Thomson ask for 21k over three years off your salary if non rated and 7k off the salary yr 1 if you are rated. So airlines do want to recoup some of their costs, but 18k is over the top.

Their train set and hence if you want a job there - follow the process otherwise you have a choice to not go there.

Got it in one. Attrition is high, very high at present. A significant number of others have their affairs in order for an exit this winter.

Moral has seen a significant increase now that pay & scheduling discussion are closed. Q4 drivers have seen a bump that will close the gap to jet in 3 years. FO's joining now will join a common pay scale on day one.

Commands are currently happening for those hitting the 2000TT mark. Jumps on to the Ejet can be less than 12 months from start date if you're willing to go anywhere.

Current downside; stability none. Flying/duty limits regularly reached by some. Overtime however is available 'on tap' for those that want it.

Is the market at last opening up,for turboprop guys

https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-08-04

That sounds like Wizz.

Improved Terms now for DEC at Flybe, 33 days leave from the start, 12% pension contribution and now only a 2yr bond.

Cabin Crew < Careers < Corporate | Flybe UK

Whats the point of the 10 tonne requirement? Is the airspace or rules of flying different if the aircraft is under 10 tonnes?

For the same reason all the other airlines place stipulations on their recruiting requirements, to stop a certain demographic from applying, for instance, a captain flying chieftains will not be suited to the operation.

What about stipulating Multi-Crew time and/or turbine/turbo-prop time, as there are many, many decent operations/operators using aircraft under 10 tonnes. There will be hundreds of highly qualified and competent pilots flying aircraft under 10 tonnes that won't be able to apply.

G-DAVE I don't really see an issue, the stipulations are quite forgiving to be honest. You won't see lower DEC requirements than that at any other major operator in the UK. Easyjet/jet2 all required alot more than that. The Q400 isn't just your usual run of the mill airplane, it's very unforgiving and is difficult to master if you've never flown anything similar before, particularly if you're a new commander to type with a raw chap in the RHS, and believe me anyone taking the job will be flying with alot of inexperience.

I think people tend to over exaggerate the difficulty of the Dash. Yeah it can be tricky to land at times and there's some peculiarities to it (particularly Vmo below FL80 - but you just need to be aware of that and slow down, which you can do quickly). I honestly found energy management for example way more challenging going onto the airbus. The dash could slow down and go down. Easily. Admittedly it doesn't take an awful long time to master on the bus but a CDA on the dash was a piece of piss to achieve. Less so on Jets. I loved the dash (would love to have another go at it) and it's a fantastic aircraft to start on, no question. But let's not pretend it's the Space Shuttle ;-)

Reversethrustset; just by reading your post I would wager money that you've never sat in the business end of a commercial flight, let alone have enough knowledge on the subject to pass comment. Sorry, but there are just too many assumptions (and incorrect ones IMHO) in your post that lead me to think that. So, what you're saying is, flying a completely different aircraft to a Dash, as long as it it more than 10 tonnes, is ok, but one that has a MTOW of 9.9 tonnes or less doesn't give you the same skills? How about a large freighter aircraft over 10 tonnes? One sector, evening flights, only two crew onboard? Thats really helping you learn skills for an operation like FlyBe isn't it?!

Rex Banner, you talk sense! I know people who have moved onto the Dash and they say very similar things to you.

Flybe and Thomson have reached an agreement whereby experienced TOM F/Os go to Flybe on a 3 yr career break as direct entry Commanders, and Flybe F/Os go to TOM to gain experience in the RHS of a jet.

Rex does talk sense, yes, but always worth bearing in mind 5000shp assymetric will try to invert you and a 30' prop that wont feather will put you in Seneca performance territory but with 30 tons to keep aloft. 2 idiosyncrasies most bus drivers dont need a back up plan for.:)

Holy Guacamoli ...

What is wrong with you people!! A jet is a jet is a jet!!! A prop is a prop is a prop!!! they are all the same just different. I went from from a Beech Duchess to a 757 and yes it was a learning curve but bugger me it wasn't that big a deal. It took me two months to get it, are we honestly saying that someone can't come from a king air to a Q400?....... B*llocks!!!

Maybe it's about time that we (as in those who fly big jets) acknowledge the fact that any bugger can do it and stop p*ssing on the the guy who is just trying to further his career........

And Matey, i've heard that rumour also..... but come on.... who's going to swap a TOM FO jet job with all the add ons to fly as a Captain on a Dash for less dosh/ work twice as hard and be treated like !!!!!?

Ill answer that.... no one!

I'm sorry to talk so frank but it's about time those in the prop/loco brigade realise that there really is so much more available out there......

I think that one sentence sums it up perfectly!

As for the weight limitation etc, let's just say that I wouldn't want to be the person going directly into the left hand seat of a dash with 1001 PIC hours on a Chieftain/Kingair and with a brand new FO in the RHS. I agree it's not the space shuttle, and it's not that hard to fly, but I'd rather do my multi-crew airline ops learning curve from the right hand seat. I don't see the requirements as they stand as being particularly restrictive.

It might not only be about ability to handle the aircraft.

Flybe is a scheduled, passenger airline. They need a certain minimum commercial experience level in the RHS to support and assist the Captain - Not just pressurised aircraft flying experience up at FL250+, but passenger handling on busy four sector days with 1 hour turnarounds.

The Captain will need help from the RHS in managing the turnarounds, and thinking about missing pax, offloading bags, loadsheets, getting cooperation from busy handling agents, catering, wheel chair pax, tug, push back crew etc. - something you just won't get on the same magnitude with a Kingair or Chieftain* where a few pax are brought out to the aircraft together in a minibus carrying their own baggage, with some snacks in a cool box.

Such things can of course be learned, like everything else, but low cost companys cannot afford to have people who are getting to grips with flying busy commercial schedules, becoming swamped with ground handling as well, leaving the Captain to sort everything.

*(No disrespect whatsoever intended towards those who do fly such aircraft.)

That's why they do line training.

I have the good (mis) fortune to sit in the Airbus next to folk who had never flown anything 18 months ago far less a King Air or whatever .

The vast majority,you never know it . Good training and a great attitude and the basic aptitude ,With those ; anyone can fly any civil aircraft around . The whole point is that civvy flying does not require superheroes or astronauts

Eighteen years ago when Jersey European Airways first got their Dash Eight 300s they put Captains into the LHS who had only flown single crew King Air ops and had no major problems.

Any new Captain will do 100 hours on type after line training before being allowed to fly with new F/Os with less than 100 hours on type. That's all it needs. The operation is still basically double EDI or double GLA or EXT GCI JER. It's not flying the Atlantic, and as has been mentioned it's not rocket science either, even if the Q400 is a bit faster than the 300.

And yet, still no one can answer why there is a cut off at 10 tonnes?!

Some people seem to think that there are no commercially operated aircraft between a King Air and a Dash! There are vast amounts of turbo-props and jets with a MTOW less than 10 tonnes that carry multiple passengers and fly multiple legs legs each day. They also encounter weather, slot delays, PRM's, late schedules and all the other items mentioned above. And yes, why shouldn't a new Captain to an airline expect help from the RHS, that is a given in a two crew environment isn't it? The person in the RHS isn't only going to help a new Captain if he/she has come from an aircraft over 10 tonnes.

Also, people mention the difference in flying a prop that will give you Seneca performance and will try to turn you over in some scenarios. Well, again, why would someone coming from a 20 tonne or more, twin jet airliner have any more skill in dealing with that than, say, a person coming from an 8 tonne twin jet or a Piaggio?

Remember, there is ground school, sim training, line training etc etc.

I know of people that have come from operations flying aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW. None of them has found it difficult or the operation significantly different from previous operations of handling aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW.

In actual fact, they have said it is EASIER to operate for FlyBe than it has been at their previous employment, as airlines are inherently designed to run to schedules and will get priority in many cases by handling agents, airports, flow control, de-icing rigs etc.

It's about time companies like FlyBe and others in this industry that have commented above, with obvious flaws in their knowledge/appreciation of non FlyBe operations actually learn what IS required to make a good Captain in an operation like this and what others learn when operation for other companies, and not just aircraft 10 tonnes or more.

I would imagine Flybe don't really care "what IS required to make a good Captain in an operation like this", but they do have a fair idea of what is required to make a good captain in their own operation.

I understand your point and your frustration, but there has to be a cut off somewhere. I would imagine Flybe have analysed their previous recruitment successes and rejections and set their requirements (for DEC!!) accordingly. No one is suggesting that anyone is a less capable aviator simply because of the weight of their aircraft, but they have decided on a profile they are looking for - and for whatever reason they want experience on an aircraft more than 10 tonnes, to be a DEC.

Moving further along the line you'll find that Jet2 do not deem Dash 8 PIC time as good enough for their DEC recruitment profile. In fact, in the recent past this experience would only get you a 70% FO contract. Is that right? Well, again I wouldn't want to be thrown into the left hand seat of a 737 from a Dash 8 LHS no matter about ground/sim/line training. But maybe that's just me.

Lots and lots of guys and gals going LHS Q400 to LHS E195/175 here with no problems at all, some me included with no jet experience prior. I know the Ejet has a rep as "easy" but is a 737 considered really that massive a step change up? I'm genuinely interested. Anyone gone Q400-Ejet-737/A320?

Yes!......

G-DAVE

Get over yourself, as a current dash captain I've got more hours on the dash than you care to imagine. Let's keep every finger crossed that someone with your attitude isn't thinking of applying, or maybe you can't because you don't meet the minimum requirements. Shame.

Rexbanner, whilst I agree with you, it isn't the space shuttle and I never professed or even alluded to that fact. I'm just saying as a commander if you've never flown the dash it's a difficult plane to nail down if all you've flown is very small turbo props.
DooblerChina I don't think anyone is disputing that you can go from a cessna to the space shuttle as a first officer, I'm assuming your move to the 757 was not as direct entry captain? But to go from a small king air or twin piston to the dash 8 as a captain is a difficult ask, not impossible of course not, but it's a tough aircraft to get to grips with when you'll be in charge of it in the type of operation Flybe operates in, you also do not have the luxury of any experience in the right hand seat to fall back on so the buck will stop with you. We've got ex Hercules captains with us as DEC and a few of them have said they wish they did 6 months in the RHS to get used to the operation, but c'est la vie, what do I care.

Coming from a corporate aviation background and finding myself not being able to apply for certain airline jobs as the weight of the aircraft I fly is below a certain weight can be frustrating. However, I do feel flybe are quite right putting a min weight in there, as they are not recruiting for Fo, but instead for Captain. I would imagine the job to be quite demanding, flying in busy airspace, in weather and probably with inexperienced co pilots. So with the weight restrictoon they probably feel they can get the level of experience they require. I agree with what V/03 has posted. Most aircraft , we probably could all fly them with practice and just because one person says it hard, doesnt mean to say you will find it hard. But for me I would prefer to be learning/sitting in Rhs. I have just moved from Lhs to Rhs on new larger aircraft then my previous one (zero chance of me getting a direct entry command) , and love learning about new aircraft and not have the pressure that comes with being Captain.

six-sixty
Forget the Ejet at Jet 2 /Channex not a few went F27/Herald/Electra to 737.
If you can do that, or go Q400 to Ejet or Dash300 to 146/CRJ, why can't you go from King Air to Q400?

excrab - I just wanna pull you up on your comment above about the DEC we took onto the 200/300 from previous single crew positions. You say there were no major problems but, as a very experienced F/O, I was one of the poor guys that had to fly with these DECs! It took a LOT of time for them to adjust to two crew AND airline ops and CRM was often a complete nightmare, so in my book that was a major problem. They did eventually adjust but I'm with Reversethrustset in that 6 months in the right seat would have been the right way to go in their cases.

Is it not more likely that the 10 tonnes and multi crew requirements allows them to put these new captains on a zero flight time type rating and save themselves the costs of the circuits?

I think the arguments about kingairs/chieftains is all pretty null and void anyway as neither are multi crew aircraft and while any aircraft can in theory be operated multi crew, an atpl skills test has to be taken on an aircraft certified as multi crew. So presumably a lot of the people flying them are doing so whilst holding CPL's and not ATPL's and therefore don't hold an appropriate license to be the captain of a dash!

The Q400 is a horrible rancid bitch. Oh, and before I get shot down like a dash on a normal landing, I fly it.

(Pithy remarks about 'it's my landings'....whatever).

"And Matey, i've heard that rumour also..... but come on.... who's going to swap a TOM FO jet job with all the add ons to fly as a Captain on a Dash for less dosh/ work twice as hard and be treated like :mad:?"

Not a rumour, but a published notice by TOM asking for expressions of interest.

@GingerF1 :ok:

@jamestkirk, when the first Q400 - JEDI was delivered, it landed like a dream, but after about 6-12 months, its landings got more agricultural.

I noticed why this was on a walk around one day: the MLG oleo extension was much less than it had been when it was delivered, so on most landings we were now hitting the bumpstops. Other pilots and engineers were not interested in doing anything about this, so I started inventing a crosswind on every landing and landed one maingear just before the other, rather than together. This made things much more comfortable.

Can a BHX Captain describe a typical 400 roster for this base please? Night stops per block and the general pattern, also with the improved package is it still max FTL expected with lates before days off and earlies on your return?

Thanks

Good Morning,

I would also be interested to know what life is like for a BHX Q400 DEC.

Any info on the following would be great:
Likelihood of getting a BHX base
Time to upgrade for either a LTC on the Q400 or a move to the Junglejet
Number of night stops
Typical take home pay
Is it a good place to work
Anything else I should know (good and bad!)

Any info on the recruitment process would also be good to know.

Thanks

PiperX and myself need this info - can anybody help. PM if need be.

- it all depends on supply and demand. Stick your bid in and wait.
- LTC, again supply and demand and IIRC based on seniority, if two exactly similar people apply the senior one will get it. The Embraer - a long time.
- many.
- about the same as a Jet2 SFO.
- yes, you'll have a nice day out.
- you'll work your arse off doing 4-6 sector days 5 or 6 days a week 8 or 900 hours a year with well trained FOs whose command you just delayed. You will always start on an early and finish on a late usually between 2 days off giving you, essentially, one night off a week. The pension is pretty good as is staff travel (when they cba to answer a 'phone or email). They like to open and close bases on a whim (BHX should be ok ;)).

Thanks Chesty-not ideal then . So I won't delay anybody's Command, just relish my days when I flew the CRJ at JEA/ BE and keep affectionate memories to my self. A return to BHX seemed a good idea- it is the workload that is really the issue, not the salary and benifits.

LTC isn't decided on seniority anymore, it is the "best" candidate.
Just to reiterate what CM has already said I'll add my two penneth:

1. Getting a BHX base, a reasonable chance but it depends on what bases are available at the time of your job offer. If you don't get it then it shouldn't take too long but then being rock bottom of the seniority list you'll be behind every other fo waiting their commands at BHX.

2. Ejet command. Forget it, there will be 650 pilots above you, including first officers who are bidding for it, they will get it before you do, I would hazard a guess that it'll be years before you get it. I'm a year 11 dash captain and I'm barely close, however one thing is for certain, if you don't bid for it you won't get it.

3. Depends, expect about 4-6 per month

4. Typically a standard month you should see about £4k net if you're contributing to the pension.

5. Yes it's a good place to work in the fact that the people you work with are great, as cm said you'll have a nice day out. Is the grass greener? Who knows, but generally if you go elsewhere then after a while the $h!t is just a different colour.

6. As cm said, you'll work your butt off.

Good luck

Just to clarify
 

Just to clarify Flybe got rid of lates to earlies rostering around a weekend years ago so I have no idea how that's still happening. I worked there for 8 years and was generally happy - especially on the Embraer which was the best job I ever had (and I'm now at a national carrier!)

Great training, great camaraderie and people, OK salary, management same as everywhere else but generally well meaning and approachable. My biggest gripe was the number of days I spent at work on the Dash fleet - only 9 days off a month. If they'd put in say a 5/3 fixed roster pattern for full timers I might have stayed rather than the meagre 5/2 we tended to get.

At the end of the day it's certainly not the worst gig in town and the part time 70% deal of 5 on 5 off is pretty awesome (though sadly I didn't get it).