You clearly underestimate non-pilot competition.

Sadly I agree .
whilst most are busy “ chasing the dream “, there is no plan B .... just a single minded determination to make it to the flight deck because that’s all they want to be .

Most Plan Bs I’m interested in , I find I’m a little too old to apply which is disappointing and as you’ve said there are plenty of qualified applicants for the roles.

Fortuntely my level of distrust for this industry was such I’ve always spent carefully and in no way have I ever come close to spending what I used to earn

Both previous posts exactly sum up the current situation : millions of jobs will be lost worldwide in many different fields, obviously including aviation which will be one of the primary targets. Thinking about reinventing yourself as a business analyst with an airline pilot only background is pure science fiction.

Then go get some IT support job fixing broken PCs (yes the salary will be low but it's relatively easy to get into and better than being unemployed), make sure you are well regarded internally in the company, and then when a business analysis role comes up, move within the company. Most firms prefer to have internal career progression as it raises employee morale

Timeframe?

Next life.

Pre covid, I considered my salary to be fair compensation for the many downsides of airline flying. Given that we are all now going to have to face a haircut (and not just the lockdown variety) there must come a point when the job is just no longer worth it. I wonder if anyone else has a bottom line?

Prior to Covid19 I was already digging my escape tunnel from aviation. I've been flying since 1995 and having hit 50 a few years ago, I started to become more aware of the very negative impact that flying was having on my health and my relationships with my family. To be the richest man in the graveyard is not one of my ambitions.

Due to Covid19 I last flew at the beginning of March and I personally haven't missed the job at all. I feel more relaxed than I've ever felt and sleep better than I've ever slept....no more am I going to bed at half seven in the evening, worrying whether or not I will hear the alarm which is due to wake me at 0300 for the early check-in. My relationships with my family and friends are better than they've ever been, life has slowed down and I'm enjoying every day. I still have no idea whether or not I will be made redundant, I will just have to swing with the punches but rest assured I am planning for the worst (best?) case scenario.

My big turning point in flying came several years ago when I did a pension review. I found out some basic information :-
What was the value my fund?
What happens to the fund if I die before my wife?
What happens to the fund when we both die?
If I go down the annuity route, what is the likely rate I would get on retirement?
How much was my 25% tax free lump sum and what could I do with it to generate an income?
What income would the remaining 75% provide?
What is the life expectancy of pilot after retirement?

I realised that even though my pension fund was quite large, I would be retiring on a very meagre income in comparison to my current Captains salary. After my Oh *uck moment and a bit of blind panic I started reading everything that I could to do with pensions. I learned that through my property business, it was possible for me to legally access the pot of money that forms my fund. I was amazed to learn that I could access it immediately (I was 50), and that through my business, I could utilise that fund to create a tax efficient income now. At the same time I could also build a trust which would be passed to my family tax free and in full should I die.
Even though I have full access to my pension fund via my business, it remains uncrystallised and I'm still free to contribute the maximum amount to it each year.

Since that 'Oh *uck' moment I've worked hard to make my plans a reality and to be quite honest Covid has cemented my decision, its given me the time to expand on my plans and to bring some of them forwards. I definitely do not want to be reliant on some greedy, bonus hungry airline CEO/COO etc to provide for my family and our lifestyle for any longer than I have to.

Can we assume that you'll be the first to raise your hand for voluntary redundancy then? Save the job of somebody who doesn't have a property business and a "quite large" pension fund - more likely a "quite large" training debt, student loan and, if they're lucky, a mortgage to pay.

If only every captain who spends the bulk of days complaining about the job in amongst talking about their three properties, businesses, pension funds and expensive cars would do the honourable thing and step aside, there wouldn't be a need for people to be seeking ideas on an internet forum about what to do when their career is decimated thirty years before retirement.

This!!!

Oh and don't forget the complaints about the tax bills for the pension pot being so big!

I flew with a lovely bloke a number of years ago who told me all about the house he and his sailing chum had purchased for a meagre 380k to keep their gear in. Apparently it was a must to have their sails etc so close to the boat. Not being a sailor, still loaded up with training debt and having recently struggled onto the housing ladder I politely excused myself for a few minutes for a quick Basil Fawlty style 'BASTARD!!!!' shout in the toilet.

Why not? As long as the package offered gives enough for me to survive for the interim.

BTW, don't tar everyone with the same brush. I am not a captain that moans about the job all day, I enjoy it when I'm there but I don't miss it when I'm not. I still have a long way to go before 'retirement'. I still have debt, I still have a mortgage to pay for and I also have kids to raise. However I've chosen not to waste my money on 'designer' goods or expensive leased cars. Instead I have invested it in assets that will bring a lifelong income. I continue to invest except that since I woke up to the fact that traditional pensions are next to useless, and after I realised that I could access my pension fund at any age below age 55, I now have sufficient capital to achieve my goals in significantly less time.

The last two posts are fairly predictable in that they concentrate on what Bendig has rather than what he/she is saying. The reason people like Bendig probably won't be lining up to take redundancy is that so few of them understand their own financial position in any sort of detail. Bendig and Co. won't retire early because all of a sudden you have NO INCOME and a lot of outgoings. Unless you've spent a lot of time planning your exit, the reality of leaving the world of a regular pay cheque is plain scary.
The counter argument to the young pilot from the older is, if you lose your job you have the time to come back and make good the damage. I could lose my job and never get another in my lifetime remaining.

Meanwhile you have so called skygods bragging on Linkedin that they are willing to fly for food. I weep for my career.

Chartered Surveyor
 

Speaking as someone who used to be in aviation and dreamed of becoming a pilot, which never happened mainly due to money and the risk I just didn't want to take at the time. I just thought I would share something that may give you some guidance into a career in Surveying.
​​​​​​
With everything in aviation being pretty poorly paid below ATC or at the pointy end, I left the industry entirely and became an estate agent, this gave me some experience to get into a surveying firm and qualify as an associate of RICS surveyor. Pay starts around £40k plus, but I know experienced guys that are making 6 figures.

You don't have to have experience to join a firm as you can pay around £10k to a company called SAVA to do a home based learning course, similar to Open University.

Good thing about being a surveyor is in a crap market you will get plenty of repossession work. Always based at home, can be finished by lunchtime some days and weekends off!

I appreciate that it's a difficult time for all of you and this post maybe completely irrelevant but if it's of help to anyone, I'm more than happy to answer questions.

These are all good ideas, but as macdo alludes to, they all take time. I actually looked at surveying a few years ago, as something to work towards in spare time and maybe do as well as flying. It’s a minimum 12 month course (double that if you distance learn), to get to the entry level standard (a way off £40k p.a. too). I can imagine how the conversation goes - “Hello bank manager, I’d like to take a 12 month mortgage holiday to spend 10 grand on a course that might get me a job earning half my old salary maybe.”

It’s crap. All these ideas are good for is long term planning, 2-5 years to get back to a reasonable middle class existence (and nowhere near our previous lifestyles). It’s going to be an absolute bunfight over the next 18 months just to keep the lights on.

Fair enough , as I say it was just an idea for anyone that might be interested. I feel for all you guys right now, there's no doubt being a pilot is one of the best jobs in the world and the thought of doing something else is not even worth thinking about. But if there is someone out there that wants a change and can take the financial gamble then there are plenty of options out there.

Unless you have a previously existing and current qualification, hopefully with some relevant experience and up-to-date knowledge of the trade in concern, reinventing yourself as a reasonably-paid office worker will take about as long as the recovery of aviation, if not longer. Almost anything worthwhile in terms of income and prospects will require you to commit to it long-term rather than just use it to bridge a gap between two flying jobs. And the amount of new information you will likely have to take in will erase a good bit of your aviation knowledge unless you work hard to maintain it.

So, think twice. Do you want to abandon aviation completely and go for a clean start elsewhere or do you want just to survive financially until the market improves? If it's the latter, most jobs that will see you through might not be the nicest ones out there but they're about as much as one can achieve without switching careers once and forever. Think retail, delivery, customer support, remote recruitment etc. Those are all positions with a high turnover of personnel, so it's also unlikely that you will have to convince anyone that you will not bolt the very moment a flying job comes your way.

I guess it’s a question of what you think the job will look like in 20 years versus a career change.

Ive had a lot of time, much like everybody else, to consider career paths and perhaps a switch to something more stimulating could be useful and safer in the long term. Plugging backwards and forwards on the same routes probably won’t do it for me for the next 35 years.

Aviation salary versus job difficulty must be one of the best out there though!

So you think an office job will be more stimulating and difficult ?

must be one of those pilots who only wanted in to get an Instagram post with some stripes

To be honest, yes I do think that.

Never posted on instagram - I got into this industry because I enjoyed flying. It's been poisoned over the years by toxic, mediocre management.

I don't want to lose this job in my 40s and have no transferrable skills to keep the mortgage paid.

I'm truly sick of it all and if I can find a useful way out to a second career I think I'll take it.

Well, I’m sorry to hear that. TBH flying as a career , is probably best as a hobby ....get a high paid city job, and fly for fun at weekends. After all we can’t go fly where we want, when we want.

I think Pilots have a lot of transferable skills , the problem is those already in other jobs also have those skills but have the specific work experience thrown in .

Anything else WILL feel mundane after flying a jet worldwide , but if the glamour days are over, I’ll try not to become that old f@rt down the pub boring people with tales of flights.

What I really miss, only two months into this grounding, is the actual routine. Starting out at set times, knowing the procedures, the hotels, buying my shopping etc.....I miss the cheap stuff I used to buy abroad....etc

No, they are good ideas, if you are planning a move out of aviation. The problem is, we’re having this situation thrust upon us. It’s the situation that’s crap. Maybe I should have articulated it better.

On the subject of office roles being stimulating (or not) - unless you work in a couple of very limited fields which actually create new things, pretty much every job becomes routine and mundane quite quickly. Just as flying an aircraft involves SOP, facilitating most processes in the majority of businesses relies heavily upon set procedures and protocols. So, whatever you end up doing in that office - chances are that you won't reinvent the hot water, just as you won't by flying commercially. Therefore, any long-term choice boils down to desired lifestyle, income and prospects.

God I love seeing absolutely DELUDED pilots saying stuff like that. Tell me what other career has you getting paid that much and working 3-4 days a week.

Unless you have years of experience this is pure codswallop. Expect 100 hour weeks, awful commutes and BS day to day BS.

Did we leave out the catch that "company phone included" will likely mean "you'd better be available 24/7/365, be it during your commute, at 9 PM after a working day or on the weekend"? Did we mention that you'll see loads of people who spend most of their working day on Facebook while someone else, who might as well be you, gets one task after another thrown at them just because you appear to be taking things a bit more seriously than the average Joe on the adjacent desk? Did we also comment on the lovely attitude of "there's no going home until the project is finished, even if that means staying until 10:30 PM for little to no overtime payment"? And the time which will be simply wasted for nothing in return in traffic jams and supermarket queues because you're always travelling to and from work just when everyone else is and you are shopping for groceries just when everyone else is?

If you think that this is better than the average flight ops department - well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Both can be great places to work at, but both can also be a mess. Neither flying, nor office work are inherently good or inherently bad in terms of how you will be treated. There are toxic companies with a terrible working environment and non-existent work ethics in every branch you can think of. So, if you turn your back to the "horrible and inhumane airlines" in hopes for getting better treatment elsewhere, you might be in for a nasty surprise.

I didn’t say it would be easy did I ? Why so bitter ? Another wannabe ?

Any career where you are the one accountable (i.e. going to jail) for the lives of your pax, the stuff you carry on board and 100+ millions euros equipment.

As far as I know, train drivers in Italy work 6 days a week, and it's mostly by sole operator nowadays. Just saying it since many mentioned driving trains.

You didn't say it but you sure implied it. "Get a high paying city job they said".
I'm only bitter because I just got made redundant down under (got my 3 month notice) and prior to that flew with plenty of Captains who were fed up with flying and thought they could just waltz off and make 200k NZD+ just like that, while working 3-4 days a week, 6 weeks annual leave +++. Guess what pumpkin, ya can't.

Anyway I'm off to brush up on my Python and JS which I haven't touched in a production environment for over 8 years. Also be weary of IT professionals who claim that they "CAN" make more money than flying but only working 2 days a week, on a professional pilot forum of all places. Okay mate sure ya can :D

Best of luck ,
By high paid city job - I meant you’d have had to start out there, not career swap.

nothing in life worth having is easy !

"Also be weary of IT professionals who claim that they "CAN" make more money than flying but only working 2 days a week, on a professional pilot forum of all places. Okay mate sure ya can"

Depends what you compare it with. If you are flying a turboprop or a light jet even as a Captain you are unlikely to be earning much above 50k a year. So yes it is quite feasible that certain IT consultants could earn as much in 2 days.

Whilst I’m grateful for any ideas , I hate to say it, but flying isn’t all about money .

You have to earn enough but, the excitement level of taking off in a large jet is still there and sure as hell beats the excitement of “ who borrowed my stapler and didn’t return it “, that’s partially why the readjustment would be so great. It’s still a coveted and unusual job and not only that , the routine and lifestyle is very different to a 9-5 existence

My wife is director of recruitment in a large famous IT firm and I have first hand info about the salaries in consultancy. Some are pretty descent I admit but way below mine and many of my colleagues in terms of hourly rate (A330 Captain/+300k per year working 8 days per month). I will never trade my job for an IT job...

The trouble is that your extraordinary pay is already an outlier statistically in the aviation world where a 330 skipper would command less than half the money and be quite grateful to have it. You must surely wonder how 300k for 8 days work a month is sustainable? If I had to bet on the sustainability of a career over the next 40 years, IT would seem a better bet than aviation.

Oh dear. I think someone REALLY needs to do their research.

Ok, go on. I'm all ears.

Well for starters, don’t the low costs do 5/2, 5/3 ?

wheres this 3/4 days a week BS come from ?

When I said do your research I didn't mean me or others spoon feed you info. :rolleyes:

But anyway, as you're all ears .....if you seriously think we're all swanning around doing 3-4 days a week on "that much money" (in your words) I think it's you that "DELUDED".

Not sure what T's and C's are like where you are but over here in Blighty they're nothing like that. Unfortunately!

Not in Europe, I reckon