No I do not think I would have turned down such an offer when I was a low type pilot if it fell on my lap. But I would have NEVER gone into debt with TR and Line flying in order to chase such a job.

I am not attacking any individuals pilots here, and I am ready to accept that cadets and certain P2F pilots are capable of doing a fine job.

Someone stated that the French pilot that was killed in Libya was a P2F. I Google him and found he was a 48 year old French Air Force pilot who had recently retired after more that 25 years in the Air Force. He had flown the Alpha Jet and the Mirage F1. If such pilots have to resort to paying their own type ratings and then going the P2F route to secure employment, something is very rotten in the system and it needs to be fixed.

D&F

I have a lot of sympathy with what you say, but unfortunately the reality is that when you say:
It would appear that is no longer the case more and more.The worlds most iconic and profitable foot ware company (tick) aren't putting those expensive trainers together in Oregon, they are using factories in South East Asia that don't appear to be given great prominence on their corporate website. Similarly, those expensive (fruit logoed) communicators of universal desire, don't appear to be assembled in the colourful corporate palaces depicted in California.

Companies these days are driven by "cost" and that is what we are. Their idea of a level playing field is to level that playing field with the cheapest "cost" base to be found in their competitive neighbourhood. Neither can they rest there. In order to find an advantage, the necessity is to undercut the competition. Obviously the laws of supply and demand won't permit that if there is a labour shortage, but of course the reality is that there is no shortage at all in all but a few highly selective markets.

The cadet pilot doesn't remain a cadet pilot. End of year 1 (1000 hours).....year 2 (1800 hours).....year 3 (2700 hours)..... year 4 (3500 hours)..... and now they are in command territory! Either that, or 12 months previously they packed their bags for the sandpit.

As for pensions? There is a pot of coffee few people have woken up to smell. For todays young cadet in their early twenties maximising their pension savings and life time allowances, they are looking a potential top tier (for them and their partner) of little more than £3000 per Month in todays money. For those people that think "well that doesn't sound too bad" start now! Because those figure fall sharply if you put off saving early and probably well in excess of 10 % of your net earnings, and on the assumption that your employer contributes at least as much.

Of course this isn't simply commercial aviation, it is nearly all businesses. When I look at my kids on zero hour contracts, falling wages, or on wages that will never buy a house anywhere South of Lincolnshire, or unemployed. It is ugly, and I worry that is only going to get uglier!

Beazebub, I do agree with you but my problem is that corporate management greed has become endemic. How much is Caroline mcwhatsherface earning, share and dividend payouts?

There is a new greed that has taken over and it's not about profitability in a difficult market place. It is a white collar/blouse greed based on :mad: over the staff.
As I said on a previous post, victorian practices have returned and a union of almighty proportions is needed to swing the pendulum. I am not a union fan and found my Balpa subs to be a total waste of cash.
Maybe the answer is a totally new pilot Union with 100% of UK pilots as members for lobbing purposes and group action. Bonding pilots or even making them pay at cost only would seem a minimum but huge sums for the profit of a certain training provider, not on I think. Again it's all about a feast at the trough and the piggies remain hungry. And the stupid, rich or just desperate are easy pickings. Any one remember Fred the Shread?

Interesting program on BBC The super rich and us, about how we don't tax the mega rich too much as they are perceived to create drip down of cash into the bigger society. Well it seems the cash drips more sideways than down. The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. Middle class was the driver of society due to the large numbers of reasonably good earners paying a large amount of tax.

Low cos are making money, the profits are tangible and not wafer thin. This is accountancy. Find a cost and then find a way to cut it to the bone.

If you want a career in aviation, then the tide of fresh meat has to be stemmed. It's not about pay to fly it's about pay us and stop lying.

Jeez I've gone right off on one tonight!

Whilst John-Smith is not wrong in that he describes it as it is, this does not take away from the fact the process is rotten to the core. Deep and fast identifies the issues well and it is difficult to argue, and we shouldn't. I referred to RBS in an earlier post in this thread and D and f does the same. This is a company that put profit as its sole agenda item and the way Fred did that was by buying his exec team with huge bonuses. He was protected from the realities of the world in the knowledge he had a layer or two of greedy bast**** to buffer him. That company paid no attention whatsoever to employment and consumer protection legislation and is now paying the price. It only exists because of you and me. They have moved all their IT work to India when the expertise is here. Why, because it is cheap. Result, regular service failure. Some/many airlines are following the same path. John-Smith is right when he says they are putting profit as their only driving force BUT is wrong when he says this is their only obligation. They have obligations to staff and customers that is enshrined in legislation and will one day pay the price if they take their contempt for it too far.

Well if the ceos want to b so militant in the treatment of their staff in an unionised industry then I guess we have to be militant in return.

Industrial action is the answer if john smith is correct Ian's the constant attack is to be stopped.

It always amaze me, many pilots have a university degree, some are engineers, lawyers, teachers, some have a business background and most can work in difficult conditions and adapt to the needs of industry.

But, when it come to all get along an find solutions to actual work conditions, we say it is capitalism, short term profits and we are the victims of the system. :{

Multiple internet groups have started lately, pilot organisations are growing in many countries, petitions/letters to the politicians, many resources are available to the pilots. Last time I checked we are still living in a democracy. (Excluding Asia).

Airlines that perform the best on long term, are those who accept that employees are part of business success.

-438 posts: :}


And there you have it folks... another individual who is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. -438 is OK with lowering the bar.:=

From Wikipedia

What exactly is an experienced second officer at EasyJet ?

A second officer at Easyjet is a first officer who is paid less than a first officer.

As for an investigation into the safety record of P2F pilots, to do this you would need access to all participating companies ASR and flight QAR data and I'm sure as hell they would not give access to this.

Children of the Magenta
 

Wake up guys, don' t you understand that this is plain and simple capitalism? Honestly, once you base a system with profit being king, what should stop a company to hire people on internships instead of payed contracts, and why should an airline not have pay to fly if that increases profits?
It' s a lost battle, a waste of time, all these discussions, all these groups. You have to look at the problem at the source, and that is the system we are living in. We are all part of it when we take up a mortgage, when we buy a useless new car, or an even more useless hi tech gadget.
I'm sorry to say that all of this is a logical consequence of a well estabilished system, and we are in no position to change it.

Well it's a version of capitalism. Left on there own without interference, markets will come up with all sorts of perverse and self destructive schemes; look at the collapse of the banking system. Not exactly a great ad for unrestrained markets.

P2F is not as great an idea for the airlines as they think it is. Not all have a job that pilots want to buy. Worst of all (for the airlines), if the aim is to get pilot income levels down, P2F schemes would not be viable as there would be fewer pilots willing to pay through the nose if peak Captain earnings were £40k

Bringbackthe80s

Maybe it's time to bring back the 70s. Strikes and militant buggers like red robbo and Bob Crowe

Physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Bringbackthe80s. It is not capitalism pure and simple. Every company in every industry in the western world is working within a capitalist system but they do not all screw their workforce to maximise profit. It is airlines with their partners who have deliberately created an over supply of pilot fodder whilst making a profit doing it then using that over supply to screw the rest. That is market manipulation and is exactly what did for the finance industry in the end.

30k for an embraer145 type rating, you would need to be smoking crack to think that's a good investment.

Ryanair is starting to look like a reasonable option now and I never thought I'd say that!

Really? oh so I' m sure the jeans or the t-shirt you are wearing were made by happy workers on a really nice contract with good pensions waiting for them in a few decades. Not by overworked, rightless south asian possibly underaged poor people. But sure plenty of company in the western world wouldn't use such factories, they wouldn't shut production in the west to maximise it in 3rd world countries. And surely the system we created doesn't allow it does it.
And frankly, when you have a little glimpse at these realities, then pay to fly as bad as it is, comes at least well after other problems doesn't it...And like I said before all of these things are a consequence of the same source, they are all connected. You can't fight pay to fly under the very system that encourages it.

Firstly low hour pilots.
BA for many years sponsored and then employed cadets without any problems at all. These cadets finished integrated courses with a fatpl and sub 300 ( now I belive sub 200) hours. They went on to be employed as fo on potentially any of the ba fleets, eventually gaining commands all without any problems.
Low hours by itself is not the problem, its the training environment and the company culture that counts.
Giles - single pilot commercial operations are inevitable a higher risk, possibly streaching it a bit, but like natural selection, the survivors have good skills and luck those who don't generally die out.

Sadly the opportunities for getting on such schemes is minimal, the traditional routes in Europe are now dead ends and so the only practical way into aviation is through the various schemes operated by the schools and certain airlines. That many of the schemes are ripoffs and exploitation, that the majority here disagree with, is immaterial. They are here to stay barring legislation forcing companies to change their hiring policies.

P2F - are we able after X many pages able to agree on what is p2f?
For all these paying means candidate buys product paying full fees themselves through cash or loan with no money returned after completion. Salary does not count as mon3y returned.
Paying for initial training to FATPL level?
Paying for type rating?
Paying for line training?
Paying for 500 hours?

Paying for type rating but refunded payment after a period of time eg 3 years?
Reduced salary during training?
Short term contracts for non type rated fo's? Eg 6months usually in combination with most of the above!

Thoughts ideas welcome.

The problem is not exactly PTF.

In the "good old days" only 1 in 7 (for my company) or 1 in 10, or whatever, of finalists in airline interviewing got a job!:ooh:
(Maybe 1 in 50-100 of initial applicants)

The others flew for "lesser" carriers or gave up and became lawyers, bankers etc.

These days anyone with the money and a pulse can get a job.:hmm:

Hopefully the rash of "just cannot fly" accidents around the world will gradually bring change.:ok:

PT6
Agreed, BA have had cadets and all was well. But BA have an excellent training department and also the cadets were of small numbers mixed in with DEP from civil and military. The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.

As I said, any statement regarding them as safe can only be made when a full,audit of ASR and QAR safety data confirms this. How many issues/incidents are put into the ongoing training to final line check or flight ops errors that are headed off by the experienced captains.

Just because we don't here horror stories doesn't mean all is perfect. For balance I will say that experienced guys may well have issues as well. Only the data knows the full story.