LGW BA lite
 

Good afternoon!

Does anyone have any information on what’s happening with the LGW arm of BA with the votes etc yet?

Also what the T&C that was offered?

Oh dear !
 

..According to Head for Points today - Headline - "Exclusive: British Airways could close Gatwick short-haul after BALPA pulls pilot ballot."

https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/0...ck-short-haul/

We wondered why our tame BA bloke looked a bit glum in the pub last night.

...

Well done BALPA 👏

The sticking point was the protection clause linking contract agreements between pilots at LHR and LGW. BA rejected this showing the truth that BA wants to split the pilot group and a weaker workforce at LGW. Glad BALPA stopped this, let them pull out.

LGW is one of the most important airports in London and therefore the world, if BA pull out and sell there slots they will be purchased very quickly by a competitor, my presumption is that more of these slots will be purchased by the orange airline than the pink one. They raised 1.7 billion dollars in cash to strengthen there grasp in their fortress airports, they will do anything for those available slots.

COVID 19 is passing and things are looking better everyday, it’s better for BA to pull out and let the already better paying competitor take over than to divide and conquer the pilot group to push down terms and conditions permanently. At the end of the day these slots need to be flown by jets and those jets need pilots, especially now when those pilots need to be British nationals there is not the possibility of outsourcing cheaper labour on dubious contracts in foreign lands. BALPA knows this and made the right decision.

I agree this looks like a good call by BALPA but I’m not at all sure that observation about British nationals is correct.

Replace British nationals with "Those pilots that have a valid UK work permit which includes those non-British nationals with settled status prior to 31st December. However, does not include Europeans (and other nationalities) seeking work in the UK for the first time. Unless they apply for a work permit which will not be possible in any industry for which there is no shortage of qualified professionals". A bit of a mouthful, but can't be put into a simple word or phrase unfortunately.

CW247
:ok:
A lot of devil in that particular bit of detail…but it is certainly not a case of jobs for British nationals only.

My guess is that this will run on for a bit now, BA could quite easily decide to go ahead with another company and simply crew the flying side of it with temporary secondments from LHR, if the terms are right there will be plenty of takers from those who were based there before covid. The annual savings of the pilot contract vs what was in place at LGW before was apparently only 2 million so chicken feed in the grand scheme. I can't see them pulling out completely.

So BA pull out of LGW take my job away sending me to LHR/CRS/PRP and now want me to temporarily go back to LGW whilst they ( possibly I) train up my replacement.
Not very tempting.

Pardon my ignorance but does BA - Lite just cover the Airbuses that aren't flying from Gatwick or does it include the Long haul 777s as well ?

Just short haul

Playing devils advocate here, but if the unions and BA don't see eye to eye, doesn't that pave the way for BA to end their short haul operation out of LGW? I can't imagine IAG would be willing to surrender slots and see them fall into the hands of easyJet and especially Wizz, so if things end in stalemate, what are the odds of a new operator being established to take over the network and crews being TUPE'd across? LEVEL perhaps?

Think thats exactly the point. For once its good to see Balpa stand their ground. I wish the Balpa reps for the other airlines did the same, showed a bit of teeth, rather than always give in and then praise themselves for not sure what really.

Stand your ground and don’t let BA into gatwick, that will be a K.O espec with long haul restrictions more fragile than short haul!

Would a stalemate with the unions potentially add yet more pilots to the current surplus caused by the pandemic, should BA elect to permanently end their short-haul operation at LGW?

Could it be a case of the lesser of two evils here? BA operates a much leaner short-haul operation at LGW with inferior terms for crew or BA close their branded short-haul operation at LGW permanently. The cynic within me suspects BA has tactically chosen now as the time to announce their LGW plans. Allow the dust to settle from the initial shock from the pandemic and try to steamroll this proposal through and at a time when BALPA doesn't have much leverage to exploit at the negotiating table.

It's not just BA (Lite). All Airlines in general speak are seeking to do as such. I would suggest this not to be an unusual thing, its business - just as flight crew all leaving said companies for better offers when things improve is just business.

Mister Geezer

Balpa keep saying there is no leverage, however I think this is the perfect leverage. And once they allow BA to get away with this you can be sure others will do the same as it creates precedent. I think Balpa have more leverage as it would be surprising to see BA let go of LGW and give way to losing their slots at a time when things are picking up for short haul (and likely long haul with US in Nov and AUS in Dec)

If BA do elect to terminate shorthaul at LGW, will they (whenever life gets back to "normal" maybe next summer) have enough slots at LHR to grow the European business back to the size it was ? Or is this a Machiavellian move to get rid of the old BCal once and for all and put a different IAG carrier based at LGW ?

If BA Lite doesn't include the longhaul they will effectively be running two airlines at LGW anyway.

Mister Geezer

would the pilots in LHR and in the pool allow them to do that. Remember they have the crew for this operation already, to start a new airline with new crew would seriously anger the pilot group especially I would be if I were in their position and possibly lead to strikes. Bringing in a new brand for LGW is the same as outsourcing and would be a serious case for industrial action.

In my opinion BA pilot group and BALPA should hold out. We are talking about LGW here one of the most in demand markets in the world their is money to be made in this market. Their is a reason why Wizz and easy are banging on the door to get in the market and BA know this they don’t want to lose their position their. They say the have been loss making at LGW for 20 years which is hard to believe but if it’s true than why would they stick around there for that long if they don’t see the value in the market space.

CW247

Pilots are on the Tier 2 skilled list, as long as earning over £60k-ish for a 39 hour week (it comes out to around £30/hour).

I would assume that EU crew in the UK would include experienced First Officers at the bulk of airlines, so no need to be British.

There are (more limited) opportunities in the other direction too, although due to Ryanair's conditions, not with FR.

Time to blame those pesky pilots.

British Airways scraps plans to reintroduce short-haul flights from Gatwick post-COVID
http://news.sky.com/story/british-ai...covid-12415115

It's a pity the BALPA Ryanair counsel couldn't display the same resolve, their capitulation has had ramifications all over

lostinspace89

"Other Airlines" - are there many AOC's left in the UK? Sadly after CV19 with the exception of DHL Air perhaps, BALPA are going to struggle to have any leeway

IAG to buy EasyJet UK.

A320LGW

Are BALPA helping Ryanair with their PTSD or somesuch?

If Ezy Uk was a separate company from the rest it could be possible. But it’s not so pretty unlikely. But who knows these days? Would be better than Wizz!

why would IAG buy just the UK part?. I am sure they would be more than happy to buy the lot at the right price.

Forgive me if I am missing something here but I am struggling to see why people are rejoicing at BALPA turning their backs on BA. At the end of the day, smaller airlines need less staff. Perhaps it's a game of brinkmanship at play here, which the union and its members are prepared for. However, if this is not the case, then I struggle to see that there is anything worth getting excited about a significantly smaller BA and at a time when there are hundreds of BA pilots who have either been made redundant or who are on unpaid leave that is being subsidised by their colleagues.

While I do not know the exact details of this story, sometimes it is better to take a hit on the number of jobs than to accept constant reduction in pay just to keep jobs.

Again, not all the details, so there might be even more valid reasons to say no, but a erosion of T&E hits all pilots and sometimes it is better to take the job löss.

I think the point was that BA basically wanted the right to do whatever they wanted to the LGW BA contracts without the need to consult Balpa. What’s the point of separating a workforce and then eroding the conditions as they like when they like?. We’ve already seen them do this at easyjet where because Balpa gave way there are people with loads of different contracts (instead of having everyone reduce like most uk airlines did) and Ez not having any intention of bringing anyone back to original contracts but instead introduce UBer like temp contracts when they need more pilots , hopefully this wont be allowed but depends on Balpa to show some strength. It ends up creating resentment against colleagues and the union. The clue is in the title: Union

I think competition between airlines can only improve pilot salaries especially if there is a shortage. What BALPA needs to do now is a concerted campaign to keep British jobs for UK licence holders like EASA/FAA jurisdictions seem to.

All you need to do is look at the state of Iberia to get and idea of what IAG want to do with BA , a leopard doesn’t change his spots . Iberia SH and LH has been farmed out to several parts of the “group” , LGW Lite is only the tip of the iceberg and would set a dangerous precedent. Well done to BALPA on this occasion

Indeed, well done BALPA, and you should all be proud. It'll never catch on in many parts of the world, but at least you've kicked the fools in BA management into touch for the time being. We all know what these crafty buggers would really like, and indeed, we see it at Iberia and elsewhere. They just can't help themselves.

Speaking as a passenegr/customer I have a couple of questions

1 At what point does British Airways stop becoming British

2 At what point is BA 2021 so different from its predecessors that it is just trading on the brand name without the service and operational competence the brand was built .

Some thing that seems common in todays business world is to rely entirely on an established brand while weakening the product to save costs , Before long people do notice this and they dont like it and the much vaunted Brand is devalued to the point it becomes almost a liability. I though BA had learned their lesson from 20 years ago when they cabin crewed the LGW long haul leisure routes with agency/outsourced staff.-who were very clealry not BA.

In the wider world Waitrose v Lidl is a good example , 20 years ago if you bought your food from Waitrose Lidl was just some upstart , but lots of people found out that in many areas Waitrose charged premium prices for products that were no better than Lidl ones ( some obviously are still better quality of course ) . While it has not put Waitrose out of business it has badly hurt them, they are cutting back while LIDL and their German cousin Aldi keep expanding. .

I thought the new BA CEO ) was keen on restoring BA s values, but from reading this thread that too seems to smoke and mirrors.. , Cruz was basically a disaster from a branding and service view point, ( For which Walsh should have got sacked for employing him) . Either way good luck to the BA staff caught in the middle of all this

Another own goal by Balpa. Easyjet will just expand further into the BA market.
The bid line Barons are still running the show.

So who is going to do the BA short haul work ex LGW - Iberia, Vueling, EI or BA?

A320LGW

Perhaps a little unfair. The Ryr council and union is still very young, it was the first time they went through such a process and ryr had in effect started the redundancy process on over 340 jobs.

Now seeing how ryr are totally taking the mick out the agreement I think should this happen again, it maybe wiser to let the company lay people off in order to not get another haircut.

Otherwise the ramifications industry wide are just too great.

RudderTrimZero

He isn’t running the show!

Lets Hope Balpa stood their ground and do not give in to diminishing terms or different contracts to those that LHR. Would just set precedent. I doubt BA would ever give way those slots at lgw.

Is the offer any better really than the first one?

Have Balpa agreed to the new terms? Hope they’re better and not worse than LHR terms