate career paths (think Alliance at VAH, Cobham, Jetconnect and of course JQ at Qantas) and of course the cost (barrier to entry), the wages on offer and the return expected.!
The demographics at play affect all western economies. A result of population explosion following World War 2, this has been baked in for a long time now. Ever wonder whilst you in Australia keep seeing the pension age rise, the pressure on Australia's (and most western countries') welfare, hospital and respite care systems will grow as this demographic moves into retirement.
Pilots are a global commodity, there may be a penchant for some Ex-pat Australians to return home and 'undercut' (as implied in other posts) but organised labour have ignored the demographic tsunami , which to me is an epic failure.. The hastily convened 787 contract at Qantas, may prove a low water mark. No wonder Joyce claimed a 30% saving! As the market is global, movements to a new abode en-masse generates a shortage elsewhere.
- There remains the demand
- The shortage is across all western economies and affects all industries
- Birth rates have declined in all western economies in the last decade, meaning economies are not replacing their work forces with sufficient tax serfs!
- Certain carriers are now 'testing the market' offering new hires more $, whilst quietly keeping existing pilots on existing conditions.
- The supply of new pilots is insufficient by many forecast models to arrest the retirements expected (demographically)
https://skift.com/2016/06/30/even-as...ilot-shortage/
https://skift.com/2016/10/14/delta-c...raises-anyway/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...will-c-429621/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rlines-on-edge
American Airlines Combats Pilot Shortage (AAL) | Investopedia
Southwest Airlines pilots' pay to soar 30 percent by 2020 under newly approved contract | Southwest Airlines | Dallas News
To me it would appear that fact outweighs opinion. The reality is that globalisation works two-ways. Airlines love when they can't continually drive wedges between work groups, open endless green field operations, import foreigners (457 visa), but sadly they detest that globalisation works two ways and pilots can also arbitrage their skill set internationally.
Pilots are a global commodity and to suggest there is no shortage ignore the structural issues emerging in literally every western economy.
Expect 457's and cut price, fast track cadet schemes as none of these characters that run these places place any value on skill, experience and education whatsoever. They don't understand it, they haven't lived it, don't bother trying to explain it. We are just a number, they begrudgingly acknowledge our efforts whilst treating our profession with total contempt.
On the plus side, the people I fly with are some of the best people I've ever met and I wouldn't swap a 9 to 5 greasy pole job for a rated take off in a pink fit.
On the plus side, the people I fly with are some of the best people I've ever met and I wouldn't swap a 9 to 5 greasy pole job for a rated take off in a pink fit.