Working Life After Flying
 

As the implications of the current crisis begin to emerge, no doubt many of us are taking stock of our positions and considering what outcomes might mean for us and our families. When I - personally - try and imagine a worst case scenario facing me - i.e. compulsory redundancy on statutory terms, I’m at a loss about what to do next. I was fortunate to embark on a flying career shortly after leaving university, so my only experiences other work have been fairly menial - and my degree itself is could be described as mediocre and specifically related to aviation.

I wonder if there’s anyone still lurking here that has left a career in flying - either voluntarily or otherwise - that would mind sharing their story - successful or otherwise - about finding gainful employment thereafter. Perhaps some of us here can draw on these posts - not only as a source of positivity and hope - but as a potential source of ideas, too. It seems particularly difficult to divert attention away from the worries ahead - and so instead of worrying about things that are currently beyond my control, I want to try and focus that attention more productively. I for one am grateful for any contributions.

I know this does’t specifically relate to the ‘Terms and Endearment’ we all face in our current positions - but I dare say that is where the target audience may well be lurking. If there’s a more important place for it then I apologise.

I tried that with my 'career advice for pilots' thread a week or so ago. Queue lots of burying heads in sand, anger, and eventually the thread has disappeared off Rumours and News thanks to the moderators.

Good luck to all.

After the Thomas Cook collapse last year, a few guys decided to jack it in and do either something they had done in the past or pursue something new. At least 2 have gone for financial services, a couple back to LA Instructing, consultancy for CRM and a few more avenues I can't remember. The problem is that not many alternatives pay even close to a SFO's salary let alone a Captains, but needs must etc. and I doubt many will miss the working environment of 21st century aviation.

As someone like stacks staring down the barrel of it going.

I've an HGV licence so I’m filling out the form to renew my tacho card. Provided (big if) I can find driving work not having driven a lorry for years then I can bring in some money. I’ve done it before it’s hard work and you’re treated like dirt but it’s a job. But beyond that no idea, I’m middle aged, been in flying twenty years, no degree, nothing else. Rabbit in headlights.

i just don't know.

Voluntary work involving driving is good for the interim. Generally one receives reimbursement for mileage, and possibly mobile, It is a good way to keep busy, and allows one to demonstrate at interview that you have done something constructive with your time. And it can be rewarding spiritually, just to do good for others. (I am not preaching religion here, btw)

Of course, there's always Netflix...

Don't forget your CPC as well. PM me if you need help with that.

I lost my job. I've only 1500 TT, most on the 73. I've been looking at getting the HGV licence and going down that route. I've an engineering degree but it's aviation related. Every job I've worked for the last number of years was in aviation so it's been very difficult to make the CV enticing to what little jobs might be available. Anyone else have any good recommendations?

Since HGV driving seems to continually get mentioned here, what is the market like at the moment for HGV drivers?

I had just presumed there would have been a glut of drivers on the market, what with much of industry around the world closed. In the past it hasn't always been that easy to get a start driving if you do not have some sort of experience.
Like most others on here i'm a one trick pony type of guy. All my employment "plan B's" seem to have disappeared in the last month.

Ive been trying for a HGV job for the past month or so. There is nothing.

I thought that might be the case. Tough times.

32 years of professional flying... Now relearning woodwork and cabinet making which I enjoyed immensely as a teenager! Hope to still have my flying job of course but I'll let y'all know in six months.

Very best to all of you for the future:ok:

Likewise. I can do what I did before flying, which is television broadcasting - things like BBC, BT or SKY football, horse racing etc.

However, that has all stopped as well. Doh ! Bugger ! :ugh:

Good luck people; hang in there :ok:
.

Thanks, much appreciated. I had completed my CPC when made redundant before 6 years ago and returned to it. It expired so I need to do the 35 hours again. I’ve just read you can do courses online but only until June time.

Passion
 

When a grad student asked Warren Buffet what industry they should consider for the future, he responded that they should follow their passion not a job. For many of us aviation was the passion but I'm sure it's not the only passion - often there is a second and/or even third choice. I was fortunate in that after 30 years of aviation, i could fall back to my other passion which was IT where I maintained currency/awareness during my aviation career. Heaven for me would be to marry the two but beyond the cockpit, innovation and deployment of technology can be very slow in the aviation sector - I haven't given up :8.

A degree or an ATPL infers the ability to learn and when coupled to the desire to adapt, no option should be off the table. In the IT world there are specific technology courses available and highly accredited certifications in demand areas which includes everything from help desk support as a starting point to full stack development, or even project coordination/management where experiential analytical skills, structure and process can be applied (for less technically inclined). Remember this - no matter what the technology framework, we will be increasingly storing massive amounts of data - 1) big data and AI, we will need to move it around - 2) Networking and finally all the data, networks and infrastructure must be secure - 3) Security. There are courses and certifications in all of these areas.

I've been lucky but even though it is no longer my career, i am truly saddened by the pain in the sector for all those who were and remain as passionate about aviation as myself. The very best of luck to all of you and blue skies.

Drive trains. No debt and up to 70k plus operator depending

Pornostar....maybe????

Train Driver here. Circa 61k for our company when qualified, 14-18 months of training. I know drivers who have grossed 6 figures with overtime etc. Was doing my commercial ratings for flying and grateful to have a career on the railway. Don’t just do it for the money. All driver training training stopped currently and recruitment for Trainee Drivers frozen. Not a career you can ‘just walk into’.
Good luck.
PM if anyone wants more details.

ive just done mine online, was actually a decent course.

I know a friend who went for train driver job but think it’s highly competitive to get especially for ‘outsiders’.

All though not redundant yet think I’ll be lucky to get through this and also a one trick pony.

If UK based checkout https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/ they’ve got quite a few free courses and since it’s linked to the government website believe there’s credibility to them. I’ve been doing an Excel course and hope to do more courses from there. Something extra to put on the CV instead of just flying.

Surely we’ve got to have developed some skills over the years relevant to the outside world of employment.

Hi everyone, long time lurker and first time poster!

First of all let me say how sorry I am to hear what you're all going through at the moment. It must be dreadful and I can't begin to imagine how stressful this all is.

I got into train driving after university as the pilot idea slipped further and further into the realm of dreams. I worked for the railway while I was a student to pay for my tuition fees, so I already had a vague understanding what driving entailed. Definitely something I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone wishing to enter a new profession. After a few years of keeping a clean licence, no operational incidents etc I was lucky enough to be offered a job with what was then Virgin Trains East Coast (now LNER) and I can honestly say I've never looked back. We're currently on a 4 day, 35 hour week and where I'm based the basic salary is about £75k. Like my driver colleague above mentioned, with a little overtime then hitting 6 figures certainly isn't an impossibility. Add to that the final salary pension, free rail travel/parking benefits and it suddenly adds up to a good package. I do a little bit of overtime here and there and I got just under £91k last year. I understand nothing can beat the flying bug and that you haven't invested all that money to walk away and drive trains. Apart from the odd moment where I'm doing a prep (similar to your walk-arounds) and the sight of an A380 holding above the depot evokes a little jealousy, I can honestly say I can't be happier with this job and what it has done for my life.

I understand it won't appeal to all, but I'll happily reply to any PMs if you want any more information.

Best of luck to everyone.

I feel for all you guys who have or will loose your dream jobs but the answer may be in your hands. I left BA IN 1982 and successfully ran a charter company for 30 years so I know a bit about the financial side of the business. The main problem is the fixed overhead is too high. How to get this down? The Staff own the airline, that is the answer. Staff costs come from profits only.
in 9 months there will never be a better time to start an airline. Cheap leases, loads of good pilots.
So if you want not only to fly but own an airline sign up.
cheers
Air Apparent

^^^^^^^
His inbox is full because he’s a new poster.

Truth be told, any job worth having will be in short supply right now.

Personally I’m thinking about Uber when the lockdown eases a little, low start up costs and just carry a hammer in case the fare tries to mug you. What’s not to like .

realECMdriver and Train2Plane I suspect your inboxes are full partly because you’re new (at least newly registered!) but probably a few of us jumping at the offer of info.

I’ll bet there are a few on here, myself included, that are tremendously interested in more of what you have to say!!

Maybe let us know when your inboxes are clear if the offer stands, or write more in public?!

Anyone seriously interested in driving trains be prepared to train for a year or so (varies a lot) on a trainee rate which us variable but mainly around the 30k mark . Free travel five day weekends every three weeks final salary pension and a stress free secure job with a fantastic union behind you.

Head to railforums where there's a wealth of info. Trainee roles are common around London so book mark the companies career listings

Yes, I'm afraid so. I'm trying to keep it empty for as long as possible so keep trying and I'll get back to you!

I hear driver training is being paused for now while the regulatory bodies decide on how classroom and practical training can be done with the minimum of risk. I'd say for anyone interested, start polishing the CVs and hone your interview skills and prepare some answers that will have the recruitment/management team smiling. You've all, without a doubt, had some invaluable experience when it comes to the ABCs like teamwork, safety management, following rules and procedures etc.

So think back and try and recall as much detail about any event you can as they WILL pick apart everything you say and ask things like 'How did that make you feel?

Why did you do it? Was it the right thing to do? Basically STAR method 'Situation, Task, Action, Response' and they'll probe further and do things like ask you the same questions twice to see if you've picked up on it and whether you stick to your guns and give the same response. Hope this is helpful.

For an insight into pay and conditions etc. for the various Train Operating Companies (TOC) and Freight Operating Companies (FOC) google;

Aslef Company Informtion

Aslef is our Union, as I am sure some of you are aware and are probably one of the strongest unions going.
Trainee rate at our TOC is just shy of 30k, once qualified for year 1 you are on 80% of full pay, year 2 90% of full pay and it’s not until year 3 you are on 100%.
Also as mentioned in a previous post, head to Rail UK Forums.... similar set up to Pprune but all railway related.
Trying to keep my inbox free also.

There are a lot of us train drivers who initially wanted a flying career but saw the cost and moved our ambitions to the railways. I did mention train driving in another virus-related flying careers thread, though since this is focused non-flying careers, it's probably better that I continue here and leave the other one to aviation.

As realECMLdriver has said, there are difficulties in training new drivers at the moment. Most parts of the training process require, at some stage, delivery in a practical environment and the various parties will need time to work out how to deliver the training whilst minimising risk. Some companies are still advertising (Avanti did very recently) for trainee drivers because the recruitment process is long, it can take many months, even a good year or so. The railway is slow when it comes to recruitment.

The recruitment process usually starts with an online application/sift that may involve some fairly basic aptitude/personality tests. Take a look at the 7 Non-Technical Skills published by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB), these are highly relevant. In particular, they are looking people who value safety, stick to the rules rules and who are honest.

Next up are the main aptitude tests. To obtain a train driving licence which permits you to drive trains on Network Rail infrastructure, you must pass all of these tests. The interview referred to above where they ask you how things make you feel etc. is technically one of these tests, it's known as a Multi-Modal Interview (MMI). It's competency-based but they will put you under a lot of pressure and interrupt a lot, It's done by a psychologist so they aren't to be fooled. You must pass all of the tests (about ten I think these days) to the national standard to make it through to the next stage. One fail results in a failed sitting and if you fail two sittings you cannot re-apply as a trainee driver for any train company which uses Network Rail infrastructure. The pass rate historically was something like 10%, preparation is absolutely vital and many who pass prepare thoroughly. Many train companies set standards higher than the national minimum, however failing to meet these doesn't count towards the "two strikes and you're out" rule. Your test passes are valid for up to five years so you can take them from one company to another, few companies will recognise them for more than three years. You are not directly competing against others during these aptitude tests

Next up is usually the management interview (though some places leave the MMI till last). There's no limit as to how many you can sit though of course individual companies may prevent you from reapplying to them for say six months or a year. It's basically an exercise to see if your face fits and you are competing with others. Some places have tried to impose demographic quotas but these seem to be unpopular with drivers and local management.

The last thing is the medical, this will be arranged by your prospective employer and will be done by their provider. I'd say it's similar to a Class 2 but stricter in some areas and less so in others.

Bear in mind that train companies pay for training which in itself takes at least a year and costs the company north of £100k. In the vast majority of cases and they will expect a return of service, so only apply if you don't plan on returning to flying any time soon. Places like LNER, Avanti and Cross Country in particular tend to see very few drivers leave.

I'm sure all the train drivers on here are well intentioned, but why on earth do you all flock to a pilot forum to tell us how how much fun you have out on the tracks and how great a job it is?

You've found a career that worked, great, now why on earth go to a forum intended to those who chose a different career path?

We are aware of train driving but for many I think it's not a suitable opportunity. The time it all takes in itself from applying to actually getting an interview then even starting could be so long that an awful lot will be getting called back by their former airlines as things pick up late this year and going into next year.

I think it's a bit much to embark on a full career and go through all the retraining effort, is there a bond? if not then how would one feel morally by taking the place, building up the bill for the company and then being gone after the first phone call to get back flying? That is a place that could have gone to someone who would have made a career for life out of it. You took their dream job on the railways when you didn't even want it. If there is a bond then how would one feel having built up such a big bill to have to pay back, all because they had ants in their pants and couldn't sit still for a bit?

I accept the situation is drastic and unprecedented, but I think cautious steps are required going forward, nothing so major and certainly not so soon. The direction of the chat in this thread has taken a somewhat premature path.

Each to their own. The thread title is quite clear and it loosely fits in. I for one in the first 5 years of my professional flying career with little to no training debt appreciate the insight into the railway industry and how much more supported it is and by contrast therefore really how much airlines take pilots for a ride. Train Company goes bust? Not to worry.. government operator takes over. No brexit or climate dramas either, and plenty enough to take home to fly for fun.

Anyway..I won't be applying straight away if made redundant but I can imagine their forums are far more relaxed than ours right now!

I agree with A320 here... and whilst train driving does sound all perfect and rosy, it's not as straight forward to get into as some here may suggest.

First off, the competition to even get someone at a TOC to so much as look at your CV is almost impossible... There are very few trainee driver jobs on offer a year and when they do come around, applicants are in the 10's of thousands. And guess what? There's only 4 positions available! So yeah, I'll leave the maths to you on that one...I've often argued that in my opinion getting a train driving job is significantly harder than getting into the RH seat of a 737. I've been applying to TOC's for over a year now and haven't had so much as an assessment invite as of yet. For some perspective, I got accepted onto EZY's CTC course on my first ever attempt at applying. Also, being a pilot unfortunately won't get you any special treatment throughout the application phase, they're incredibly picky and selective and sometimes it feels like pure luck... besides, nobody will even look at your CV until the very last stages of recruitment, so prior to the final interview stages your background is pretty much irrelevant.

Adding to this, most TOC's now implement at 60 minute commute rule... fine, right? Not exactly, you have to live 60 minutes away from your base BEFORE you apply, most TOC's now don't even allow applicants to relocate on the condition of a job offer... I've had many applications rejected because of this. So how many different TOC's operate within 60 minutes of your address? I have two - one last hired new trainee's in 2014 and the other one last hired earlier this year and now probably won't again for another few years, this is exactly the kind of problem i'm talking about.

Of course, I hope none of you have to end up looking for alternative careers anyway! Good luck to you all! :)

It's already been mentioned on this thread, and I've previously touched on it: aside from the lack of relevant qualifications offered by the majority of airline pilots, perhaps the biggest issue we're going to face is the perception that we'll be off as soon as a flying job turns up. This will prove to be an insurmountable obstacle for those without the means to demonstrate significant commitment to a new career path.

Personally, I'm not bothered about flying per se, but it's the only thing I'm realistically qualified to do without an expensive refresh of my prior qualifications. I was looking for a new career even before the current crisis, and it really isn't as simple to find something else as some on here seem to believe it is, especially if you expect a salary that's even an appreciable fraction of what you currently earn.

To be fair to those posting, at least a couple of us asked with genuine interest and this thread is about life after flying. I for one am grateful for the responses.

I do like your sentiment about airlines calling back pilots that have been let go in a year or so, but where’s the guarantee in that? Any longer than that and the schools churning out cadets will be doing so again and those un-current on the outside won’t get a look in.

Driving Trains could be an interesting career shift and if it takes a while to break into that’s just comparable to ATPL exams, flying courses, MCC/JOC, application, aptitude tests, interview, sim, hold pool. Just this time, admittedly only if you make it amongst fierce competition, there’s a higher chance of keeping your job until retirement.

Thanks to those who posted, food for thought 👍

I see where you're coming from as I genuinely ummed and ahhed before posting. Wouldn't wish what's going on now on my worst enemy and I got the impression that there are some who are seriously looking for a change. I guess one reason I chose to speak up because I've lost count of the number of people who initially turned their nose up at me for saying I'm a train driver to then change their opinion when they hear all of the info in the previous posts. Many apply mid career having previously been unaware of things like pay, terms, holiday entitlement and stability. While I understand a lot of you may already know this, there are others that won't. Quite understandable too as you've poured everything into what you've achieved, so there's little to no reason to consider such a move. I thought I'd offer a little more insight into the role and if it ends up helping one out of the many thousands of you on here, then great!

It’s interesting that trains came up so quickly in the thread - only a few weeks ago I stumbled upon a Trainee driver taking over the Scotrail twitter for the day, it made interesting reading, and I made a mental note to find out more in case the proverbial diverted fanwards.

Thanks to realECMLdriver and all who have replied - whether about trains or otherwise. I wonder if there are others out there with stories they would care to share... thanks in advance.

Its amazing 2 transport related industries, both post privatisation, both limited operators. Both obviously desirable careers judging by the numbers that apply for the railways.

One funds all of the new enterent training, 4 day weeks and everyone happy.

The other, £100k plus to train, self funded, work max hours, treated like ..., etc etc.

How did we end up here? Genuinely interested. Some will say the unions, but that cant be it.

Again only posting as genuine questions have been asked and would like to help out where possible.
Not on here to gloat or rub salt in anyone wounds, far from it.
Joined pprune as I too had an ambition to fly commercially but never ended up doing so.
Honestly hope everything works out.

Ignore the criticism. I am sure I am not alone, but posts such as yours are exactly the type of information I was hoping to learn from. Many thanks for your contribution.

Whoa fella !

They might be trying to help - in the same way that we would help them if they asked us questions about flying.

Strong unions such as ASLEF and RMT have an awful lot to do with it. Also how many train drivers do the job for nothing just to gain experience plus the dreadful Pay 2 Fly schemes that were/are in operation in the aviation world. Train drivers don't trample over each other to get onto the "flight deck" either. My son left aviation under sad circumstances and joined the railway as a Driver. The selection was tough and out of 100 applicants, only 2 got through to the next stage. He loved the job but was lured back to Aviation when an upturn happened. Guess what? He is back to square one again due to C-19 and now wishes he had stayed driving trains. I did warn him!

Ignore the detractors. It’s emotional times. Given the question of the thread I think all of us in the industry welcome any chat and thoughts. Train drivers, woodworkers, what ever - it’s all welcome chat as far as I’m concerned. Try not to get sensitive and tell these folk to buzz off.

Equally those trying to police others by telling them it’s too early - what you asking for - have some emotional empathy. Some cope by facing one step at a time. Other people cope by trying to imagine a future away. Doesn’t mean they’re gonna all immediately shred their licences and apply to be railway signallers

Also, don’t see no need for mods to bin this thread off. There’s hardly much of an industry left at the min so if this isn’t a relevant topic for “terms” don’t know what is