Former RAF Church Fenton
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Your desire for a Yorkshire International Airport is laudable, but the one factor that has not been mentioned is the vast majority either don't care or don't want it. I am afraid you are in danger of swimming against the tide. I don't recall much mention in the Yorkshire Post or local business magazines any clamour for a new 'Leeds' airport or have I heard anything on Calendar or Look North. I attend a lot of meetings including the Northern Futures and do not recall it being a subject that has been mentioned at all.
The North has too many airports, and despite your contention that Finningley wasn't the answer, Finningley was touted to be exactly what you wanted and has hardly set the world on fire.
As has also been said hindsight is the only exact science, Heathrow would not have been built where it was, Manchester and Liverpool would have built on the former 5 runway USAAF base at Burtonwood and Yeadon would not be the airport for Leeds but there it is and despite your desperate wish for it to change it won't.
I live in Yorkshire, pay my taxes here and I would much rather any money available was spent on other projects than an airport that has no guarantee of being the success you wish it would be in a location that would be no more convenient for me.
Manchester will I am afraid remain the major gateway for the North of England and the flights you desire this side of the Pennines to DXB/EWR etc have already gone to Newcastle.
The North has too many airports, and despite your contention that Finningley wasn't the answer, Finningley was touted to be exactly what you wanted and has hardly set the world on fire.
As has also been said hindsight is the only exact science, Heathrow would not have been built where it was, Manchester and Liverpool would have built on the former 5 runway USAAF base at Burtonwood and Yeadon would not be the airport for Leeds but there it is and despite your desperate wish for it to change it won't.
I live in Yorkshire, pay my taxes here and I would much rather any money available was spent on other projects than an airport that has no guarantee of being the success you wish it would be in a location that would be no more convenient for me.
Manchester will I am afraid remain the major gateway for the North of England and the flights you desire this side of the Pennines to DXB/EWR etc have already gone to Newcastle.
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Church Fenton
Lets leave Fenton for GA and biz jets!
Take a look at the low cost airline model, they want free landing fees and approach fees. Ryanair wanted a £1.00 for every pax getting off at Blackpool.
The reason Blackpool closed was to get out of the contract with Jet2.
How would the new owners get there brass back? ATCOs 3 to 6 to cover shifts, fire cover for the larger aircraft : security costs etc. Nav Aids with the added costs of having them checked every 6 months, its a no brainer to make any money out of it.
P.B.
Take a look at the low cost airline model, they want free landing fees and approach fees. Ryanair wanted a £1.00 for every pax getting off at Blackpool.
The reason Blackpool closed was to get out of the contract with Jet2.
How would the new owners get there brass back? ATCOs 3 to 6 to cover shifts, fire cover for the larger aircraft : security costs etc. Nav Aids with the added costs of having them checked every 6 months, its a no brainer to make any money out of it.
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You make some very good points - I don't it's that Yorkshire people don't want an efficient airport - I think it is that they don't care. They have grown up with LBA's offering and MAN over the hill and just come to accept that's the way it is.
And apart from yourself are quite happy with that option.
They are not aviation experts and therefore do not realise LBA is totally inadequate.
No, they perceive it to be perfectly adequate to their needs.
People in Yorkshire will only realise what they and this county has been missing when a suitable airport is provided.
They already have perfectly suitable airports available and are happy with it, you just don't like the idea that the larger airport is in Manchester.
Another issue is that almost half Yorkshires population live in West Yorkshire, not far from LBA, so they wont be asking for another airport if they think it will be further away - that's why CF's location is critically important to the project working.
there is no political will for this project, their is no clamour for this airport, there is no need for this airport and that is why no one is asking for it.
Those politicians who thought finningley would be an airport for the whole of Yorkshire should have stuck to politics. The whole project revolves around two poorly placed low potential airports becoming one ideally placed airport with huge potential.
But for your project to get off the ground you need these ill informed politicians and they won't get their fingers burnt a second time you are right on that. So this argument is now predicated on closing Yeadon and Finningley, not a snowballs chance of that happening so you would have three airports fighting for the same traffic and you know what Yeadon would win. I work in logistics so I don't profess to be an avaiation expert merely I work in an avaiation related industry and have worked at LHR, LBA and MAN so I will bow to your more expert knowledge if you indeed are in the aviation industry.
Do you live in Halifax? Even from Halifax, the far west of region, getting to CF (with an A road from the A1 in time) would be so much quicker and easier than Yeadon or MAN and there wouldn't be the need to go over the top of the pennines (important in winter).
Yes I live in Halifax and over the last few years have flown from LBA, MAN, LPL and EMA whichever was the most suitable to my needs at the time. I had many years driving Halifax to Yeadon so I know the difficulties. I also drive regularly to MAN and I think you are over egging the difficulties, apart from a few occasions I cannot see CF being advantageous, you presume everyone will drive but I tend to use the train to MAN.
Newcastle is a purely North Eastern airport and pulls very few passengers from Yorkshire. Most people heading to DXB / EWR will go to MAN because of the train and motorway connection. If flights to New York / Dubai were started from CF they would be able to pull from the North East though. CF could pull passengers from all points of the compass to add to the passengers from Yorkshire and the Humber just like MAN does. Leeds is at the crossroads of the urban North. There are so many political obstacles to overcome for CF to be a success but if they were overcome CF would be a money making success for Yorkshire for years to come in exactly the same way MAN is now.
As has been asked are you sure NCL doesn't pull pax from the North of the region, I am no expert in Airline Yields but would EK for example want to fly from NCL, MAN and CF I am not convinced more likely they have the North covered as they are.
And apart from yourself are quite happy with that option.
They are not aviation experts and therefore do not realise LBA is totally inadequate.
No, they perceive it to be perfectly adequate to their needs.
People in Yorkshire will only realise what they and this county has been missing when a suitable airport is provided.
They already have perfectly suitable airports available and are happy with it, you just don't like the idea that the larger airport is in Manchester.
Another issue is that almost half Yorkshires population live in West Yorkshire, not far from LBA, so they wont be asking for another airport if they think it will be further away - that's why CF's location is critically important to the project working.
there is no political will for this project, their is no clamour for this airport, there is no need for this airport and that is why no one is asking for it.
Those politicians who thought finningley would be an airport for the whole of Yorkshire should have stuck to politics. The whole project revolves around two poorly placed low potential airports becoming one ideally placed airport with huge potential.
But for your project to get off the ground you need these ill informed politicians and they won't get their fingers burnt a second time you are right on that. So this argument is now predicated on closing Yeadon and Finningley, not a snowballs chance of that happening so you would have three airports fighting for the same traffic and you know what Yeadon would win. I work in logistics so I don't profess to be an avaiation expert merely I work in an avaiation related industry and have worked at LHR, LBA and MAN so I will bow to your more expert knowledge if you indeed are in the aviation industry.
Do you live in Halifax? Even from Halifax, the far west of region, getting to CF (with an A road from the A1 in time) would be so much quicker and easier than Yeadon or MAN and there wouldn't be the need to go over the top of the pennines (important in winter).
Yes I live in Halifax and over the last few years have flown from LBA, MAN, LPL and EMA whichever was the most suitable to my needs at the time. I had many years driving Halifax to Yeadon so I know the difficulties. I also drive regularly to MAN and I think you are over egging the difficulties, apart from a few occasions I cannot see CF being advantageous, you presume everyone will drive but I tend to use the train to MAN.
Newcastle is a purely North Eastern airport and pulls very few passengers from Yorkshire. Most people heading to DXB / EWR will go to MAN because of the train and motorway connection. If flights to New York / Dubai were started from CF they would be able to pull from the North East though. CF could pull passengers from all points of the compass to add to the passengers from Yorkshire and the Humber just like MAN does. Leeds is at the crossroads of the urban North. There are so many political obstacles to overcome for CF to be a success but if they were overcome CF would be a money making success for Yorkshire for years to come in exactly the same way MAN is now.
As has been asked are you sure NCL doesn't pull pax from the North of the region, I am no expert in Airline Yields but would EK for example want to fly from NCL, MAN and CF I am not convinced more likely they have the North covered as they are.
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Well said Pwalhx. I think you have nailed all the arguments there. As another local taxpayer I am in complete agreement with you. I would much prefer to travel by train which is an excellent way to travel and we have excellent connections to Man or LPL. More than adequate for most people`s needs
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You make some very good points - I don't it's that Yorkshire people don't want an efficient airport - I think it is that they don't care. They have grown up with LBA's offering and MAN over the hill and just come to accept that's the way it is.
And apart from yourself are quite happy with that option.
Ok - changing people's opinions on getting a new airport for Yorkshire will be tough. I give you that.
They are not aviation experts and therefore do not realise LBA is totally inadequate.
No, they perceive it to be perfectly adequate to their needs.
They put up with being diverted and the struggle to get to the airport and assume other destinations are not possible. I give you that.
People in Yorkshire will only realise what they and this county has been missing when a suitable airport is provided.
They already have perfectly suitable airports available and are happy with it, you just don't like the idea that the larger airport is in Manchester.
You say that as a Halifax resident - would you say the same in Hull, York or Grimsby? I love MAN airport but there is no reason why a similar airport could not be developed with easy access for the 5.3 million people who live East of the pennines. It would be a massive boost to the economy this side of the pennines and create 1000s of jobs.
Another issue is that almost half Yorkshires population live in West Yorkshire, not far from LBA, so they wont be asking for another airport if they think it will be further away - that's why CF's location is critically important to the project working.
there is no political will for this project, their is no clamour for this airport, there is no need for this airport and that is why no one is asking for it.
Perhaps not but the airport would be profitable and take millions of Yorkshire journeys off road and rail and create 1000s of jobs and keep billions of pounds of wealth in the Yorkshire region. Much more than finningley and Yeadon will ever be able to do in their locations.
Those politicians who thought finningley would be an airport for the whole of Yorkshire should have stuck to politics. The whole project revolves around two poorly placed low potential airports becoming one ideally placed airport with huge potential.
But for your project to get off the ground you need these ill informed politicians and they won't get their fingers burnt a second time you are right on that. So this argument is now predicated on closing Yeadon and Finningley, not a snowballs chance of that happening so you would have three airports fighting for the same traffic and you know what Yeadon would win. I work in logistics so I don't profess to be an avaiation expert merely I work in an avaiation related industry and have worked at LHR, LBA and MAN so I will bow to your more expert knowledge if you indeed are in the aviation industry.
I'm not so sure Yeadon would win. CF is going to be an airfield. Could they get in a flybe esque airline to do a CDG? Links air to the IOM? I think people might be shocked even without a link road. I'd love to see.
Do you live in Halifax? Even from Halifax, the far west of region, getting to CF (with an A road from the A1 in time) would be so much quicker and easier than Yeadon or MAN and there wouldn't be the need to go over the top of the pennines (important in winter).
Yes I live in Halifax and over the last few years have flown from LBA, MAN, LPL and EMA whichever was the most suitable to my needs at the time. I had many years driving Halifax to Yeadon so I know the difficulties. I also drive regularly to MAN and I think you are over egging the difficulties, apart from a few occasions I cannot see CF being advantageous, you presume everyone will drive but I tend to use the train to MAN.
Which is quicker train to MAN from Halifax or train to CF station(even before an airport)? Like I say you might be shocked with the ease of getting there even now and so will millions more when they start to use it.
Newcastle is a purely North Eastern airport and pulls very few passengers from Yorkshire. Most people heading to DXB / EWR will go to MAN because of the train and motorway connection. If flights to New York / Dubai were started from CF they would be able to pull from the North East though. CF could pull passengers from all points of the compass to add to the passengers from Yorkshire and the Humber just like MAN does. Leeds is at the crossroads of the urban North. There are so many political obstacles to overcome for CF to be a success but if they were overcome CF would be a money making success for Yorkshire for years to come in exactly the same way MAN is now.
As has been asked are you sure NCL doesn't pull pax from the North of the region, I am no expert in Airline Yields but would EK for example want to fly from NCL, MAN and CF I am not convinced more likely they have the North covered as they are.
And apart from yourself are quite happy with that option.
Ok - changing people's opinions on getting a new airport for Yorkshire will be tough. I give you that.
They are not aviation experts and therefore do not realise LBA is totally inadequate.
No, they perceive it to be perfectly adequate to their needs.
They put up with being diverted and the struggle to get to the airport and assume other destinations are not possible. I give you that.
People in Yorkshire will only realise what they and this county has been missing when a suitable airport is provided.
They already have perfectly suitable airports available and are happy with it, you just don't like the idea that the larger airport is in Manchester.
You say that as a Halifax resident - would you say the same in Hull, York or Grimsby? I love MAN airport but there is no reason why a similar airport could not be developed with easy access for the 5.3 million people who live East of the pennines. It would be a massive boost to the economy this side of the pennines and create 1000s of jobs.
Another issue is that almost half Yorkshires population live in West Yorkshire, not far from LBA, so they wont be asking for another airport if they think it will be further away - that's why CF's location is critically important to the project working.
there is no political will for this project, their is no clamour for this airport, there is no need for this airport and that is why no one is asking for it.
Perhaps not but the airport would be profitable and take millions of Yorkshire journeys off road and rail and create 1000s of jobs and keep billions of pounds of wealth in the Yorkshire region. Much more than finningley and Yeadon will ever be able to do in their locations.
Those politicians who thought finningley would be an airport for the whole of Yorkshire should have stuck to politics. The whole project revolves around two poorly placed low potential airports becoming one ideally placed airport with huge potential.
But for your project to get off the ground you need these ill informed politicians and they won't get their fingers burnt a second time you are right on that. So this argument is now predicated on closing Yeadon and Finningley, not a snowballs chance of that happening so you would have three airports fighting for the same traffic and you know what Yeadon would win. I work in logistics so I don't profess to be an avaiation expert merely I work in an avaiation related industry and have worked at LHR, LBA and MAN so I will bow to your more expert knowledge if you indeed are in the aviation industry.
I'm not so sure Yeadon would win. CF is going to be an airfield. Could they get in a flybe esque airline to do a CDG? Links air to the IOM? I think people might be shocked even without a link road. I'd love to see.
Do you live in Halifax? Even from Halifax, the far west of region, getting to CF (with an A road from the A1 in time) would be so much quicker and easier than Yeadon or MAN and there wouldn't be the need to go over the top of the pennines (important in winter).
Yes I live in Halifax and over the last few years have flown from LBA, MAN, LPL and EMA whichever was the most suitable to my needs at the time. I had many years driving Halifax to Yeadon so I know the difficulties. I also drive regularly to MAN and I think you are over egging the difficulties, apart from a few occasions I cannot see CF being advantageous, you presume everyone will drive but I tend to use the train to MAN.
Which is quicker train to MAN from Halifax or train to CF station(even before an airport)? Like I say you might be shocked with the ease of getting there even now and so will millions more when they start to use it.
Newcastle is a purely North Eastern airport and pulls very few passengers from Yorkshire. Most people heading to DXB / EWR will go to MAN because of the train and motorway connection. If flights to New York / Dubai were started from CF they would be able to pull from the North East though. CF could pull passengers from all points of the compass to add to the passengers from Yorkshire and the Humber just like MAN does. Leeds is at the crossroads of the urban North. There are so many political obstacles to overcome for CF to be a success but if they were overcome CF would be a money making success for Yorkshire for years to come in exactly the same way MAN is now.
As has been asked are you sure NCL doesn't pull pax from the North of the region, I am no expert in Airline Yields but would EK for example want to fly from NCL, MAN and CF I am not convinced more likely they have the North covered as they are.
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Denis Thatcher
Denis Thatcher was once reported as saying something along the lines of the following when asked why he never gave interviews or expressed a view on UK/World issues.
"If most people already think you are stupid, then its best not to say anything least it might confirms their views"
Leeds Approach, i have never read so much drivel on PPrune about airport operations and airlines, your complete lack of even a basic understanding of economics, demographic, social groups is staggering to say the least, i have no wish to be rude or offend you personally in anyway, i appreciate your enthusiasm for Yorkshire and i know its cold,dark and snowy, but catch a train to Manchester airport and spend the day there, or LHR/LGW, fly to CDG/AMS/FRA look at airline operations, the people who fly, where they go and then spend the day at Leeds Bradford international and do the same, you'll then maybe just maybe start to understand why LBA/CF will never ever get close to the scale of operations of MAN, Leeds will likely not exceed 5m in the next 10 years
If anyone needs to explain to you why, then I'm afraid you won't understand the answer.
"If most people already think you are stupid, then its best not to say anything least it might confirms their views"
Leeds Approach, i have never read so much drivel on PPrune about airport operations and airlines, your complete lack of even a basic understanding of economics, demographic, social groups is staggering to say the least, i have no wish to be rude or offend you personally in anyway, i appreciate your enthusiasm for Yorkshire and i know its cold,dark and snowy, but catch a train to Manchester airport and spend the day there, or LHR/LGW, fly to CDG/AMS/FRA look at airline operations, the people who fly, where they go and then spend the day at Leeds Bradford international and do the same, you'll then maybe just maybe start to understand why LBA/CF will never ever get close to the scale of operations of MAN, Leeds will likely not exceed 5m in the next 10 years
If anyone needs to explain to you why, then I'm afraid you won't understand the answer.
Gentlemen, this is getting personal. As I said in an earlier thread, I would love to see a decent regional airport, with long haul routes, in Yorkshire but I find it difficult to see how we achieve it. This is a forum for debate - not attacking people because your view is different.
If you want to call LA to account I suggest you don't get personal and provide the solid evidence for your side of the argument (that has been sadly lacking in some posts) that you keep demanding from him.
If you want to call LA to account I suggest you don't get personal and provide the solid evidence for your side of the argument (that has been sadly lacking in some posts) that you keep demanding from him.
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[Oh and isn’t MAN in Cheshire??]
And, give or take a couple of zeroes on the end of the numbers, the reasons why a Thames Estuary airport isn't going to happen are the same as the reasons why CF International won't either.
As has also been said hindsight is the only exact science, Heathrow would not have been built where it was, Manchester and Liverpool would have built on the former 5 runway USAAF base at Burtonwood and Yeadon would not be the airport for Leeds but there it is and despite your desperate wish for it to change it won't.
With hindsight, the rwys should have been parallel not intersecting, but in 1946 no one foresaw that future aircraft would be able to land and takeoff in cross winds, or that LHR would become so busy. Also in hindsight, much more of the open land around LHR should have been safeguarded, and new rwys built sooner.
"If most people already think you are stupid, then its best not to say anything least it might confirms their views"
Yes it [Heathrow] would have been built there, in 1946 it was ideal. The problem is not the location: on flat land, 20 mi. west of London, 6 rwys already there (built by the RAF), on a trunk road, room for expansion, etc., etc.
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At risk of pouring petrol onto the Leeds Approach fire I will point out just how far off beam he is with regards the politics of all this.
There has been much written recently about the 'Northern Powerhouse' and what this actually means to those of us up here.
Many see this as an acknowledgment that we need a very area with very good connections to counterbalance London.
This highly connected area would benefit from a more centralised economic model with an economy benefitted from agglomeration - the marvellous 'Mind the Gap' BBC Two - Mind the Gap: London v the Rest, Episode 1 explained how this works in London and could be replicated elsewhere if investment was directed in a manner to stimulate that economic agglomeration.
What has this to do with CF and Leeds Approach you may ask?
Well, as has started to be made clear in the media, what the treasury means by Northern Powerhouse is very much building a strong economy around Manchester and linking in other cities across the north into that economy such that they have specialised companies with very good connections to Manc and are able to exploit the new economic opportunities brought by agglomeration. George Osborne vowed to revitalise the cities of the North ? but have the benefits been shared fairly? - Home News - UK - The Independent talks about this for example.
So, with the prevailing winds in the treasury seeking to focus investment in Manchester and connections to Manchester, the reality is that in the future we will see more and improved connections from across the north to MAN as a priority, the government see building up the airport, along with other infrastructure in and around the city as a way of boosting economic agglomeration that in turn spreads across the north as connections from Manc to other towns and cities are improved.
The idea of developing CF at the expense of Manc is not just neutral to current political thinking, it is actively going against the political will in the treasury for focusing investment on single pieces of infrastructure for the north, (typically in Manchester) and then linking the rest of the north to that piece of infrastructure.
Spreading the investment thin has not worked, focused investment is the future in the north.
There has been much written recently about the 'Northern Powerhouse' and what this actually means to those of us up here.
Many see this as an acknowledgment that we need a very area with very good connections to counterbalance London.
This highly connected area would benefit from a more centralised economic model with an economy benefitted from agglomeration - the marvellous 'Mind the Gap' BBC Two - Mind the Gap: London v the Rest, Episode 1 explained how this works in London and could be replicated elsewhere if investment was directed in a manner to stimulate that economic agglomeration.
What has this to do with CF and Leeds Approach you may ask?
Well, as has started to be made clear in the media, what the treasury means by Northern Powerhouse is very much building a strong economy around Manchester and linking in other cities across the north into that economy such that they have specialised companies with very good connections to Manc and are able to exploit the new economic opportunities brought by agglomeration. George Osborne vowed to revitalise the cities of the North ? but have the benefits been shared fairly? - Home News - UK - The Independent talks about this for example.
So, with the prevailing winds in the treasury seeking to focus investment in Manchester and connections to Manchester, the reality is that in the future we will see more and improved connections from across the north to MAN as a priority, the government see building up the airport, along with other infrastructure in and around the city as a way of boosting economic agglomeration that in turn spreads across the north as connections from Manc to other towns and cities are improved.
The idea of developing CF at the expense of Manc is not just neutral to current political thinking, it is actively going against the political will in the treasury for focusing investment on single pieces of infrastructure for the north, (typically in Manchester) and then linking the rest of the north to that piece of infrastructure.
Spreading the investment thin has not worked, focused investment is the future in the north.
I wouldn't read too much about Manc v AN Other airport into the Northern powerhouse proposal.
Like HS2, the transport infrastructure stuff is mostly about relief for overloaded Victorian railways.
Like HS2, the transport infrastructure stuff is mostly about relief for overloaded Victorian railways.
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Quote:
[Oh and isn’t MAN in Cheshire??]
Indeed it is!
[Oh and isn’t MAN in Cheshire??]
Indeed it is!
The rest of the MAN Airport lies within the boundary of the City of Manchester
Now back to Church Fenton and its giant jetport .....
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You mancs don't half keep this thread on Yorkshire International airport bubbling along!
The Govt. want all sorts to happen but ultimately it is the people that decide. Where there is a demand for a better product it is only a matter of time for that product to be provided - fast trains or no trains. Just like with the tour de france. An airport at Church Fenton will help the Northern Powerhouse. I believe it is only a matter of time before the first domino falls as regards Yorkshire having a central, well connected airport of potential. Perhaps the first domino has fallen. If you google 'new airport for Leeds' there are a few interesting stories from a year ago. The East Leeds Parkway rail station is an interesting development too.
The Govt. want all sorts to happen but ultimately it is the people that decide. Where there is a demand for a better product it is only a matter of time for that product to be provided - fast trains or no trains. Just like with the tour de france. An airport at Church Fenton will help the Northern Powerhouse. I believe it is only a matter of time before the first domino falls as regards Yorkshire having a central, well connected airport of potential. Perhaps the first domino has fallen. If you google 'new airport for Leeds' there are a few interesting stories from a year ago. The East Leeds Parkway rail station is an interesting development too.