Guys, my mates inbound. Escaping the BS of asia. A change is better than no rest.

Shame that after tax for a DEC it is about 5000 pounds/ US$6500.

So sad our industry has come to this yet plenty of applicants. I wonder what the attrition rate is? With a 787 rating Vietnam pays more than double. Don't NLH have an issue with guys leaving within a short period. Even with any bond, you'd be financially ahead very very quickly.

What i have seen/heard so far there are basically three large groups of applicants who are accepting this package:
1.) F/O s mainly with 737 experience from Ryanair looking for the big shiny jet
2.) CRZ CMD mainly frustrated high seniority FO's looking for a fast uprade - stuck on the right seat for many many years -not making the move to FE/Asia - want stay in EU
3.) CMD mainly early retired CP from all majors in EU who realized that sitting at home with 56 was a bad idea and golfing isn't really that cool.

When they brief the simulator assessment they are very straight forward what they are looking for, how you work together under stress. The flying part is less interesting. The idea with smoke in cabin or a heart attack scenario is for you to safely come back as soon as possible. If you in the meantime keep the blue side up, that's all they look for flying wise. On the other hand, they have a lot of boxes to tick regarding your CRM, captaincy and communications (interpersonal). If the sim would have been about pressing buttons and reading checklist, they could have skipped it since all coming to them have a lot of hours and have done that a few times before...

They want to see that the person they meet in a relaxed interview is more or less the same they see in the simulator with (perhaps unusual) stress put on the crew. We all know that a lot of pilots change drastically when they are under stress. The question is; how do they change? In a good way or bad way.

Hi Boeing
 

This reasoning is highly questionable: there's no proof or indication that somebody that perform well in the box, with some implausible scenarios, will have the same perfomance when it's for real and vice-versa. Sometimes it's exactly the opposite: many guys that saved the day weren't aces in the box at all. After all, the box it's a little more than a big videogame.
I read some place that even heros like Sully weren't exactly sim top guns, but average guys like most of us.
What make the difference is the decison making process, which assessment is much more complex than flooding the box with thick smoke, multiple failures and shouting.
But, hey, it's aviation, where there's always somebody trying to reinvent the wheel.

Not really FullForward, the scenarios they have are not unreasonable at all, standard OPC material which any experienced pilot shouldn't have a problem with. They put together two people from different airlines, different countries, both not native english and at least one of them not current or experienced on the 737 and expect that you deal with the situation as team and are able to communicate effectively.

Time is a little bit on the short side and thats another bit pressure put on the applicant. Still better than have an experienced pilot flying raw data VOR Holdings and Course Intercepts or BS like that.

If someone needs infos on the sim session drop me a text message.
I feel happy to help today :E

I must say that I agree. The sim eval is overall a basic sim profile that any competent pilot should be able to handle. The challenge does come from, as you mentioned, the varying backgrounds, and ultimately I think that is one of the big factors they are looking at - how well you work under pressure with a person you do not know and has a different background.

Unfortunately, I think what they are "really" looking at is what has been the most scrutinised aspect of selection in most "bottom feeder" carriers this last decade or more . . . . the willingness to put forward a bank bond to cover THEIR training expenses . . . cynical ? me ? :hmm:

@ captplaystation
 

I really don't think so, since the bond is exactly what it is - money you guarantee or get back. If you pay in EUR 30,000 you will get EUR 10,000 back each year for three years. A much better deal than many other airlines where you gave to pay your bond (and sometimes not even guaranteed a job). After three years you are free to move on somewhere else if you like, and no money has to be paid. If you leave earlier, yes the bond covers a small portion of the training costs.

I think the Norwegian recruitment team are looking for future colleagues, that fit into the pilot group and work well together and that can pass the quite compressed training (if you have previous Boeing experience). Norwegian is not involved with the bond.

Perhaps viewed as a stepping stone, and then move on to somewhere with a real salary & a real roster.


https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...OB-Jobsbyemail

Yes I think they will no doubt lose guys to this contract. Even breaking any bond would be recouped in a very short space of time.

If enough guys leave, maybe they will relook at their contract terms, or maybe I'm just being incredibly naive:}

Do you know when they will base b787s at BCN?

Of course Norwegian is involved with the bond. Who do you think directs Rishworth’s broom cupboard London office and Oslo based Orient Ship Management to implement and enforce it?

To my knowledge, no other participant in the Open Skies Agreement requires its pilots provide a 30k bond for training. Many unanswered questions remain regarding what is effectively a pay-to-fly scheme (no pay=no job);

Who collects the interest from all the 30K payments?

If Norwegian terminates their contract with your employer agency for your individual services, are you still obligated to pay the bond?

A study by the EU Commission concluded:-

"The ‘dependency’ created by conditional and precarious employment arrangements could place an employer’s commercial imperatives in conflict with the pilot’s legal duty to take independent professional safety judgments before other considerations”

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/atypical_employment_two_pager_nt_15_0325_f.pdf

Additionally, how many pilots are being interviewed for a possible Cork, Ireland, 787 base with Irish employment contracts, or will pilots be bouncing all over the system as they are now?

I could be very wrong @Direct Bondi - so excuse me if I am , but I would be very surprised if it was a 787 going into Cork. Longest runway in Cork 35/17 is only 7,000ft Approx .
Shannon would be more realistic with a runway 06/24 of over 10,000ft Approx

Do you guys seriously not understand the difference between a bond and paying for the training? You are not required to pay money to anyone, you are not even required to take out a loan. A bank guarantee meets the requirements, which can be a simple line of credit extended to you by the bank that would pay Norwegian in the event you leave prior to three years. It is sort of like checking into a hotel and them running your credit card to pay for incidentals, or to guarantee the reservation. No money is actually being taken from you, but the hotel can recoup its costs in the event you cancel or run up a huge bill.

So, for those fortunate enough to own a house, you probably put your ownership of that on the line . . . for those of us not, we would have to prove to the bank that we were creditworthy enough with the woeful salary on offer . . . . banks are not quite so keen to offer any credit /guarantee as during the (imaginary ) "halcyon" days a few years back when it was still believed money grew on trees. . . . .

NEDude. I thought that one of the points of this thread was that it isn't a bond with Norwegian. It has been stated on here many times that you have to shell out €30k which is then repaid to you over 3 years.

Hilarious – let’s examine this inventive but flawed analogy;

A hotel reservation, completed guest registration and credit card details, forms a contract directly between you and the hotel. At any time during your stay you are dissatisfied with the hotel/services you have the right to complain to the manager. You also have consumer protection laws and rights via your use of a credit card. If a matter is not resolved you can check-out.

Is there a contract between the pilot and Norwegian? - Answer: No

If a pilot is dissatisfied with a roster, base reassignment, winter layoff, promised upgrade, is the victim of Norwegian’s promoted anonymous reports from a “colleague” or other unsavory matter, can that pilot complain to a Norwegian manager with protection from any adverse affect to their work circumstances and/or future with the company? – Answer: No

Can an indentured pilot ‘check-out’ from Norwegian? – Answer: Yes, it will cost 30,000.

Look at this from another angle – If conditions and treatment are so wonderful, why does Norwegian feel the need to indenture its pilots in the amount of 30K? Norwegian regularly announces it receives thousands of applications from pilots and its terms and conditions are on par with legacy airlines. Pilots at Norwegian have never had it so good (allegedly). If so, why do so many want to leave and would not recommend Norwegian?

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/...-nsker--slutte

A perfect example of 'Norwegian’s job promises versus Norwegian’s job reality' is evidenced in an interview with a Norwegian crew member on YouTube and his subsequent action. The crew member gives the distinct impression he has no use for a labor union nor their representation in his newly found Norwegian dream job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT-HkZgO10Q

At 50 seconds the crew member states: “You definitely have a much more close relationship with your co-workers and your managers”. At 1.14 he talks about his last job where he was involved with union work. After a short time at Norwegian he believes unions should not oppose nor fear the “outsourcing” of crew members. At 1.50 he informs us, “We have the same benefits a lot of the airlines in the US have fought years to get, we have that from the start”. Most notably, at 2.15 he states:

“I want to tell them [labor community/unions] there’s nothing to worry about, but that’s something they’re going to find out for themselves”

Apparently, he found out for himself. After awakening to the realities and gross hypocrisy of the Norwegian regime he became active in the formation of the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association and is now their President! - Link:

http://cabinassociation.org/

Compare his comments in the YouTube video to his comments as NCCA President in the following press release. It’s hard to believe it’s the same person:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf

“The US based cabin crew is the first work group in the Long Haul operation to unionize, but we won’t be the last. We are counting on our LGW and BKK based colleagues to step-up and unionize” - “……..with the current rate of turnover for pilots and cabin crew, they’re not geared toward success”

What happened to the 'dream job', close relationship with managers and no use for union representation?

I accept that pilots need jobs. I do not accept chumps defending Norwegian’s snake-oil and drinking Kjos Kool-Aid.

Now that they will open a longhaul base in BCN, will they make a spanish contract? Or will they keep you on the same UK contract?

^important!

I think they are not serious, AT ALL.

Several friends of mine, flying the 777 as FO and cruise relief captian in a major company with at least 3 years of long haul experience and more than 6000 hrs total flight time went for the interview for CAPTAIN RELIEF position.....

during the interview they were even told that being cruise relief captain they should espect after 1 year to be upgraded to Cpt....

all went good, very good.... they passed the interview and they received the email with the offer for FO position!!!!

Of course they refused. I do not understand, if I apply for Capt relief why offer me a job as FO? If I do not perform well in the interview just tell me that i am not maybe ready to be relief captain or fail me, They should speak clear...I know many who got same treatment and apparently they are offering this position to captains coming from FR..

Furthermore, a friend of mine passed the interview as I said, so He replied to them asking why he was offered a FO position if all went good and He applied as Relief CPT....they did not reply for 3 days and then he received another e-mail stating they are sorry but he did not pass the assessment!!! Amazing! How can I trust a Company if they treat you in this way before joining the them!!!

Far from them!

What O’Leary says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFYWbCw-T7M

Hence the reason I used the phrasing "sort of like" instead of "exactly like". Perhaps you need an English refresher...

Depending on the terms of the reservation with the hotel, you may be charged fully or partially for the entire duration of your reservation, regardless of whether you stay the full time or check out early.

Thank you for highlighting the unsavory conditions at Norwegian, above.

Perhaps one day, you and your kind may provide a more convincing argument in defending the regime - that would indeed be refreshing.

Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:

The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".

Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.

Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.

Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.

Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.

So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market.

Here is a piece of advice I got from an acquaintance of mine. At 25 years old he was hired by PeoplExpress and is now a senior 777 captain at United based in EWR. When he was hired at PeoplExpress, friends and acquaintances of his that got hired at PanAm, TWA and Eastern all accused him of lowering the bar. He has ended up having a nice and relatively steady career, while most of them have ended up bouncing around with several different airlines. His advice to me was to always take the best available offer that you have, even if it may not be the best job out there. Because you have no way of knowing what will happen over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. What may be a crap job today can end up being the best job in 20 years, and the best job today may not exist in 20 years.

"Good point well made" as they say . . . best of luck to those who roll the dice

(fortunately the rating & a bit of experience will give you a joker card or two in the deck https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-09-03 )

NEDude;

After 33 years flying transport category jets all over the world, including flying in the US during the Lorenzo and Icahn 80’s, I do not need your advice on this, nor any other matter. Thank you very much. You are entitled to your opinion.

Quote:

---

Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition

---

Via his novel and complex labor model, Kjos has introduced the “innovation” of circumventing labor laws, labor rights and labor principles for pilots and cabin crew flying with most of his airline divisions, and in some instances charging pilots 30K for the privilege!

Defending Norwegian’s abhorrent regime on the pretense of innovation and that it may be the best job in 20 years, is neither legitimate nor palatable.

Norwegian takes advantage of a broken relationship:

“Actor. LA. Newly single. Seeks likeminded partner with GSOH”

http://www.cntraveler.com/story/merciless-norwegian-air-jumps-on-brangelina-breakup-with-new-ad

A similar ad might read:

“Pilot seeks airline direct employment relationship, long-term, 787 position at LGW. No training payment ransom. Management integrity and competence essential”

At present, Norwegian does not meet all the prerequisites.

Yep, loved the ad, as did many others which is why it went viral. Fantastic marketing.

Seriously, get another hobby...

“Fantastic marketing” was last week. Today, Saturday, October 1st, Norwegian is once again leaving passengers distraught and stranded due to lack of crew:

http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/norwegian-kunder-fortviler-mangler-personell-kansellerer-ruter/23809012

“Lack of crew and standby crew causes Norwegian to cancel flights to and from Spain”

Ferielystne nordmenn raser etter Norwegian-kanselleringer: ? Håpløst! - Norwegian Air Shuttle - VG

Another episode in Bondi's personal war against Norwegian, but why ?

Because he's right.

I think he is trying to save a few good men and woman making a wrong decision in joining an agency who is employing contractors to operate Norwegian planes. Either under Irish, UK or Norwegian registration. If you speak up a bit about anything (20 days away from home in a row? Bad sick pay? Floating bases? Clowns in management bending the rules to upgrade themselves ahead of the group, and changing the rules after their own upgrade) within the company you are thrown out after your 2-3 year contract.

UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?

Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.

I think you should check your sources to come up with some facts instead of hearsay.

- Cant really comment about management but to be honest, but some hearsay about pilots bitching about management decisions I've heard literally about every airline on this planet, from Loco to Legacy.
-Afaik, everybody whose 3year contract ended got a new permanent contract with OSM and wasn't thrown out
-20 days away from home, not really from what i have seen so far. Might have been like that in the beginning but now, this seems to be the very rare exception and certainly not the norm.
-What are floating bases you talk about? The contract says base LGW and thats it. Of course you will fly from other bases but in that case they arrange travel between London and whatever place you fly from, including travel days. Just like in every other airline.
-Everybody living in the UK will pay UK taxes in full! Everybody not living in the UK will pay taxes according to the bilateral agreement between the UK and the country of living.

Parkbremse:

Regarding the "bitching" of management You can just read up on all the cases they have won in court: Pilot group 9, management 0! More to follow...

I have heard from friends inside Norwegian that lots of changes are happening to the basing situation.

Could be interesting to see what happens.

I work at Bondi´s favourite airline.
1) I am not away 20 days in a row. Minimum trip 3 days, maximum 7. Unless you commute from a less accessible area of the world.
2) 30 days sick leave. Do you need more?
3) Base policy changing to a mix of bidding between fixed, floating or gateway.
4) Clowns in management! Sure there are. I just haven´t met them yet.
5) Everybody gets their contracts renewed. We need them.
6) Taxes payed in UK or your country of residence.

So far I have only encountered nice and friendly and easygoing people. Every scheduling request has been awarded. Just the few usual complaints.
I am very happy with my choice. If you feel repulsed by my airline, try and take a wild guess at what my advice to you would be!

Bunkbastard,

Is it possible to choose not being based in LGW but to a have specific gateway to start your duty? So it means you can commute?

Connected with point 3) above? No based at LGW you pay taxes on your home base?

Thanks

The new base policy has not been finalised yet, but this is what we expect. Should make it much easier to commute.
Regarding taxes, you will have to talk to someone more competent than me.