Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
'holic :
It is also worth mentioning that Protected Industrial Action does not necessarily mean strike! There are many other forms of protected industrial action that would be undertaken before a strike was declared. Fair Work Australia will determine if what AIPA has in mind is legal or not, and AIPA will advise its members accordingly, so that they all remain within the law.
'89 gets a mention in a few posts. I think it needs to be pointed out that if you take PIA, it is illegal for your employer to sack you.
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It is only $8M....
For those who were not in the Brisbane crew room last year "$8M is not very much in the big scheme of things"....Bruce Buchanan, CEO Jetstar.
Referring to the additional cost of having to retrofit aircraft seating, after his management team decided not to order reclining seats in the recent A320s so that a further three seats could be squeezed in to make it 180Y.
The management team experience across the Qantas Group speaks for itself!
Think carefully,
Referring to the additional cost of having to retrofit aircraft seating, after his management team decided not to order reclining seats in the recent A320s so that a further three seats could be squeezed in to make it 180Y.
The management team experience across the Qantas Group speaks for itself!
Think carefully,
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Current QF management
Just a lowly engineer making comment.
If you wish to see the direction QF management is heading in fruitful negotiations with staff, look at how they are handling the Sunstate engineers EBA.
I think all staff are proud of working for Qantas and will do or have done anything in the past to support the brands reputation.
As it panes out AJ could possibly pay everyone's pay rise with his bonus if the group makes a profit in these hard & difficult times. Will he offer it up to improve relations, could he cut the spin doctors pay to improve moral. The consultants get paid irrespective of results.
Another engagement survey to see where they can improve - didn't they like the results of the last 2. Haven't seen any significant improvement in management performance to date.
I will continue to support Qantas the brand by not leaving and I will employ a famous quote :
" keep the bastards honest "
If you wish to see the direction QF management is heading in fruitful negotiations with staff, look at how they are handling the Sunstate engineers EBA.
I think all staff are proud of working for Qantas and will do or have done anything in the past to support the brands reputation.
As it panes out AJ could possibly pay everyone's pay rise with his bonus if the group makes a profit in these hard & difficult times. Will he offer it up to improve relations, could he cut the spin doctors pay to improve moral. The consultants get paid irrespective of results.
Another engagement survey to see where they can improve - didn't they like the results of the last 2. Haven't seen any significant improvement in management performance to date.
I will continue to support Qantas the brand by not leaving and I will employ a famous quote :
" keep the bastards honest "
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PIA will not end up in 1989.
For those of you you who don't know/remember Qantas longhaul pilots were not directly involved in 1989.
1966 was the last Qantas pilot strike, this situation is more like that, EXCEPT we now have PIA.
Once all the sabre rattling dies down it will boil down to secure jobs/ or war.
It is not about huge pay rises!
For those of you you who don't know/remember Qantas longhaul pilots were not directly involved in 1989.
1966 was the last Qantas pilot strike, this situation is more like that, EXCEPT we now have PIA.
Once all the sabre rattling dies down it will boil down to secure jobs/ or war.
It is not about huge pay rises!
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System of management. Atrocious!
The only thing that makes working for this company great is the great people working at the coal face.
I think we all understand the pressures faced by the airline industry and are not actually asking for that much.
However, management and their accountants will seemingly never understand how an airline actually operates at the grass roots level due to the fact that they are only interested in feathering their own nests and are blinded in their pursuit of bonuses.
It seems they are only there for a short stint anyway and when they leave, we who have made this industry our life being both professional and dedicated, are left holding the **** end of the stick.
The only way to break their stare is to do it with a bat. Which is unfortunate. However if one where to cave in to their spin, where would our salarys and conditions be now.
No prizes for quessing! Don't be scared to stand up for your rights.
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
I think we all understand the pressures faced by the airline industry and are not actually asking for that much.
However, management and their accountants will seemingly never understand how an airline actually operates at the grass roots level due to the fact that they are only interested in feathering their own nests and are blinded in their pursuit of bonuses.
It seems they are only there for a short stint anyway and when they leave, we who have made this industry our life being both professional and dedicated, are left holding the **** end of the stick.
The only way to break their stare is to do it with a bat. Which is unfortunate. However if one where to cave in to their spin, where would our salarys and conditions be now.
No prizes for quessing! Don't be scared to stand up for your rights.
Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
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26% over 3 years
Hopefully a reputable journalist in Australia (wishful thinking but it could happen
) will ask the question of Qantas management (Joyce or any of his spinners) to give a breakdown of this claim of 26%???
If he is adamant about the figure please ask him if he would put his job on the line (resign) if it is proven to be misleading.
It seems a global trend that Execs come out with all sorts of rubbish with no conviction and are rarely put under the spotlight for misleading the public. Just look at the banking sector re fees.
Question Mr Joyce, taking your family on staff travel in which the employee pays (and on standby, not confirmed like yourself and partner) isn't exactly a payrise is it???? Honestly??
Maybe this time the GD apprentice has bitten off more than he can chew.
The Mainline pilots have nothing to loose this time round as most feel its already gone.
) will ask the question of Qantas management (Joyce or any of his spinners) to give a breakdown of this claim of 26%???If he is adamant about the figure please ask him if he would put his job on the line (resign) if it is proven to be misleading.
It seems a global trend that Execs come out with all sorts of rubbish with no conviction and are rarely put under the spotlight for misleading the public. Just look at the banking sector re fees.
Question Mr Joyce, taking your family on staff travel in which the employee pays (and on standby, not confirmed like yourself and partner) isn't exactly a payrise is it???? Honestly??
Maybe this time the GD apprentice has bitten off more than he can chew.
The Mainline pilots have nothing to loose this time round as most feel its already gone.
Perhaps if QANTAS long haul pilots had been just a little more 'involved' during 'that year' things would be different now...
Captain Dart :
A few facts :
To put it in perspective :
Now take into account the number of 'A' pilots (ex Australian Airlines) above me on the list, and that really doesn't leave a huge number of pilots who stood by and did not get 'involved' in that year. By no means does it represent the majority of current QF pilots.
So do you think it is about time to bury the hatchet and get over who did and did not support you back then? Should we not be looking at what is happening NOW and what we can do to stop this nation's aviation industry from disappearing altogether?
Perhaps if QANTAS long haul pilots had been just a little more 'involved' during 'that year' things would be different now
- I sit between one third and halfway up the seniority list at Qantas.
- I am an F/O on the B767.
- I was not a cadet.
- I am not overly young for my position.
To put it in perspective :
- I was in year 3 at primary school finger painting, learning how to spell and construct sentences during "that year".
Now take into account the number of 'A' pilots (ex Australian Airlines) above me on the list, and that really doesn't leave a huge number of pilots who stood by and did not get 'involved' in that year. By no means does it represent the majority of current QF pilots.
So do you think it is about time to bury the hatchet and get over who did and did not support you back then? Should we not be looking at what is happening NOW and what we can do to stop this nation's aviation industry from disappearing altogether?
Last edited by OneDotLow; 11th Feb 2011 at 08:01.
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One Dot and Kremin
With respect, I think you miss the thrust of Dart's comment.
He was not casting aspersions on the current Q LH drivers.
He was making an observation that all those years ago, had the Q LH guys realised the implications of what was going on and joined with the domestics in a show of fraternal solidarity opposing outrageous treatment (much as now), THEN we would not have this mess to clean up now.
Interesting isn't it, that Old meadow is up to his arms in it AGAIN.
SS
With respect, I think you miss the thrust of Dart's comment.
He was not casting aspersions on the current Q LH drivers.
He was making an observation that all those years ago, had the Q LH guys realised the implications of what was going on and joined with the domestics in a show of fraternal solidarity opposing outrageous treatment (much as now), THEN we would not have this mess to clean up now.
Interesting isn't it, that Old meadow is up to his arms in it AGAIN.
SS
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Of course its not 89 Onedotlow, but the consequences can be similar. Like not have a job. At least we were able to find employment OS, it would be far more difficult these days. Also don't rely on the Govt. to support you simply because its a Labor Govt. and supposed to support the "workers", we found out the hard way that their capitalist mates were more important. No, they will support QF if it ever comes to that, and I certainly hope it does not. Play it real cool fella's do not end up like us. Nobody wins.
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They said there is no threat to mainline jobs, right?
Recent media release from QF PR:
Flying 737-800's that were designated to go to mainline, and fly mainline routes, of which this is one. Operated by pilots wearing Qantas uniforms, purporting to be QF pilots, but being paid half the pay.
Yeah boys, your jobs are safe.
Recent media release from QF PR:
'SIR EDMUND HILLARY' JOINS TRANS-TASMAN FLEET Qantas unveiled a new Boeing 737-800, named Sir Edmund Hillary at Wellington Airport this week, honouring the achievements of the legendary explorer and mountaineer. The aircraft will be operated by Jetconnect on trans-Tasman services. Two further B737-800s will join the trans-Tasman fleet later this month, named Abel Tasman, after the first European to discover the south island of New Zealand, and William Pickering, a New Zealander who made a significant contribution to space exploration.
Yeah boys, your jobs are safe.
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89 has NOTHING to do with the current situation. Anyone who thinks it does has not moved with the times.
Provided you comply with the laws of the land (something that didn't happen in 1989), you cannot be sacked if you engage in lawful Protected Industrial Action.
And no union leader in his right mind would EVER advocate resigning as an industrial tactic.
That is not to say that an employer cannot attempt to escalate a dispute to get a union to do something silly. That is the main risk. But provided cool heads remain, PIA remains the ONLY way a workforce can get its point across in times like these.
Provided you comply with the laws of the land (something that didn't happen in 1989), you cannot be sacked if you engage in lawful Protected Industrial Action.
And no union leader in his right mind would EVER advocate resigning as an industrial tactic.
That is not to say that an employer cannot attempt to escalate a dispute to get a union to do something silly. That is the main risk. But provided cool heads remain, PIA remains the ONLY way a workforce can get its point across in times like these.
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As I said Capt. Kremin, stay cool. We would HATE you blokes end up like us. And as I said, no job is not funny. All strikes bring lessons, learn from us. And beware of traps, they are out there. Slowly slowly catchee monkey. Believe it.
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TG, you were one of the lucky ones to get jobs overseas.
I was young then and did not have the experience to get a job elsewhere.
Unemployment, bankruptcy, divorce, serious personal issues - you name it, we experienced it all over the next few years, while you and others had a job and an income.
These are the real stories of 'that' era and not some of the cock and bull stuff we were fed in union meetings and mailouts.
The message here is to ensure your executive does things properly this time. Don't be railroaded by self interest groups that may well be able to get work elsewhere if this falls over.
This is serious stuff - If someone wants you take industrial action, think very carefully and intuitively. Be informed from as many sources as possible.
I was young then and did not have the experience to get a job elsewhere.
Unemployment, bankruptcy, divorce, serious personal issues - you name it, we experienced it all over the next few years, while you and others had a job and an income.
These are the real stories of 'that' era and not some of the cock and bull stuff we were fed in union meetings and mailouts.
The message here is to ensure your executive does things properly this time. Don't be railroaded by self interest groups that may well be able to get work elsewhere if this falls over.
This is serious stuff - If someone wants you take industrial action, think very carefully and intuitively. Be informed from as many sources as possible.
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1989 vs 2011
No one is planning any mass resignations. All action that will be taken will be done under protected industrial action within the laws of FWA.
In 1989 the media was controlled by Ables and Hawke during the dispute and the pilots never really had a chance. Today news comes thick and fast from so many directions (journo's scout everywhere for a story) that a few execs in what has now become unfortunately a second tier business (of there own doing) wont be able to contain all the spotfires set by the loyal QF staff.
Australians are sick of the big bad bully corporations.
So sit back, grab a beer and enjoy the end of Mr Joyce's short QF career.
In 1989 the media was controlled by Ables and Hawke during the dispute and the pilots never really had a chance. Today news comes thick and fast from so many directions (journo's scout everywhere for a story) that a few execs in what has now become unfortunately a second tier business (of there own doing) wont be able to contain all the spotfires set by the loyal QF staff.
Australians are sick of the big bad bully corporations.
So sit back, grab a beer and enjoy the end of Mr Joyce's short QF career.
Onedot, some of your colleagues may not even have been gleams in their fathers' eyes during 'that year', but QF International pilots accepted 'encrustations' (ex-Australian Airlines) onto your seniority list when Australian was absorbed by QANTAS. You may have flown with some of them.
If push comes to shove will these fellows stick with their 'mates' this time? And I bet that a few ex-Ansett individuals in Jetstar would have no compunction in operating QF sectors during a stoush.
If push comes to shove will these fellows stick with their 'mates' this time? And I bet that a few ex-Ansett individuals in Jetstar would have no compunction in operating QF sectors during a stoush.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 11th Feb 2011 at 23:09.
Captain Dart, when are you going to accept the facts.
QF pilots only flew 4 additional services during that dispute and they were flown with the approval of the AFAP as they were "hardship cases". All the other flights were normal Qantas scheduled services - not strike breaking flights.
QF pilots did not have a dispute with their management (at that time) so why would they impose hardship on the airline and it's passengers by joining the domestic pilots on strike. Hawke did try to bully QF management into flying strike breaking services but AIPA forcefully told management that QF pilots would not fly any additional services.
The domestic pilots had the moral support of QF pilots at all stages of the dispute.
QF pilots did not have a dispute with their management (at that time) so why would they impose hardship on the airline and it's passengers by joining the domestic pilots on strike. Hawke did try to bully QF management into flying strike breaking services but AIPA forcefully told management that QF pilots would not fly any additional services.
The domestic pilots had the moral support of QF pilots at all stages of the dispute.
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They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.
Seriously....for the majority of crew....this is the last thing on their mind. There is no paxing if there are no jobs!!!!!!!!