Non-transponder access to Class E+TMZ airways
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
Non-transponder access to Class E+TMZ airways
Just been watching, courtesy of FR24, a number of FLARM-equipped gliders crossing/operating in N560 south of Inverness between FL150 and FL180. This is Class E+TMZ airspace. While gliders have an exemption from transponder carriage between FL100 and FL195 over much of Scotland, as I understand it that only applies in Class G airspace.
I guess these gliders may have got RT clearance to cross non-SSR - is that a normal procedure for these Class E+TMZ airways?
Complication is that although Scottish is the promulgated authority for this section of N560, I noticed that a few of the Inverness outbounds were still wearing Inverness squawks as they flew through the area where the gliders were operating. Is this airspace delegated to Inverness?
NS
I guess these gliders may have got RT clearance to cross non-SSR - is that a normal procedure for these Class E+TMZ airways?
Complication is that although Scottish is the promulgated authority for this section of N560, I noticed that a few of the Inverness outbounds were still wearing Inverness squawks as they flew through the area where the gliders were operating. Is this airspace delegated to Inverness?
NS
Surprised no-one answered you, NorthSouth.
First, you are correct that it is likely they will simply have asked for and received ATC clearance for crossing the airway. Usually that will be by the most direct route, with a height range quoted. These sailplanes are typically flying in wave, so may be able to climb as they pass across the airway rather than descend, depending on conditions. The one they can't generally do is hold altitude while crossing.
I can't speak for Inverness, having never asked to cross that corridor, but other ATC units have been helpful and accommodating in the past when direct crossings have been requested.
Some of the machines may have transponders; quite a number of high spec sailplanes do.
That airway is not particularly busy, in fact the whole Inverness area is generally not especially busy, so clearance should not be too hard to obtain. There are also high altitude 'wave boxes' which can be opened by ATC, by agreement with the various gliding clubs, in suitable conditions. I believe that normally requires twelve hours notice or more for activation.
I don't know how close to N560 those go, but they do mean that quite high altitude sailplanes might occasionally want to pass through N560.
I hope that helps.
First, you are correct that it is likely they will simply have asked for and received ATC clearance for crossing the airway. Usually that will be by the most direct route, with a height range quoted. These sailplanes are typically flying in wave, so may be able to climb as they pass across the airway rather than descend, depending on conditions. The one they can't generally do is hold altitude while crossing.
I can't speak for Inverness, having never asked to cross that corridor, but other ATC units have been helpful and accommodating in the past when direct crossings have been requested.
Some of the machines may have transponders; quite a number of high spec sailplanes do.
That airway is not particularly busy, in fact the whole Inverness area is generally not especially busy, so clearance should not be too hard to obtain. There are also high altitude 'wave boxes' which can be opened by ATC, by agreement with the various gliding clubs, in suitable conditions. I believe that normally requires twelve hours notice or more for activation.
I don't know how close to N560 those go, but they do mean that quite high altitude sailplanes might occasionally want to pass through N560.
I hope that helps.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have no transponder, you _must_ call to get clearance through or in to N560, Scottish (west) look at the traffic in the E+ (and it's _not_ an airway . . . ) and either clear you through unconditionally, clear you through with a "not above FL xxx" clearance or clear you through in a height corridor i.e. cleared through between FL160 and FL140 (which is a bit tight) or make you wait for a while.
You can pretty much treat E+ as G as long as you are squawking 7000 (there are slight variations in VMC requirements in E+ from G)
Making the controllers lives easier means that most of us call even when we are squawking.
Controlled separation distances depend on what service is being provided to what traffic, sometimes Scottish maintain 3k vertical feet separation sometimes they advise on where traffic is.
I'm astounded by how helpful and proactive the controllers are considering the woeful RT by some glider pilots (I am one and I am dismal on the radio, I do have a proper license too)
We can also sneak underneath N560 in the summer, it's a bit suicidal in the winter to do that.
Main entertainment is the Logan air driver, patently born south of the wall, absolutely impeccable RT, his Tree's and Tousands are straight out of Cap 360, the joy of him being given ever more complex read backs and nailing them cheers me up no end of a cold morning . .
In short, if you want to cross N560, talk to Scottish, they'll facilitate as best as conditions allow at the time.
You can pretty much treat E+ as G as long as you are squawking 7000 (there are slight variations in VMC requirements in E+ from G)
Making the controllers lives easier means that most of us call even when we are squawking.
Controlled separation distances depend on what service is being provided to what traffic, sometimes Scottish maintain 3k vertical feet separation sometimes they advise on where traffic is.
I'm astounded by how helpful and proactive the controllers are considering the woeful RT by some glider pilots (I am one and I am dismal on the radio, I do have a proper license too)
We can also sneak underneath N560 in the summer, it's a bit suicidal in the winter to do that.
Main entertainment is the Logan air driver, patently born south of the wall, absolutely impeccable RT, his Tree's and Tousands are straight out of Cap 360, the joy of him being given ever more complex read backs and nailing them cheers me up no end of a cold morning . .
In short, if you want to cross N560, talk to Scottish, they'll facilitate as best as conditions allow at the time.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe Feshie and Inverness have an agreement that lets gliders operate within the N560 with prior arrangement and within set boundaries, and as far as I am aware this is possibly the first time it has ever been used.
Airwave45 - your RT may improve if you refer to the CAP413, rather than the "Air Operator's Certificate - Arrangements for Maintenance"
Airwave45 - your RT may improve if you refer to the CAP413, rather than the "Air Operator's Certificate - Arrangements for Maintenance"
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
airwave45, are you aware how different accents can lose tone over the RTF? This means that using "impeccable RTF" - or standard phraseology, is crucial to be understood. A Mancunian accent (and other Northern areas) have to say "too" and "tree" as "two" and "three" actually sound identical to the other end. Northern Irish also have a similar problem with these numbers, but also "seven" and "zero".
If you know that your accent has a potential to be misunderstood, then using the ICAO standard phraseology may sound "entertaining" to you, but I talk from first hand experience that it is imperative for safety reasons.
If you know that your accent has a potential to be misunderstood, then using the ICAO standard phraseology may sound "entertaining" to you, but I talk from first hand experience that it is imperative for safety reasons.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5miles . . .
indeed.
my RT is "good enough" it's not my day job, I don't aspire for it to be my day job, I'm understood by those I'm talking with.
I'm impressed by those who do do it well, I'm not one of them.
Anyway, 'tis late and I'm planning annoying people with crossings of 560 and 580 tomorrow :-)
indeed.
my RT is "good enough" it's not my day job, I don't aspire for it to be my day job, I'm understood by those I'm talking with.
I'm impressed by those who do do it well, I'm not one of them.
Anyway, 'tis late and I'm planning annoying people with crossings of 560 and 580 tomorrow :-)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
airwave:
Thanks for your account of what's required from a glider pilot perspective. I'm still curious about the fact that quite a few of the Inverness outbounds are still wearing Inverness squawks as they pass through the area west of Feshie and above FL95/105 and therefore inside the Class E. I'm not sure if this is because they can see non-SSR gliders on their primary radar in that area and therefore hang on to their traffic until it's clear of the unidentified traffic - but that would presumably require some agreement between Inverness ATC and Scottish.
Not sure what you mean by "it's _not_ an airway" other than perhaps no airways are airways any more, they're all Lower Air Traffic Service Routes. And in relation to "You can pretty much treat E+ as G as long as you are squawking 7000", that of course depends on your ability to maintain VMC. I would also like to know whether the commercial operators through that airspace train their aircrew to adopt different lookout procedures in Class E - and of course when they drop out of E into G north of Kingussie/Newtonmore.
Very pleased (and not at all surprised) that the Scottish controllers do their level best to accommodate you.
NS
Thanks for your account of what's required from a glider pilot perspective. I'm still curious about the fact that quite a few of the Inverness outbounds are still wearing Inverness squawks as they pass through the area west of Feshie and above FL95/105 and therefore inside the Class E. I'm not sure if this is because they can see non-SSR gliders on their primary radar in that area and therefore hang on to their traffic until it's clear of the unidentified traffic - but that would presumably require some agreement between Inverness ATC and Scottish.
Not sure what you mean by "it's _not_ an airway" other than perhaps no airways are airways any more, they're all Lower Air Traffic Service Routes. And in relation to "You can pretty much treat E+ as G as long as you are squawking 7000", that of course depends on your ability to maintain VMC. I would also like to know whether the commercial operators through that airspace train their aircrew to adopt different lookout procedures in Class E - and of course when they drop out of E into G north of Kingussie/Newtonmore.
Very pleased (and not at all surprised) that the Scottish controllers do their level best to accommodate you.
NS
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "It's _not_ an airway" comment is just that, it is not an airway.
It is class G if you are squawking (with slight changes to VMC minima.)
You don't need permission to be in it, you don't have to tell anyone you are in it.
As long as your transponder is on, that's it, treat it as Class G. (slight change in VMC minima)
We, through politeness, tend to speak to Scottish, prior to entry as they do like to treat it as "An Airway"
I have informed controllers that I'll be entering and been met with "That is approved" even though I neither need nor have asked for approval.
Custom and practice locally means that it really is being treated as an airway, which baffles non locals who have actually read the rules and don't understand why we are behaving this way.
The reality is that P600 is easier to get across than N560, even though the traffic levels differ hugely.
E+ is a cluster from start to finish, it bewilders non locals, as do the types of service on offer in Class G.
The daily bemusement of non local crews when offered a choice of service _should_ make it obvious that the wheel is being reinvented here when there is currently a perfectly serviceable wheel in use elsewhere already.
The inability to vector traffic into Class G requires a rewrite of local UK rules to allow that; not the invention of ever more exotic forms of airspace. TMZ mandatory / E+ / Radio mandatory . .
Just vector traffic into class G and be done with it.
Seems to work everywhere else.
All that aside, it would help glider guiders if we knew what controllers want when they ask for our position, We know to the meter where we are, all our flights are recorded in 3 dimensions accurately, we have EFIS systems that show us in 3 dimensions relative to ground features and airspace (I can lurk 100m from any given airway (real ones) or Class D and _know_ that I'm not in them.
I've tried giving my position relative to the VRP's, Relative to decent towns and neither seem to mean much to the controllers, squawking ident works neatly but I don't know how much information you have on your screens or what it shows (If we knew that, we could give you position information that meant something to you, but we don't know what you can see so we are guessing at what you want)
Maybe I should take my glider to the center and rig it so you can see what info normal gliders give to the pilots ?
You could let us know what you can see so that we can give you information that relates to your sphere of reference (although I have the impression that controllers in places like Inverness would get better information from Flight Radar 24 coupled with "Spot the gliders" than they get from the national system . . . (been wrong before tho))
It is class G if you are squawking (with slight changes to VMC minima.)
You don't need permission to be in it, you don't have to tell anyone you are in it.
As long as your transponder is on, that's it, treat it as Class G. (slight change in VMC minima)
We, through politeness, tend to speak to Scottish, prior to entry as they do like to treat it as "An Airway"
I have informed controllers that I'll be entering and been met with "That is approved" even though I neither need nor have asked for approval.
Custom and practice locally means that it really is being treated as an airway, which baffles non locals who have actually read the rules and don't understand why we are behaving this way.
The reality is that P600 is easier to get across than N560, even though the traffic levels differ hugely.
E+ is a cluster from start to finish, it bewilders non locals, as do the types of service on offer in Class G.
The daily bemusement of non local crews when offered a choice of service _should_ make it obvious that the wheel is being reinvented here when there is currently a perfectly serviceable wheel in use elsewhere already.
The inability to vector traffic into Class G requires a rewrite of local UK rules to allow that; not the invention of ever more exotic forms of airspace. TMZ mandatory / E+ / Radio mandatory . .
Just vector traffic into class G and be done with it.
Seems to work everywhere else.
All that aside, it would help glider guiders if we knew what controllers want when they ask for our position, We know to the meter where we are, all our flights are recorded in 3 dimensions accurately, we have EFIS systems that show us in 3 dimensions relative to ground features and airspace (I can lurk 100m from any given airway (real ones) or Class D and _know_ that I'm not in them.
I've tried giving my position relative to the VRP's, Relative to decent towns and neither seem to mean much to the controllers, squawking ident works neatly but I don't know how much information you have on your screens or what it shows (If we knew that, we could give you position information that meant something to you, but we don't know what you can see so we are guessing at what you want)
Maybe I should take my glider to the center and rig it so you can see what info normal gliders give to the pilots ?
You could let us know what you can see so that we can give you information that relates to your sphere of reference (although I have the impression that controllers in places like Inverness would get better information from Flight Radar 24 coupled with "Spot the gliders" than they get from the national system . . . (been wrong before tho))
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good airmanship / manners, both the same thing.
I want to make life as easy as possible for those who are actually working for a living while I'm goofing about enjoying the scenery.
And it is good scenery.
Huge picture, sorry, From one of the local clubs facebook pages. picture taken 3 days ago.
I want to make life as easy as possible for those who are actually working for a living while I'm goofing about enjoying the scenery.
And it is good scenery.
Huge picture, sorry, From one of the local clubs facebook pages. picture taken 3 days ago.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
I understand your thinking that E+TMZ "is Class G if you are squawking". But apart from getting into a semantic debate, there are surely some significant differences:
1) unlike Class G, you need to be absolutely sure you can maintain VMC throughout your time in that airspace
2) if you go in there not talking to ATC, you are wholly reliant on your transponder working, but you have no way of telling whether it is or not
3) if you're an unverified squawk, AIUI ATC will give their IFR traffic 5nm or 3000ft separation on you; but if you're speaking to them they may be able to reduce that to 1000ft vertical (above!) which could make life a lot easier for them
I agree though that the plethora of airspace types that has developed is increasingly confusing.
1) unlike Class G, you need to be absolutely sure you can maintain VMC throughout your time in that airspace
2) if you go in there not talking to ATC, you are wholly reliant on your transponder working, but you have no way of telling whether it is or not
3) if you're an unverified squawk, AIUI ATC will give their IFR traffic 5nm or 3000ft separation on you; but if you're speaking to them they may be able to reduce that to 1000ft vertical (above!) which could make life a lot easier for them
I agree though that the plethora of airspace types that has developed is increasingly confusing.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1) unlike Class G, you need to be absolutely sure you can maintain VMC throughout your time in that airspace
2) if you go in there not talking to ATC, you are wholly reliant on your transponder working, but you have no way of telling whether it is or not
I paid 300e during the annual to check that it was working and watched the guys test it in mode S all the way up and down it's certified range, it works.
3) if you're an unverified squawk, AIUI ATC will give their IFR traffic 5nm or 3000ft separation on you; but if you're speaking to them they may be able to reduce that to 1000ft vertical (above!) which could make life a lot easier for them
Might even be a danger to both of us, I'm not usually any good at maintaining either a level or a heading and don't usually try (made one exception last week)
Depends entirely on the type of service being provided to the IFR traffic as class E isn't really controlled airspace.
We _do_ try to make life easier for the boys with the Scrambled egg on their hats, Scottish are _great_ to interface with.
Keep trying to trip up the Logan Air driver with ever more complex read back requests,
1) it's entertaining
2) it's educational, I learn _lots_ from listening.
Airwave45's anecdote about being given 'approval' to enter Class E in VMC is a symptom of long-standing problems (from my perspective as a pilot) with the application of CAS in the UK. It's my view that the ATCO's "duty of care" results in the treatment of classes C, D and E as class B, to all intents and purposes - i.e. all traffic requiring 'clearance' to enter, and all traffic separated regardless of flight rules. Among other effects are the difficulties GA pilots often experience in gaining access to CTZs, the supplanting of formal separation standards with easily-disregarded 'airmanship' advice in the UK AIP, the profusion of local procedures such as TMZs and ATSOCAS, and the oddity of instrument traffic at regional and military airfields being forced to 'mix it' in IMC with low-altitude Class G VFR traffic. Over-zealous application of separation in all classes of CAS by ATCOs has entrenched push-back against CAS by non-airline airspace users, resulting in no-one being especially happy with the end result (see, for example, the argument over EGLF). Wider use of Class E or proper application of Class D VFR separation standards (i.e. none) would give a predictable level of service to IFR traffic on bad weather days (no more scud-running near airfields) while not hindering GA in good weather. But I think there is too strong an attachment to the UK's approach among ATCOs and the CAA for there to be any prospect of change.
Last edited by Easy Street; 7th Oct 2016 at 20:34.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To follow up, absolute kudos to Logan air, who are calling (at least one) gliding club (and there are only 4 in Scotland) to ascertain how many gliders are likely to be at what FL many times daily. (per flight it seems)
Open invitation to the Logan air drivers for a free flight in a proper high performance glider by way of thanks for their proactive participation in flight safety without resorting to more rules or exclusions. (although, I'm sure they are coming . . . )
Said glider does have a donkey in the back to compensate for poor conditions / pilot ability
(it's also a 2 seater, so I'll look after you out there, dangerous place with all that commercial flying going on . . . )
Slightly irked that the FL100 restrictions only apply to Scotland (must have transponder above FL100 or prior Notam) but not England and Wales.
pm me for free flight. (at your convenience)
Open invitation to the Logan air drivers for a free flight in a proper high performance glider by way of thanks for their proactive participation in flight safety without resorting to more rules or exclusions. (although, I'm sure they are coming . . . )
Said glider does have a donkey in the back to compensate for poor conditions / pilot ability
(it's also a 2 seater, so I'll look after you out there, dangerous place with all that commercial flying going on . . . )
Slightly irked that the FL100 restrictions only apply to Scotland (must have transponder above FL100 or prior Notam) but not England and Wales.
pm me for free flight. (at your convenience)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
After some digging, I now have some answers to my original questions. Yes, ATC in the N560 airway south of Inverness is delegated to Inverness (up to FL130), hence departing traffic being seen still wearing Inverness squawks when at FL100+ some way south of Inverness. This is spelled out in the NATS/HIAL/BGA LoA on the "GUSSI box", which allows gliders to operate at weekends in a 3 x 15nm chunk of N560, up to FL190, without needing a clearance to enter and without a transponder. It has to be activated through a request by Feshie to Scottish.
What is slightly peculiar about the GUSSI box arrangements is that "IFR aircraft are not restricted from entering the GUSSI Box but should not be encouraged to do so" and "Controllers are not required to provide navigational assistance to pilots to avoid the GUSSI Box unless requested" - a little odd given that all IFR traffic in this airspace will be under a radar control service.
I also find it worrying that, given that controllers are not expected to actively vector traffic away from the box, so the onus is on non-glider pilots to know that the GUSSI box is activated and where it is, the LoA states: "The GUSSI Box is promulgated in the UK AIP". I can find no mention of the GUSSI box anywhere in the AIP or AICs. So how do pilots know?
Coming back to some of your points airwave:
Crossing of/operating in N560 without a squawk (and therefore requiring a clearance to operate non-SSR) would not AIUI require maintenance of a heading or a level. You'd be given a "not above" clearance and asked for an expected exit time. The only thing it might stop you doing is climbing.
I know you really want that to be the case airwave but unfortunately it IS really controlled airspace, with all IFR traffic on a radar control service. There's no option for IFR traffic to be getting anything other than an RCS.
Coming back to the GUSSI box, since this only covers the eastern 3nm section of the 10nm wide airway, it doesn't provide a mechanism for gliders to cross the entirety of N560 other than by (a) having a transponder or (b) getting a clearance from Scottish.
AIUI the requirement for NOTAM activation of the Scottish non-SSR area only came in when the exemption was re-negotiated in April. However, bizarrely, the new version of the exemption - ORS4 No.1162 - contains nothing about requiring NOTAM activation. So it's not clear how the published rules prevent anyone from flying non-SSR over Scotland without any prior notification.
As regards them being different from the rules in England and Wales, is this not just a case of the Scottish area being first up for renewal, and NATS/CAA will seek to apply the same provisions when they review the exemptions south of the border next year? It may also be relevant that the Scottish exemption applies to virtually the whole of Scottish airspace, whereas the other areas are much smaller.
NS
What is slightly peculiar about the GUSSI box arrangements is that "IFR aircraft are not restricted from entering the GUSSI Box but should not be encouraged to do so" and "Controllers are not required to provide navigational assistance to pilots to avoid the GUSSI Box unless requested" - a little odd given that all IFR traffic in this airspace will be under a radar control service.
I also find it worrying that, given that controllers are not expected to actively vector traffic away from the box, so the onus is on non-glider pilots to know that the GUSSI box is activated and where it is, the LoA states: "The GUSSI Box is promulgated in the UK AIP". I can find no mention of the GUSSI box anywhere in the AIP or AICs. So how do pilots know?
Coming back to some of your points airwave:
I'm not usually any good at maintaining either a level or a heading and don't usually try
Depends entirely on the type of service being provided to the IFR traffic as class E isn't really controlled airspace
Coming back to the GUSSI box, since this only covers the eastern 3nm section of the 10nm wide airway, it doesn't provide a mechanism for gliders to cross the entirety of N560 other than by (a) having a transponder or (b) getting a clearance from Scottish.
Slightly irked that the FL100 restrictions only apply to Scotland (must have transponder above FL100 or prior Notam) but not England and Wales
As regards them being different from the rules in England and Wales, is this not just a case of the Scottish area being first up for renewal, and NATS/CAA will seek to apply the same provisions when they review the exemptions south of the border next year? It may also be relevant that the Scottish exemption applies to virtually the whole of Scottish airspace, whereas the other areas are much smaller.
NS
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
class E isn't really controlled airspace
I know you really want that to be the case airwave but unfortunately it IS really controlled airspace, with all IFR traffic on a radar control service. There's no option for IFR traffic to be getting anything other than an RCS.
And how does this "Control" affect squawking VFR traffic ?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: 29 Acacia Road
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding of the Gussi box, is that it's in Class E (+tmz), but as the contents of it will be VFR, there is nothing to stop IFR traffic routing through it, as long as traffic information is provided. Personally, I would pass traffic info on the box itself, and if asked, or deemed necessary, vector traffic to miss the box.
I think the 'peculiarities' stem from the fact it's the first reserved area in 'controlled' airspace that isn't classes A-D, and the access rules therefore throw up some unusual scenarios.
Some of this stuff is also why IFR pilots are specifically told when they are entering/leaving class E.
HTH.
I think the 'peculiarities' stem from the fact it's the first reserved area in 'controlled' airspace that isn't classes A-D, and the access rules therefore throw up some unusual scenarios.
Some of this stuff is also why IFR pilots are specifically told when they are entering/leaving class E.
HTH.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
So, when was the last time you heard of a glider flying IFR?
And how does this "Control" affect squawking VFR traffic ?
And how does this "Control" affect squawking VFR traffic ?
My main concern though is that the confusion you refer to airwave may lead to gliders crossing N560 non-transponder without clearance. Primary radar is notoriously poor at detecting gliders and of course gives no height information.
Great to hear Loganair's proactive approach though.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm perplexed at many of the responses to the OP.
Non-transponding VFR traffic can, as has been said, enter Class E/E+ airspace only with ATC approval. Transponding VFR traffic can enter without speaking to anyone.
During the hours of radar service at Inverness N560 from RIMOL to NESDI is delegated to Inverness up to Flight Level (FL) 130. Inbound IFR aircraft to Inverness from the south on N560 are transferred to Inverness radar descending to FL130 so may be under the control of Inverness ATC at any point below FL195 and depending on the tactical traffic situation outbound flights may be under the control of Inverness up till they reach FL195. Approach Radar ATCOs have a rating that can only be exercised within 40nm of the airfield and up to FL195. Hence the OP seeing traffic wearing Inverness squawks between FL100 and FL195.
In Class E/E+ airspace there is no separation requirement between IFR and VFR flights. Traffic information is all that is required. Why then would a glider be given a height to maintain, a band of levels or a track to fly? I'm puzzled at why a controller would be trying to separate IFR traffic from VFR in Class E/E+. A call from pilots to ATC with your intentions helps controllers give accurate traffic information to IFR flights and vice versa.
ATC shouldn't be giving any transponding VFR traffic that calls clearance to enter Class E/E+ airspace. If a pilot calls the "controlling authority" in the interests of good airmanship they should simply be asked to report entering Controlled Airspace and upon that call being received requested to maintain VMC and report leaving.
The GUSSI box has been mentioned a fair bit. By the gliding communities' own admission it is only required to be activated in particular weather conditions and even then only when pilots have a high degree of ability and when the LoA was written the gliding club admitted there were very few who were of that standard. I am unaware of the GUSSI box ever having been activated.
Outside Controlled Airspace Inverness ATC can provide IFR traffic with a Deconfliction Service, Traffic Service, Procedural Service or a Basic Service. When IFR inbound flights to Inverness leave Lower ATS Routes N560 or Y906, either laterally or vertically, they are given a Deconfliction Service by default unless they request a lesser service. At that point they must be separated by 3nm or 1000' from other identified aircraft that are displayed on radar as both primary and secondary returns. 5nm and 3000' has to be provided against unknown traffic seen as a primary and secondary return with Mode C. The separation standard against traffic which is not identified and only seen as a primary return, or with secondary but no Mode C, is 5nm. There is a sudden jump from no separation standard within Controlled Class E/E+ Airspace between IFR and VFR to very proscriptive standards within Uncontrolled Class G Airspace when flights are in receipt of a Deconfliction Service. This can present ATCOs with some problems but delaying descent to keep aircraft in CAS till they are clear of any transponding gliders (or other VFR traffic) is one solution.
The ability and experience levels of pilots varies and the same is true of controllers. It may not be the busiest airspace in the world but the complexity of airspace, mix of airspace users and the service provision rules in the general vicinity of Inverness are complex, not always easy to understand and can be frustrating for both pilots and controllers. Familiarisation flights and visits to towers to promote a better understanding of each other's roles were regular occurrences before security issues restricted them.
Non-transponding VFR traffic can, as has been said, enter Class E/E+ airspace only with ATC approval. Transponding VFR traffic can enter without speaking to anyone.
During the hours of radar service at Inverness N560 from RIMOL to NESDI is delegated to Inverness up to Flight Level (FL) 130. Inbound IFR aircraft to Inverness from the south on N560 are transferred to Inverness radar descending to FL130 so may be under the control of Inverness ATC at any point below FL195 and depending on the tactical traffic situation outbound flights may be under the control of Inverness up till they reach FL195. Approach Radar ATCOs have a rating that can only be exercised within 40nm of the airfield and up to FL195. Hence the OP seeing traffic wearing Inverness squawks between FL100 and FL195.
In Class E/E+ airspace there is no separation requirement between IFR and VFR flights. Traffic information is all that is required. Why then would a glider be given a height to maintain, a band of levels or a track to fly? I'm puzzled at why a controller would be trying to separate IFR traffic from VFR in Class E/E+. A call from pilots to ATC with your intentions helps controllers give accurate traffic information to IFR flights and vice versa.
ATC shouldn't be giving any transponding VFR traffic that calls clearance to enter Class E/E+ airspace. If a pilot calls the "controlling authority" in the interests of good airmanship they should simply be asked to report entering Controlled Airspace and upon that call being received requested to maintain VMC and report leaving.
The GUSSI box has been mentioned a fair bit. By the gliding communities' own admission it is only required to be activated in particular weather conditions and even then only when pilots have a high degree of ability and when the LoA was written the gliding club admitted there were very few who were of that standard. I am unaware of the GUSSI box ever having been activated.
Outside Controlled Airspace Inverness ATC can provide IFR traffic with a Deconfliction Service, Traffic Service, Procedural Service or a Basic Service. When IFR inbound flights to Inverness leave Lower ATS Routes N560 or Y906, either laterally or vertically, they are given a Deconfliction Service by default unless they request a lesser service. At that point they must be separated by 3nm or 1000' from other identified aircraft that are displayed on radar as both primary and secondary returns. 5nm and 3000' has to be provided against unknown traffic seen as a primary and secondary return with Mode C. The separation standard against traffic which is not identified and only seen as a primary return, or with secondary but no Mode C, is 5nm. There is a sudden jump from no separation standard within Controlled Class E/E+ Airspace between IFR and VFR to very proscriptive standards within Uncontrolled Class G Airspace when flights are in receipt of a Deconfliction Service. This can present ATCOs with some problems but delaying descent to keep aircraft in CAS till they are clear of any transponding gliders (or other VFR traffic) is one solution.
The ability and experience levels of pilots varies and the same is true of controllers. It may not be the busiest airspace in the world but the complexity of airspace, mix of airspace users and the service provision rules in the general vicinity of Inverness are complex, not always easy to understand and can be frustrating for both pilots and controllers. Familiarisation flights and visits to towers to promote a better understanding of each other's roles were regular occurrences before security issues restricted them.
