Former RAF Church Fenton

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by BKS Air Transport

In the past, the lack of the M60 and a railway station was never a barrier to MAN developing.

6 million people had no other airport go to. Yorkshire people naturally went to MAN because Yeadon was built on a hill with a short runway. It was insufficient then and it still is.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by Ringwayman

Perhaps you could help us here. How much money was spent of sorting out Finningley to make it fit for civil use, and what was it spent on?

I don't know and I don't care. I think it was 2 jags that gave permission for it. That should tell you all you need to know.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by BKS Air Transport

In the past, the lack of the M60 and a railway station was never a barrier to MAN developing.

What this shows though is that as airports get busier better transport links have to be provided. This is what would happen at church fenton.

[Ringwayman]

I don't know and I don't care

That is laughable. It's a direct comparison. Finningley being a former RAF base converted to civilian use and you are proposing converting a former RAF base into civilian use. Do you not think that it would be relevant?

[LAX_LHR]

I don't know and I don't care

And hence why I have said it is hard to debate with you.


When the questions are asked, its either the above type of response, or, just whittle out the 'population' card.


You have started a debate but now getting arsey at the questions.


This is why I said it is being set up as a 1 sided debate, you want all of the pro's discussed but not the cons.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by Ringwayman

Perhaps you could help us here. How much money was spent of sorting out Finningley to make it fit for civil use, and what was it spent on?

Found out the figure: £80 million from the Telegraph.

Note this paragraph:

"David Ryall, the managing director, said: "We are aiming to become the 'airport of choice' east of the Pennines for passengers and airlines alike. We hope to achieve that goal within the next five years, if not sooner."

I think it is safe to say they wanted to be the big Yorkshire Airport. But airlines have voted with their feet.

It was never going to happen there. Simply because it is too far away from west Yorkshire and people from Sheffield use MAN / EMA / LBA. They should have consulted me. Completely different story for church fenton.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by Ringwayman

That is laughable. It's a direct comparison. Finningley being a former RAF base converted to civilian use and you are proposing converting a former RAF base into civilian use. Do you not think that it would be relevant?

But I'm not interested in what church fenton will cost. I'm interested in aviation not economics. What I am saying is there will never be a better opportunity or location to develop an airport that well serves the whole of Yorkshire.

[LAX_LHR]

But I'm not interested in what church fenton will cost. I'm interested in aviation not economics

So in other words, you want the fantasy airport but none of the harsh realities that come with it?


I'm sorry, but to get your fantasy airport, the above NEED to be taken into account.


Without it, this is just a nonsense thread that avoids the point. I'm afraid nearly everything in life comes down to cost. If there is no ROI, then there is no project.


You can't just plonk a nice, big, shiny, new multi runway airport down without any costings taken into account.


This thread has now gone into the joke category.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by LAX_LHR

So in other words, you want the fantasy airport but none of the harsh realities that come with it?


I'm sorry, but to get your fantasy airport, the above NEED to be taken into account.


Without it, this is just a nonsense thread that avoids the point. I'm afraid nearly everything in life comes down to cost. If there is no ROI, then there is no project.


You can't just plonk a nice, big, shiny, new multi runway airport down without any costings taken into account.


This thread has now gone into the joke category.

I always try to argue my point without becoming offensive. Just for the record church fenton has been bought by a businessman who intends to use it as an airfield. Lets all just watch this joke develop.

[Airbanda]

As I said previously this would only work as a Govt mandated airport move like those done at Belfast and Glasgow in fifties/sixties. Such things have happened more recently in Europe (Oslo or was it Stockholm?) but Berlin got in a real mess over it's new airport.

In current economic situation, with LBA a private business, EU competition law now and TTIP on the horizon such things are not going to happen in UK.

Better to focus on incremental gains at LBA. How long have we been talking of improving the 14 ILS and what might be done to improve 32 for CAT III approaches that float on the 'bump'?

[Homo Simpson]

Oh dear this really has now entered the completely daft zone! Church Fenton is not going to become a commercial airport. Your comment about not being interested in the economics only in aviation shows exactly why you no nothing about the airline industry. It's all about the economics of it and nothing to do with spotter fantasies.
Despite people on here putting forward a whole raft of reasons or questions you are blindly ignoring them and can't see past your dream of some more exotic tails!
The same nonsense was spouted by the developers of Finningly and it's been a failure in most people's eyes.
As has been said Leeds can grow but not to anything more than small regional airport size and CF would need millions spent on it for proper commercial operations and that isn't going to happen.

[Ringwayman]

CF would need millions spent on it for proper commercial operations and that isn't going to happen.

As if to reinforce this, the Church Fenton runway is some 500m shorter than LBA. LBA has to be replace because it's got too short a runway so let's say we need a runway approx 8200 feet or 2.5km long (a 12% increase) to that so more 6 or 7 hour flights can be handled with a full payload. Birmingham's spent £33m on extending their runway 400m. I've added 750m or so to the Church Fenton runway so based on the BHX spend. that's going to be £50m to £60m just on that cost. Where do we start on the other facilities?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Double whammy day eh! New airport for Yorkshire and manu lose.

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH

Just for the record church fenton has been bought by a businessman who intends to use it as an airfield.

Airfield, yes. International Airport, no. Being a businessman, I'm sure he has no interest in a costly war for passengers with LBA.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Originally Posted by Andy_S

Airfield, yes. International Airport, no. Being a businessman, I'm sure he has no interest in a costly war for passengers with LBA.

After 8 times round the hold before ending up at Teesside passengers will make their own minds up. Who really knows what might happen? From little acorns mighty oak trees grow.

[LAX_LHR]

I always try to argue my point without becoming offensive. Just for the record church fenton has been bought by a businessman who intends to use it as an airfield. Lets all just watch this joke develop

Where was I being offensive?


I also meant this thread is now a joke. You seem to want this fantastic airport just parachuted in without taking into account any of the realities that go with it.


The chance to take this topic seriously diminished when you said 'I don't care about the economics' and then started taking the Michael.


If you want a serious discussion, you need to talk about the serious points like costings, forecasts and potential ROI.


Somehow, I don't see that information forthcoming from you.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I struggle to see what is so difficult to understand. I am talking purely about location and airfield qualities. That is why cf has huge potential. If you want to debate as to whether some company would fund it then go for it. My point is why it is so much better than yeadon in terms of location accessibility and airfield potential.

[David Thompson]

There are now three threads about Church Fenton on this forum and this link featuring an interview with the new owner is from one of them ; Farmer Reopens Former RAF Base as Airport | Forces TV .
If needs be replay it a few times LEEDS APPROACH and I'm sure you will hear the owner say that he intends it to become a GA airfield with the possibility of some biz jet traffic and not , not a commercial airport . He obviously has quite deep pockets to have bought it in the first place but he would need millions , probably hundreds of millions , to turn it into a fully functioning airport . Has as been pointed out several times now it will never happen , never ever so just be grateful that Chris Makin has stepped forward to save flying at Church Fenton and come down off your hobby horse and let common sense prevail . Possibly ?

[EI-BUD]

This suggestion is complete pie in the sky;

1. As pointed out earlier if LBA were to close to make way for this facility the cost to buy out LBA would be enormous. In effect the project would be more than the cost to build 2 airports.

2. If the new airport opened in competition with LBA , the cash burn in the period they attracted business it would be very costly and challenging. Equally, the rivalry between the 2 would result in much reduced fees to the airlines, thus making the profit equation even more challenging. The level of working capital that would be required to keep this venture afloat would be staggering.

3. And as pointed out by other posters very wisely the lessons of history and the sheer volume of airports struggling for survival would scare investors and financial institutions away. Examples include BLK, MME, DSA, PIK, MSE and so on.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

British airways ba9629 ... Church fenton ... Final call

But go on ... can't you just imagine it?

You stare at the monitor in the departure lounge. And finally it happens. The words 'GO TO GATE' appear alongside your flight number. Destination: CHURCH FENTON. As you file through the departure gate, you just hear the BRITISH AIRWAYS gate staff put out the 'final call' for all remaining passengers. The cabin staff politely urge all passengers to take their seats. This flight to Church Fenton will be completely full today! Then you push back, start engines and taxi towards the holding point.

Later, after a smooth and pleasant cruise, the seatbelt sign illuminates. The first officer has just informed the passengers over the PA that Church Fenton is sunny and warm today, there is just a slight breeze on approach. The packed airliner descends over Yorkshire's green fields. Then it intercepts and establishes on final approach. A couple of minutes later, a gentle bump as the undercarriage meets the tarmac at CHURCH FENTON and a loud roar ensues as reverse thrust is engaged pushing everybody forward in their seats.

The airliner, its BA livery resplendent in the bright Yorkshire sunshine, taxis to a halt on the apron and the doors are swung open. Yorkshire awaits!

OK. That could never happen, could it? Except on 9th June 1985. When it actually did happen! The flight was BA9629 operated by Manchester stalwart BAe 1-11 G-AVMM. I was one of the 99 lucky punters aboard as it visited Church Fenton for airshow day. In the evening it flew us all back to Manchester as well.

So it wasn't just a fantasy. A BA airliner really could fly a full complement of pax to Church Fenton. But, make no mistake, it would be a one-off special if it were to ever happen again. Because the odds of Church Fenton being developed as a serious commercial airport are ZERO. For all the reasons amply outlined by the contributors above. Sorry about that.

Grand place for an airshow though!

EDIT: Why does PPRuNe software remove selected capital letters from the title line?