Totally agree. We as a group do not do ourselves any favours, particularly here in the UK.

One of the most important aspects of this is the fact that would be drivers cannot pay for their own training. This means that there is never a surplus of newly qualified people desperate for their first job. Occasionally there are redundancies, recently these have been in the freight sector due to the closure of coal-fired power stations. ASLEF worked with various TOCs I believe to make sure that the drivers who wanted to stay in the industry had opportunities available. With regard to T&Cs, the union acts as a backstop to prevent TOCs from imposing things we don't want in our contracts.

The absence of large driver surpluses mean that companies have to compete for drivers, it's cheaper to take someone who's qualified elsewhere than someone who needs a full training course. If one company has a large retirement bulge coming up, the company next door might make their pay deal a bit better to avoid having their drivers poached. The appearance of Crossrail and the massive expansion of London Overground and Thameslink has done quite a lot for driver salaries at most of the London commuter TOCs because many were at risk of losing drivers. Ultimately, it comes down to supply and demand, if pilots want to restore terms and conditions, the unions have to put an end to the oversupply of 200-hour airline ready people. As I've said before, look at what the 1500 hour rule did for conditions in the US.

Another important thing is the paradigm, airlines are used to being able to get their way with pilots since the degradation of T&Cs has been going on for so long, so they demand a lot more than they otherwise would. On the railway, it's the opposite way round, there have even been a couple of occasions recently where unions have totally brass-necked it and the company has just said "yes" to the union's amazement. That said, union strength varies from company to company.

As for train drivers on a pilot forums, I have seen pilot threads on a railway forum, in fact one was created by the moderators on a rail forum to enable the railway crowd to discuss their various flying ambitions. I do know of at least one newly qualified pilot who came to the railway, he was on a zero-hours contract at a low-cost airline and it didn't pay the training loan.

When it comes to the railway, if a pilot could present a convincing case that the airline industry was not going to recover to it's pre-virus peak then that would no doubt help with recruitment. Also, since age is no-barrier to train driver training, someone who's taken an early retirement in aviation could enjoy a 10 year career on the railway. Trainees in their mid-fifties are a common sight.

Completely understand that these are emotional times, as mentioned above. I was almost ready to apply and put myself through training and I certainly feel I've gotten a lot from reading these forums over the years so if there's anything I can do to give a little back to those who are interested then I'd be all too happy to help.

I'll go as far as to say if anyone is travelling into/out of Kings Cross on the East Coast line, whether for leisure or commuting, feel free to let me know and if I'm available then I don't mind having a socially distanced chat about anything you wish to know.

There was a scheme about 5 years ago whereby graduates with Science based degrees could apply to become "Doctor Assistant" or "Assistant Doctor" - like a PA (Pilot's Assistant) once was.

I guess Google could help - or writing to a local NHS Authority? I don't have the links but I do know about it as I mentioned to my Uni daughter.

Dare I suggest Politics? Run for MP? Or Local Council?

It may be possible to switch to Merchant Navy Deck or ETO Officer BUT normally it is a 3 year Cadetship with age limits (I was one). Times have changed and rules changed so it may be possible to study for the writtens and Orals but then you need seatime. If any of you are Yacht Masters or Day Skippers then that may be more viable - one of my Army students is doing that very thing now due to the flying issues - but he has experience on yachts.

‘Covc’

You touched on something I was looking to offer forward.. Just a suggestion regarding yachts.

Wonderful ex colleague struck down with cancer that took away any imagination of regaining a UK or other class one med.

He took his skills to the local sailing school and after now some time at school and training is delivering for a good income .. Sailing boats all over the world.. Navigation, charted, timetables and people skills :).. Might be a little lonely at times but for a couple that wish to travel, it’s really small investment to gain a certificate to sail with others at first and gain miles, experience etc..

Just a thought, especially for those younger passionate types. Can always come back to flying

Ad...

I gave up flying after 22000 hours. I drive trains.. never been happier!!

If you're seriously considering jumping from aviation to something else, my advice is don't lock yourselves into any one single career. The day and age of a single line of work/career is over. Use the time wisely right now to learn a trade that can be practiced as a freelancer. Plenty of trades out there, it doesn't have to be something that involves manipulating or moving objects. Do something that can be scaled up and down as necessary or even done alongside a flying job. The flying bug will most likely return one day.

im sure you know but my post wasn’t aimed at you, quite the opposite. I think it’s welcome suggestions!

Well this is the 4th time I've lost my job as a pilot. I handed my notice in in December as was offered an April start at BA thinking this was the most stable job I'd ever have. This was retracted in March after I'd just finished line training my replacement at the old job..

The industry is ridiculous. Yes I've been paid very well, but the time away from home and constant uncertainty is for me now not worth it. So, I've just been offered a job as an Emergency Care Assistant for an ambulance trust. The money is terrible, but there is a clear career path up to through paramedic and beyond on published pay scales. The industry is recession proof and I sleep in my own bed every night. I can move anywhere in the country if I feel like it, and get an NHS pension when I'm done. The best bit for me is the people I see are truly grateful, and surprisingly medicine and aviation have learned a lot from each other.

Silver Lining/Lemonade?
 

I lost a job in 2002. My undergraduate degree is nuclear physics. I had some experience with "special weapons" in a younger life. I was hired in 1993 to work in a facility that produced the plutonium for those very same devices. I was one of 27,000 people working there, with a focus on processioning the waste remaining from Pu production. I was laid off 9.79 years later (The number is important because for benefits they truncate rather than round. Pension is at 65 unless age 60 with ten or more years.)

There were six rounds of layoffs ahead of me eliminating 10,000 people from the workforce. I was let go in a group of 47. In 2002 people still wrote checks in the grocery store. The cashier would ask for a work telephone number. Thankfully I was an Army Reservist and I used that office phone number. What would have happened if I said, "Sorry, I don't have a job?"

The Army Reserve weekend-per-month income made a huge difference between going broke slowly or quickly.

Within several months I had found a job as a high school science teacher for the school year starting in August. I knew I would be ok, but it was depressing with no money to spare and a lot of time on my hands. Plus two young kids and newly divorced.

Eleven years later I left teaching and became an Army Civil Servant. I just had my sixth anniversary. I like what I do. I purchased my military time in my civilian retirement. I'm going to work one more year, then "retire" at age 61.

Why "retire" with quotes? I am going to start a new career. The local aviation charter company approached me a while back. They have used their flight instructors as SIC in their charter business (Part 135 if you care about FAA vocabulary). These instructors would get 1499 hours with a couple hundred as King Air SIC and go get an entry level airline job. So, the charter company is hiring/training experienced pilots with a tie to the community to be SIC. I just turned 60; I'm not looking for an airline career. I can, however, be SIC for several years, allowing a good return on their training costs. I have the opportunity to be Captain eventually. So, just as "Shelter in place" was ramping up I finished training and passed the checkride for FAA multi-engine commercial pilot. I have about 900 hours with 70 multi-engine. This would be a stepping stone for many, but it's a wonderful continued opportunity for me. :)

I don't care for the term "new normal" but it does often apply. Most everyone eventually "lands on their feet." Most clouds do "have a silver lining" (hmm), and "when life gives you lemons, you can make lemonade." Trite clichés don't always help, but most people will work something out. Having been there, I can sympathize with the loss of a professional salary and a decimated pension plan.

There's also another thread on FlyerTalk which might be of interest. Since these forums are predominately aviation professionals, it's another aviation related community to reach out to. Best of luck to you all during these difficult times.

For BA staff (and others) affected by the current pandemic

3500 hour, FO at a 'flag carrier';
I'm currently working my 3 month notice period, if I'm lucky I'll return in the seat next spring but I'm mentally and financially preparing for a 2-3 year 'break' (I'm also fully aware I might never manipulate the controls of an airliner again).

I have an HGV license I'm renewing for the short term but this fall I'll start training as an electrician. I can't see myself working 9-5 ever again and I've never heard of an unemployed electrician.... Also I see it as a good side-gig with flying if things brighten up.

Best case scenario I'll continue my flying career with a small contractor business on the side, worst case scenario I'll never fly again but be a certified electrician.

Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?

not sure people will want to spill precious savings when they don’t know what they are doing

When i was 17 i did the Christmas post for 8 days, would be a winter with a few inches of snow on the ground. But when i finished on the eight day, i was sad to finish. I really enjoyed walking the streets and people starting to recognise me and say hello. People busy going to work, mother taking kids to school. A real community spirit. I always thought if i couldn't get a job i would apply to the post office.
Instead i got a job in my other interest, engineering draughtsman. Which then paid for my aviation career.

I've also always had the attitude if not happy in a job, walk out. Something always turns up.

BigEndBob, try doing the post for 8 years, not 8 days like I did! Royal Mail was a decent enough job. It provided a means to an end and allowed me to self fund all my CPL/IR. I didn’t detest it, but the ‘good old days’ are long gone there too. No more offers of full time employment. Only part time contracts which most usually make up by doing overtime. Appalling management though and not a very well run firm.

I miss the colleagues, the banter and of course my old customers I used to deliver to. I don’t miss working outside in the wind and rain though :rolleyes:

This suggestion may not be for everyone, so apologies in advance. But if you have an engineering degree, some of you may wish to consider teaching Engineering in the Further Education sector. There's a national shortage of engineering lecturers in FE at the moment across disciplines such as Electrical/Electronic Engineering, Mechanical Engineering as well as more specialist disciplines such as Mechatronics, Robotics and Building Services Engineering.

Top scale FE Lecturer salaries tend to be in the £35-38k region, and because of the shortage, even if you don't have a teaching qualification such as a PGCE and have no prior teaching experience, colleges will sometimes salary-match to the most appropriate scale point. If you're currently earning above the £38k (which I suspect most of you are), colleges won't go above it, but they could very well put you straight in on top-scale. Annual holidays are in the 55-65 days-per-year region depending on the college. Teaching is in the region of 22-24 hours per week, and the rest is your admin time (preparation, marking etc).

Lecturing jobs are usually advertised on TES Jobs and FE Jobs, as well as on college websites.

Teaching isn't for everyone, but if anyone wants more information, please feel free to PM me. There are 2x full-time, permanent Mechanical Engineering lectureship vacancies about to be advertised at my college (Midlands area).

I wish you all the very best.

The professionals will clean you out. Much as you would win, if you made a bet with a stock broker, about who can fly the best raw data ILS.

I get your point and I do not contest the argument made. But are there not large numbers of independent (amateur if you will) traders who still manage to make money out of it? Considering many markets and stocks are on the floor (though fast recovering in many sectors so one needs to be quick) is it not a good time to get involved? The stocks can only go up I mean.

I'm not speaking of investing in volatile markets or companies, but there are a number of 'safe' investments that can allow you to sleep at night and which show solid overall growth over a number of years, if one can see past the day to day ups and downs.

You’re right, I know such a professional amateur. But it is real work, this guy hasn’t taken a holiday in years, it’s serious business if you want to beat the market and get a return above that which the index would offer. My point was if you think it’s an easy dabble, it’s a bit like saying being a pilot is about pushing one ‘Autopilot’ button and that’s about it.

Retired from full time flying in 2018 and initially kept contact with the training organisations as a TRE,,however after about 6 months of lets say "odd hours" sims i.e those the full time guys didn't want to do I realised my enthusiasm was draining away and after a look in the mirror I had become the "old fart" that I objected to when I started training in the 90's.. Knocked the sim work on the head and started working evenings 3 days a week at a supermarket warehouse, quite a good happy bunch there but it didn't take long for the rumour mill to turn on and every tea break was asked "did you ever get scared, or what emergencies did you have" and was constantly called "captain" in a jocular way. Quite enjoyed the peace and relative lack of accountability and responsibility but the absence of mental stimulus meant I couldn't maintain motivation or easily integrate and was never going to a Christmas do, moreover I didn't want to feel I was "judging" my work colleagues as I quickly learnt they were intact happy and content in their employment, so I left and applied to A DIY chain as a "customer advisor', drawing on my interpersonal skills and logical brain!. After 4 months I was summoned to the head office and asked if I would consider being a store manager, but this would mean moving, which for me is not an option. When I enquired "why" they had asked me, i was told that whilst many customer reps try and "sell" things when giving advice, the feedback they had was that I had been helpful but not pushy and the returning customer count for foot traffic had increased. With Covid we are basically shut down and I'm thinking of simply doing voluntary driving work for a special needs organisation where they have retention problems simply as people do not want to adhere to health and safety procedures and work practices. I guess the moral of the story is that we become robotic and used to operating in a strict procedural environment and transitioning to "civvy street" make take some time before you find your niche. Don't disregard the people skills and logical thought processes ingrained in you and the ability to manage others, play on this at any interview. One word of caution, I would say that 95% of the "interviewers " felt intimidated by my previous experience and authority and it took perhaps 10 minutes of quiet talking, if you like puffing their feathers, to get them to see I was genuine about wanting a different career. Curiously, and perhaps uncomfortably, the senior management in these companies seemed to make a "B-line" towards me when doing visits and I felt this was more of a social class thing than anything else. Accept as a retired Pilot you will probably never be "one of the lads" and adjust your persona accordingly, I used to tell them under the tough was a hells angel waiting to escape! Asked why I still want to work, even with a comfy life, I told them to preserve the status quo at home and stop me wrecking my marriage, again, takes time to adjust.

Nice one, Kirk, good post :ok:

Mrs Uplinker, (a former purser, amongst other things), cannot even get an interview at the local supermarkets for shelf stacking. We cannot understand why, but their shelf stackers etc. are young, and the management might be put off by Mrs U's experience and abilities. She has now started dumbing down her CV.

We, (pilots and aircrew), probably believe that our reliability and experience with customer care and operations in a highly technical and exacting environment will make us more employable, but maybe not?

Anyone got experience in leaving aviation to join med school?

Wow...I guess you’d have to be relatively young to countenance Med school....?

I wish I was. But I guess that depends on what you call young. Anyway that's besides the point. I believe one is never too old to learn new things.

Maybe you got a different idea of med school, but this is to achieve a different degree and follow a different Job. The qualification you get after completing med school/University. That's Kind of the point here, to achieve a qualification in an interesting and Well respected profession. So my question is, if anyone done that before. I don't need a lecture on my Chances without a qualification outside aviation.

Aviation Lecturee
 

For anyone that may be interested i just saw an aviation lecturer job going at Southampton University, could be a golden opportunity to see through this awful time.

Guys just to give it a little break, aviation is vital to any country’s economy. It’s simply needed. So let’s wait it out, hopefully those who lose their jobs will be back flying soon enough, but let’s not forget that pilots and aviation are a fundamental need of any nation, and they should be treated as such. In the meantime let’s wait as calmly as possible. We are getting more nervous by the day, but if we understand that they MUST have airlines and pilots, everything is not so black all of a sudden.

I looked at med school out of curiosity and it's a non starter, takes about 9 years to fully qualify and when you factor in the clinical and university fees (in the UK or US) it is probably MORE expensive than training to be a pilot all over again!

Although it would almost certainly take significantly longer than nine years to qualify as a consultant, in the UK anyone with a good degree is eligible for graduate entry medicine which is a four year course. The NHS pays the fees in year four. You'd be working as a doctor from year five onwards on the normal NHS pay scale. It is an option, but winning a place to study is far more competitive and difficult than getting a space on an airline tagged scheme at an ATO, and all applicants will have a massive amount of healthcare experience, whether extensive volunteering or working in allied professions such as nursing, optometry, pharmacy etc.

Last year when I was discussing it with my AME, he did say that I'd be absolutely mad to consider medicine, and he's actively discouraged his own kids from going down the medicine route. Sound familiar?

Law would be another possible option. For graduates with any degree, the Graduate Diploma in Law is a one year course that puts you in the same position as a law graduate to apply for the professional phase of training and apply for trainee lawyer positions.

Last year when I was discussing it with a family friend who is a barrister, he did say that I'd be absolutely mad to etc.

Well it works a bit different where I am from. The whole course takes 6 years to completely, then afterwards you work for 5 years as an intern to be able to specialize in a specific direction. Studying is possible in easter europe and won't be very hard to get in.

It's possible. As we all have plenty of time I would suggest reading 'who moved my cheese' a very short management book about dealing with change, and the different way people do or don't do it. Some deny it it's happening, some will wait around for something to happen and others will get going with something else.

Yes, it’s a tricky one convincing HR bods you will be happy in a £25k job when you’ve been a god of the skies.....

Hard to be taken seriously, even harder to convince you’ve had enough and want to make a clean break of it

I was facing this predicament in 2009, when the airline industry was being crushed due to the financial crisis, and had no backup options because of a useless Professional Pilot type of degree that wasn't transferable to the real world. I tried applying everywhere, but even with a few friends vouching for me, all of my resumes were rejected because there was no experience overlap. After starting a Master's in Finance and attending career fairs, still no luck because automated resume systems just kicked my resume out at large firms.

The savior ended up being a small business government defense contractor with less than 50 employees who specialized in aeronautical data. I emailed an actual person my resume and they offered to hire me at a rate not quite as high as my previous regional airline captain level, but considerably better than first officer. They bought me time to finish my degree and practice working with tech knowledge like databases and scripting, which I then applied to the finance industry and was able to break into asset management, where I've been ever since, working as a financial manager in a fintech role.

I've chronicled the entire process of changing my career in my blog in the hopes it might help other pilots in a similar situation (I can't post the link because I don't have 10 posts on the forum here, but it's called the Golden Goose Guide). Feel free to let me know if you have any questions.

My outlook on this whole situation seems to be a little more Que Sera Sera than most.

Im 30 and currently furloughed after nearly 2 years in the business with redundancy very likely. However I never expected to get a job in the flight deck in the first place. It’s not the “norm” for my upbringing.

I’m from a very working class family and I went the down the working multiple jobs route to pay the £70k for modular training, qualified at 23 and my parents didn’t contribute a penny blah blah blah. (I’ll put the violin away now)

When most of my flight training pals got their first jobs it wasn’t so much of a big deal to their family’s. After all if they hadn’t become pilots they would have been lawyers, doctors or in finance etc. In their social circles it was just expected to have those kinds of high flying careers.

For me and my social circle it was a massive achievement. My family and most of my home town friends work in mundane office, retail type jobs paying under £25k. So to them me becoming a pilot was the talk of the town and not always in a positive way. It’s funny how envious people can be of success.

Even the skippers comment on how I’m the “roughest” pilot they’ve ever met. Honestly sometimes in the crew room I feel like Leonardo DiCaprio in that scene in Titanic where he joins the first class passengers for dinner.

However I can 100% understand the fear some pilots (especially those brought up in the upper middle class) have who’s siblings and family friends children etc all have high flying jobs.

Let’s face it there aren’t many jobs that you can just switch to that pay the same as your average pilot gig and we can’t all be train drivers. Falling from grace is an embarrassing and worrying prospect.

My biggest fear is losing the opportunity to fly and not the reduced income. Earning more than £30k for me was always a dream and one that I’ve achieved. But with the way I’ve been brought up, earning £25k in some boring office job isn’t such a worry but more of a minor financial inconvenience.

I still haven’t got out of that working class lifestyle: peanuts mortgage, old banger on the drive, the love of a £4.99 Wetherspoons breakfast etc etc.

I feel sorry for some of my colleagues that have a terrible shock to the system fast approaching: leased Audi’s that need to be paid for, the prospect of taking little Mary out of private school or downsizing the 4 bed detached house in Surrey.

It’s very hard for some people to realise you can have a happy life in a job that pays less than the national average. Overtime your lifestyles will adjust accordingly, you’ve just got to stay positive.

I really hope in 12 months time we are all laughing at how scared we were about losing our wings having gained or retained our flying jobs.

Hey Trent210

You can be my wingman anytime!

Yeah , very true, Trent 210.

I’ve never lived up to the salary , because I’ve never trusted this industry . Thus if I have to do a less well paid job, we will survive.

And you are also right about the sort of people who get jealous about the whole pilot thing ( I’ve met a fair few ) and they are always from the same demographic

This is well written and sums up my experience too. Stoicism on a personal level helps to survive in this cruel world.

It must be so scary for some of the pilots I’ve met along the way, that went integrated at 18, who are now mid 30’s on £100k+. Most of which have never done a single days work outside the flight deck in their lives.

If they lose their pilot job there isn’t many jobs (if any) that pay that much without serious retraining. Only about 20% of UK taxpayers earn over £40k so it’s clear to see there won’t be high flying jobs for all the grounded pilot.

Getting passed HR is a nightmare. I’ve been doing temp office work these last couple of weeks to top up my furlough money. Even though it’s temp the company still want you to be available to them until they don’t need you not until you don’t need them anymore. So to get passed the first hurdle I told them I’d been made redundant from the airline and my base captain kindly backed it up on my reference. The interview consisted of a 5 min Skype chat and I was offered the job on the spot.

I went into the office for the first time thinking to myself keep the flying job under the radar... boom I’m sat about 3ft away from someone I went to school with, someone I have on Facebook. So now the whole office knows I’m a pilot. It’s a very surreal situation, almost like they don’t know how to talk to me as just a regular work colleague. I’ve been asked multiple times by the same person what the scariest part of flying is so either he doesn’t listen or he’s just trying too hard to make conversation.

Although I’m only hoping to be there temporarily I’ve already accepted I’ll never be “one of them” through no fault of my own. I don’t march up and down the office in my uniform nor do I start every conversation with “when I was a pilot...”. I’m actually from their social circle so I can only imagine how they would treat Lawrence or Hugh the privately educated, been in the business since puberty, pilot

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