He comes across as a total :mad: especially the class remarks... But he’s not entirely wrong.

I’m practically a hobbyist these days and in the process of being canned for the final time. Generally not too bothered.

Secondary occupation built up over the last decade as a property developer/investor. Does pretty well.

Echo the thoughts of others... Retraining or running your own business is infinitely more challenging than most flying jobs. It takes resolve you probably don’t know you have and you’ll have more days than you can count that resemble the worst sim checks imagineable. Be prepared to spend a lot of time (potentially years and years) working without tangible reward.

Buf once you do, you’ll realise that all but the top end of Legacy payscale/lifestyle are relatively uninteresting by comparison.

If you do it and STICK at it, then you likely wont regret dropping the flying and the compromise that comes with it.

Best of luck to everybody.

Problem is you need some resources to even begin things like property development.

What you need to be is in at the start of something new and big ....like micro scooters years ago...

Simply not true and if you drop me a PM i’ll more than happily give you a big hint how.

guy_incognito

As someone who left the job after 16 years of commercial flying after being thoroughly fed up of it, I can sympathise with your situation. I am now driving trains for a living and the difference to my personal and family quality of life is immeasurable compared to before. I took a smallish pay cut but worth every penny.

I’d certainly recommend it to anyone who is thinking of getting out or who has lost their job, as there is no cost to get qualified and thereafter job security for life with a nice pension to boot.

Good luck to everyone hanging on.

The main resource you need for any career to work is time. For train driving, the training is at least a year (but, unlike aviation, trainees usually get a decent scholarship right from day one). For any private business, it also takes time to make things work and actually start earning steadily. So, you just need to accept that anything worth undertaking will not be a quick fix but rather a long-term commitment.

When the economy is good and airlines are growing and promotions happen quickly, everyone is happy. When things are going backwards, nobody is happy. This industry has always been cyclical, and there are ups and downs. This obviously is not a good time for pilots! Who knows what it will look like in five or ten years.

I have worked many jobs outside of aviation, and I have enjoyed different aspects of every job I’ve had. Some jobs did not pay that much, but they were very interesting.

For someone just beginning this career, I completely agree that it is better to have a back up career with experience. For those of already in this business, obviously now is the time to look at possible back up jobs.

I remember when I returned to an airline after being made redundant and people asked me why I came back. I had a great job at a law practice and I actually enjoyed the legal field. The truth was I enjoy aviation more. In the other profession it was difficult to take time off. One also had to worry about many other aspects of the business; support staff, bills, insurance, clients, etc. that being said, I am confident that if I had a medical issue and could not fly, I would be able to find another job. There is no job beneath me, and I am sure I would find aspects of any job interesting and new... at least for a while.

I wish everyone luck! These are difficult times, but I am confident we will all land on our feet. If you enjoy aviation, don’t give up on it forever. It’s never fun when one has to work more for less money (many airlines cutting pay and changing T&C), but I can also tell you the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence (jobs outside of aviation).

how did you get in without any other previous experience on the rails may I ask?

I did the same. You don’t need any prior rail experience. The bar is very low for applying for the role, hence why they get thousands of applications for every job. You have to demonstrate and stand out from the crowd, but with prior aviation experience, it will stand you in very good stead. You will have to fight for it every step of the way, but absolutely worth it in the end. Such a breath of fresh air away from aviation.

Transport for Wales were open for applications til Oct 15. Based Cardiff or Camarthen . If was about 50k a year after training.

It's not completely impossible, but luck and connections play 10 times their normal role these days. Forget about the regular way of application via an online system. Nobody will do that for a long time to come because nobody has the time or willingness to read through 1000 applications for 1 or 2 openings. Vacancies are so scarce that almost every employer already has someone in mind for each of them before they have even opened.

My suggestion would be to try and look into getting ANY job with an air operator of some kind for the sake of getting a foot into the door. Even if it's a job manning a reception desk. In this way, you stand a chance of being promoted internally when the time comes. And, by that time, you will have diversified your knowledge with learning some areas of the business other than flying - which will position you better for your future career progression.

guy_incognito.

Aircraft maintenance engineer... Same problems but a lot less pay, and not as transferable as you'd think. You would still have to retrain from the bottom in any other mechanic or engineering trade

Finding the actual job is not a purpose, but rather a consequence of staying motivated and knowledgeable and keeping in touch with your aviation network. That's one way to look at it. Those are the sort of trying times when you need all your resilience. And the fact that you don't give up at the first sign of trouble, as some people are inclined to do, will speak a lot of you to any future employers. Also, cynical as it may sound, it's a sort of a practice run where you can learn about how to manage times of crisis. Things like that happen in aviation every 10 years or so. For a 40-year career, you're likely to live through at least 3 large-scale airline bloodbaths with thousands of unemployed pilots out there. The reasons could be anything - a pandemic, an economic collapse, a petroleum crisis. But the result for our brethren is always the same. So, now it's a good time to work out how to be best prepared for the next one which, for one reason or another, will happen around 2030 or so. Keep calm and carry on. Life hasn't stopped, or at least not for too long.

First off I feel for anyone who lost their jobs and means of putting food on the table, it’s awful. A job is a job, and it should be taken as such. At least in my case an absolute necessity to feed my family.

I have to say though I find it funny reading all these threads with people talking about the good old days (up to 6 months ago) and anxiously waiting for the world to be a sensible place again.

To be honest the things that come to mind are the endless 4 legs days with delays and crap from drunken passengers.
The long long weeks waking up at 4 am on a rainy November day and the constant moaning from pretty much everybody from ramp agents to copilots.
The feeling of being totally knackered, completely useless for months at the time, with the company changing my schedule weekly if not daily.
The stress of coming up with a holiday idea to try and recover, only to be even more stressed once back home.
The constant talk from management of the need to cut costs because times are tough (were they?? Really??).
The repetitive pattern of a groundhog day, where everyone is pretty much miserable until the next picture they post on instagram where all of a sudden no one is complaining about discretion or going into their day off anymore (hang on, wasn’t that the FIRST thing you told me at the briefing?!).

And this comes from someone who is blessed to be within the the LUCKY FEW with a stable job and good income for a good few years.

I could go on, but I won’t. It’s just to give a bit of perspective, and to remind ourselves to enjoy the moment because be careful what you wish for could never be more true come the end of the pandemic era.

Some good points from PilotLZ and bringbackthe80's.

It always bugged me that we pilots and crew were sudsidising our passengers' cheap tickets by accepting the rosters and conditions we had, while our CEOs and senior managers were raking in their million pound salaries while sound asleep at 0500 when we were already at work. We should all have gone on strike for better rosters.

I used to have very little trouble sleeping at odd times and then getting up at 0400 to get ready to drive to work - I ate a healthy diet, kept fit and took regular exercise. I fitted black-out blinds to the bedroom and got headphones for Mrs Uplinker to watch the telly (in the lounge) while I was sleeping.

But, after a year of not flying, I don't miss those earlies or those rosters !

Same old problem with a job where it’s someone’s “ dream “, the fact they will do anything to get a foot in the door means they will trample their granny for an opportunity ,let alone their colleagues.

Thus you never have full team think even with a union .

Transitioned from uniform to suit, two years ago. Some advice.
 

[long time reader, first time poster]

I decided to become a pilot when I was five, and decided to quit flying when I was thirty-five and a captain. I went into management consulting at a Big Three consultancy. Here are some thoughts, well-intended.

Thoughts on working as a pilot

1. Piloting a four-engine long range jet through the night, over a foreign continent, above the lights of cities the names of which you'll never know (shame on you, Lido) while exchanging dirty jokes with your colleague and earning money for it? That is the best job you can have. Full stop. Don't appreciate the pprune rants too much. There are only two key points to consider:
2. First key point is not to make it your only stake. Because if your livelihood depends on Medical+License+Economy, there are too many variables you do not control. Also, as every industry, as flying moves from exclusivity to commodity, industry margins, wages will go down. This is economics 101, and no union will ever stop this.
3. Second key point is to meditate deeply if it is acceptable that the smartness/impactfulness relation for the pilot job is unfavourable. You need to be pretty smart to do the job (more precise: to do the right thing when the s* hits the fan, not necessarily at 30° west), however, you will leave no dent whatsoever in the universe. And there is an easy path to burnout when the work doesn't feel purposeful. This is the part that moved me away from flying.

Thoughts on working as a consultant

1. I now work more in a week than most pilots log block hours in a month.
2. I never knew that I still had to learn that much. About the world, about me, everything.
3. There is no 30° West moment. The mental load of the work is raw data ILS with gusts, all the time, 08AM to 12PM.
4. On the upside - there is a huge dent in the universe now, and that dent is mine. In one of my first projects, I helped to put together key analyses for sustainable fuels, hydrogen aviation and the commercial viability of these technologies; the work has influenced hundreds of industry leaders, including some in Toulouse. When my son asks my what I did for his generation - I have an anwer.
5. There are less dirty jokes, but I really do enjoy the presence of smart colleagues, and having really inspirational conversations about math, religion, logic or ethics over a late night pizza in the office. Didn't happen to me that much in aviation.

Thoughts on working in everything else

1. As a consultant, I have the chance to peek into many corporates. Verdict: working as a corporate ant is well paid, but dull - and most of the corporates I have seen have a really bad culture, nothing comparable to the work atmosphere with a crew of halfway well-selected, well-trained and CRM-proficient colleagues.
2. There are so many other opportunities I never knew about or thought about as a pilot. Join a startup in NY, Berlin or TelAviv. Learn coding at microverse.org. Become a freelance designer/writer/editor/researcher at upwork or Fiverr. Become an official at a public national or supranational institution. Become a Kindergarten gardener helping kids to grow their own tomatoes. Drive ambulance.

Thoughts on your qualifications and way forward.
Here are some things I learned about qualifications transferrable and not transferrable to the pedestrian job world.

1. A master's degree (a real one, not stolen from Embry-Riddle) + you are still in your thirties? Good, some corporate roles are probably open for you.
2. Not in your thirties anymore, but you have a master? Try higher-ranked public sector jobs in lower-tier institutions
3. Not in your thirties anymore, or no academic degree? I'd suggest not bothering getting a degree. Instead, go to coursera.org, or edx, get a MicroMaster in e.g. DataScience and try to land a job with that. You would need to refresh matrices and multivariate calculus, though.
4. Master's + 2-3 years of work experience in a tech startup or a managerial role in the airline + not too much above thirty? Consultancy might be open to you.
5. You learned a craft? Probably the best of all situations. At least in my country, there is a s*load of money you can earn with this. And you can still do it as a part-time hustle once flying picks up...
6. Problem solving: as pilots, we think we are trained in that, but we really are not. What we lack are divergent / creative problem solving techniques, like Design Thinking. While flying, the solution to any problem and the desired and state is to land the plane safely. In business, we a) often don't even know what the problem is b) need to invent the checklist and c) may have completely different viable solutions.
7. Interpersonal skills: as flight crew members, we are better trained than most other pedestrians. Way better. Leverage that in your interviews.

I do wish everyone of you the best luck going through this crisis. I for my part, am not done with flying yet. Hopefully before not too long, we'll all be de-dusting our logbooks,
slip the surly bonds of earth
and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings.

Interesting missive .

I don’t want to leave a dent in the universe but used to leave a few in runways .

consultancy wise - any of these desk jobs have an in tray that builds . Flying doesn’t other than the odd ASR etc. That is a big selling point for flying . When you get off you are done .

Found it interesting on one of our Aussie shows that laid off pilots (Captains included) where being trained to operate harvesters for the up coming season. Although not a long term job certainly will pay the bills.

Meester proach

This. I've been keeping myself busy since being made redundant this year, but this is possibly what I miss the most. Chocks on and I clock off. As you say, the exception of the (hopefully odd) ASR and that's it. I can go home and not worry about emails, to-do lists, keeping the laptop open until midnight. That's worth so much more than the pay check.

@finestking

Why would they need any ? Is there an on-going shortage ?

Good post, Joe.

Thanks Joe.....nice to have constructive posts on a thread like this.....

Good post Joe and I am pleased that you have found something you enjoy. I did it the other way around, moving from partner in a big consulting firm back into flying. Both are great jobs. Consulting was much better paid than being a jet captain and that financial cushion made the vagaries and uncertainties of airline flying a lot easier to bear. One caveat I would make however, is that consulting can be an up or out type of job. By that I mean over time you either work your way up the ranks or get let go. There is a degree of slaloming between firms till you find your place. But the number of consultants that remain in a consultancy till retirement is quite small. It is essentially a young man's game. Although having said that my wife (somewhat younger) has gone back to consulting full-time, which solves the problem of me suddenly being home a lot more.

I always loved flying and having flown for a while between university and consulting I was happy to get back in the air. Timing is everything and things worked out. I flew Boeings and various models of Airbus till I was sixty and rather assumed most people made it that far. A rather sobering article I just read, quoted some studies that said that even prior to Corona a lot of airline pilots did not continue flying that long. The gist of it was that after age 43 about five percent of Airline pilots per year stopped flying. So of the entire cohort only 11 percent made it to sixty. I find it a bit hard to believe. But I suppose if you add up the people that fail medicals and checks, lose their jobs for other reasons, not least their airline going bust and those who find something they prefer (like Joe) then maybe it is not so outrageous.

I'm not surprised with the figure of before-60 retirements and career changes. Not in the slightest. After age 45 or so, most people tend to reevaluate their priorities, even if that means downshifting in the name of a more relaxed life. I've seen people in their late 40s or early 50s leave flying for a lower-paid job on the ground or exchange a major carrier for some small and unknown charter operation where much less flying is done each month/year. What is tolerable at 30 is no longer tolerable at 50.

Slightly off of the consulting topic but...

https://jobs.eastmidlandsrailway.co....x?ref=2020-223

East Midlands Railway are doing an online open day about the train driver roles that they'll likely advertise at some point. I know it's something that I've banged on about a bit on this thread but this is an opportunity for those who are interested to found out more about the career directly from a major employer without having to leave the front room. When the franchise was run by the previous operator, EMT, pretty much all externals started out as depot drivers. I don't know if it's still the case at EMR but that was pretty much unique to EMT, it's possible to straight into mainline work pretty much everywhere else.

I don’t know anyone who has traded aviation willingly for anything else . Quite the reverse , lots of old boys hanging in there doggedly into the 60s. And KLM retireees who found golf and gardening too dull at 55...and wanted to carry on.

The only ones I’ve known pack it in are those to whom it was a side interest and their real job made more money - but can count that number on one hand

My experience was the same and I note your emphasis on the word willingly. I suppose it depends where you worked. If you were in a series of companies that went bust you probably know more people who involuntarily were forced to move on to other things. At least every ten years there has been a major downturn. I can think of the oil crisis, two gulf wars, the 2008 financial crisis and now Corona to name but a few things that caused problems for aviation employment. Add in the move from three man to two man cockpit when I was starting out and people with loss of licence insurance deciding they had had enough of low cost bottom feeders and the numbers who have packed it in early mounts up. There has been tremendous growth in pilot jobs over the last ten years. But a lot of those have been taken by people under 43. Probably an outlier, but even legacy carrier captains choose to move on. For example Carlo Kitzlinger the actor in 7500 was a Lufthansa A320 captain.

One area of consultancy that is thriving at the moment is HR.
I realise that most HR in most airlines is hardly strategic/dynamic, and some of it is so much like our UK Government - running a useless omni-shambles, but the experience of a recently redundant pilot might be relevant.

The downside is that a lot of the current work is firing people. But if you carefully researched the law and required processes when you were made redundant, you might already have something to offer a consultancy - even if, tactically, you are using it to get your foot in the door.
Naturally, lots of research is required, and maybe some counter-intuitive thinking - the smaller, local consultancies are where the growth is - the big multi-nationals are just shuffling staff around.

nickler

A "higher social level"...?

What an outdated and snobbish opinion.

A mate of mine recently had a part of his house redecorated by an out of work VS Captain.

Did a real nice job and a nice guy too. More importantly, wasn't afraid to do "menial" work (as described here by some) when needs must.

This is true. Great life story, by the way!

I’m not afraid to do menial work - it’s interesting to see people’s attitudes from the other side.

I’m glad now that I always made the effort to chat to the refuellers, cleaners etc to make them feel part of the team and equally as important, as I can see some condescending attitudes when I’m out there in the real world.

Whatever happens , after 7 months off, I’ve got to do something so I do .

Yep true - I'm just thinking about the crews that have just delivered BA 744s IVB and IVY to Kemble and St Athan. End of their careers possibly. Very sad.

PoacherNowGamekeeper

This is what sociology is based upon as of today.

PoacherNowGamekeeper

I think they'll be ok. one is the director of flight operations. the others are probably (not 100% sure) in the crs pool getting paid 2/3 salary while awaiting a type rating on the 777 in the next 2 years.

I take your point, but I was thinking about the 744 crews as a whole, both flight deck and cabin crew.

A lot of Airline types suddenly now thinking Corporate aviation is the promised land and that they are superbly "qualified" to do it. Delusion, on a mass scale. Firstly, the number of opportunities are tiny and secondly please, please, please go get a job in a supermarket, you will be much more suited to that way of life.

Private jet

What a disgraceful thing to say, on a thread that you know is populated by people in very dire straights indeed.

Enjoying your moment are we? Well done you. To be fair, you're probably still frothy after your unexpected emulation and you certainly won't be intelligent enough to realise that it wasn't skill that left you with a chair when the music stopped.

In fact, judging by the way the industry is evolving, I'm sure you'll go far. Meanwhile, the prospect of sharing a cockpit with handschuhschneeballwerfer like you is probably one of the reasons that experienced transport pilots - the future of flight safety - are quickly coming to terms with calling it a day.

Enjoy your Corporate aviation party, you lucky thing.

Private jet

Afraid of competition from some who may be better trained and more experienced?

ZeBedie

Where do I say that airline pilots can't operate an aircraft? I'm saying many are fundamentaly unsuitable for Corporate aviation in terms of their personality, that is all. Also if any pilot was truly commited to this corner of the industry they would have made it their ambition from day one, rather than now, as a safe port in a storm... One last thing, before you start talking about safety, I believe statistically NCC/Part91 ops are safer than airline.