Unfortunately there are too many people in the world willing to pay for it.

And as long as there are, they ruin Ts&Cs for the rest of the industry.

The airlines are businesses and businesses tend to lack ethics, they're very short sighted when it comes to "the right thing to do" and instead get distracted by money.

vietjet, their agent n staff asked 110k usd for sucessfully enter the cadet pilot programme.

Pay2fly schemes have been recognized as having an adverse affect on aviation safety in an EU Commission funded, 310-page report on Atypical Employment in Aviation (large file) – Link:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf

Incorrect. Unless you hold the applicable type rating you will not fly for Norwegian unless you hand over 30-40K. No pay, no fly, i.e. a pay2fly scheme - and who benefits from the interest on the 1.2 million Euros being held from such payments to fly for Norwegian?

Correct. This is why the Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies) was negotiated to include a ‘social clause’ - Article 17, which states labor rights and labor principles shall not be undermined by the participants. A petition on these grounds is has been filed in the Washington DC Court of Appeals against the DOT and its egregious decision to award Norwegian a Foreign Air Carrier permit.

Does paying for your own type-rating with no guarantee of a job count? You could scrape past the LST at your own cost only to fail the base training within the allocated time and end up with no type rating or job. If you do pass these hurdles does working on a reduced salary during line training, and having to pay all your own expenses, count as paying to fly.
If so I think you'll find the net is wider than you surmise, but stealthily.

Bondi, NAS is NOT PAY TO FLY and never has been.. PTF mean you pay them to fly the a/c and they give you nothing in return.. unless I'm mistaken NAS crews have always received remuneration.. whichever source it comes from. Paying a bond or type rating is not regarded as ptf

Using this argument it can be said that nearly every pilot in history is pay2fly then. Why? well most paid for a ppl, paid for the hour building, paid for the IR etc.

We all know that is not what pay2fly is.

It is specifically paying for your line training or paying to fly a set number of hours with passengers onboard. Let's not muddy a very clear boundary.

Pilots pay for necessary qualifications via an ATO or similar. No commitment to the training organization is required.

Possibly not pay2fly as known. The Norwegian scheme is effectively a 30-40K indentured servitude from the non-rated. Do the indentured receive interest over the 3-year repayment period or nothing in the form of interest in return?

Rishworth currently holds Euros 1.2 million in ‘pay before flying’ payments on behalf of its West Sussex village subsidiary, Global Crew UK – read Full Accounts up to 31 March, 2016, Section 9 - Link:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Once again, who benefits from the interest on the 1.2 million?

Bondi, although in the past you have made some valid observations I think this "interest " issue is diluting your credibility somewhat, if 1.2M euros is held in a " Client " account, as legally required in EU, at current interest rates of .05% that would yield 600 euro a year interest. Divide that by 40 pilots is 15 Euros a pilot, lee the cost of a bank transfer to get it.. If you examine the accounts in detail you will not there is no mention of interest received.

The credibility of an airline is diluted when they sell a dream career in aviation while requiring a 30-40K training payment to prevent pilots escaping the nightmare of its job security fear culture.

The “interest” is indeed an issue, particularly for those paying rather than receiving interest.

The vast majority of pilots will not have 30-40K readily available for Norwegian’s ‘pay before flying’ scheme. Several UK banks currently offer a 35K loan at 7.3% interest with GBP 1,081 monthly payments (x36 months, 40K total repayment).

The Global Crew declared 1.2 million in ‘pay before flying’ cash may not be held the EU. If so, it is not subject to EU regulations:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Global Crew Filing history – 4 August 2016 - Section 9 states:
“These funds are held by the Company’s parent undertaking, Rishworth Aviation Ltd, on behalf of Global Crew UK Ltd.”

Section 14 states:
“The Company [Global Crew UK Ltd.] does not have a bank account, therefore, all income and expenditures are collected or incurred by other group companies”

The person having “significant control” of Global UK Ltd, is located in New Zealand:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...43804/officers

So, while “someone” may be collecting huge amounts in interest on over a million in ‘pay before flying’ payments held outside the EU, the chumps that handed over 30-40K receive no interest whatsoever, but have GBP 1,081 monthly payments for three years at 7.3% interest – with no direct employment relationship and associated labor rights with the airline!

At least try to get some of the facts right Bondi.

It's 30000 euros not pounds. So about 26000 pounds.

And you're doing really really badly if you're only able to get a loan at 7.3 percent. I did a very quick search and 3.3 seemed to be much more representative.

But hey never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

And no I don't work for Norwegian or Rishworth or OSM. Never have. But the picture you try to paint is very different from the one my friends who do actually work there. No it's not perfect but it's not Pay to Fly.

Well, if you have to give the company that "hires" you money, it is pay to flay, after all you have to pay them first. Real employers pay you first, they still might insist on a bond, but that is not money up front, only have to pay that if you leave earlier than the bond expires. Over here more than 12 months would probably not hold in a court of law, although some CLAs have 24 months in them.

Sorry, but what is not Pay to Fly about paying £26000 up front to OSM/Norwegian.

Because a) you don't have to if you can get a bank guarantee and b) you get the money back including interest (an addmitedly measly sum but so is all interest).

It's not ideal. For some it's a stepping stone, for some it's a way home and for others it's a way out of where they are now.

Personally unless necessity dictates otherwise I wouldn't go there. But I know several people who have and none of them have regretted it.

Although the real argument I wanted to make is if you're going to use figures to bolster your argument at least make sure they're accurate.

confused, is paying for your TR considered Pay-to-fly?

It is when the TR costs 2 to 3 times the market rate.
You essentially end up paying for some of your zero flight time.

ok, still paying i suppose but whom am i to judge...

Any payment after becoming qualified to work (ie CPL MEIR) should be considered as pay to fly.

You have done your part in getting qualified, just like a law student, a medical student or an engineering student. Though your bills were most likely much higher :}

What happens with PSV & HGV non-rated cadets? They have a 'driving licence' but not the type. How's it for them? I'm not advocating paying up front; bonding, with full salary, seems reasonable. It's not easy to compare with other industries, e.g. train drivers, ships' captains etc. I suspect not many of us have knowledge of those industries.

Still a lot of airlines, i.e. the flag carriers do pay for everything but the airline industry has changed so much since those days for e.g. it has become a lot affordable to travel, increase in airline numbers esp. lo-co, pilots, traffic, so on and so forth.

Perhaps, that has enabled the airlines to 'do whatever they like' i.e. charging for TR, line-training taking advantage of the number of unemployed low-houred pilots out there. They (airlines) have a greater bargaining power. #porters-5-forces

Sadly, this has become a norm and in my humble opinion is considered a shadow industry where revenue is generated through an exploitation. (Hope this doesn't sound very harsh).

Fair or not fair in comparing other industries isn't really relevant here because wether paying for TR or interview assessment is considered paying...? I.e. Does a HR personnel have to pay to get an interview at an airline?
:confused:

Does a HR personnel have to pay to get an interview at an airline?

Very good point. Who else other than pilots have to pay to apply for a job? You pay and still might not be interviewed. How is it with cabin crew & engineers? What about ground/office staff, even managers?