We must remember that companies do earn a crust from us coming to work, we are not just a perpetual drain on financial reserves for no reason.

Every other industry I can think of sets their prices according to their costs and expected reasonable profit. It's called a business model. Training costs are part of that model and are taken into account when setting prices. It is well understood, in the airlines I've been involved with, that a 10% per annum attrition rate is the norm. This is based on retirement, medical and 'moving on'. It is budgeted for in the training/recruitment model. What has happened is that the rapid vast expansion has been based on low prices. It could be discussed that it has been a price driven expansion not a demand driven one. It has become so cheap it is too good to miss. Rather than drive to the local beach let's go to a foreign one; or foreign mountains. To maintain this profit driven, rather than service driven industry, costs have had to be driven to the lowest. Think Tescos/Liddle/Aldi of the airline world. The start point is training costs. The next point is keep everything as basic as legally necessary and make it as safe as possible. (I still say this model would not have been possible in B727/737 days. SOP trained monkeys wouldn't have cut it.) Now the public are so used to cheap everything, they'd even load their own bags if they had to. I remember a time in 80's where charter pax picked up a lunch bag as they boarded the a/c instead of catered food. It was too expensive to serve hot on board. The genie/toothpaste can not be put back in the bottle. I still fly national carriers, often at cheaper prices than the local LoCo. The market has caused a response and the nationals have responded. They still make profits; might be cross-subsidised, I don't care. I get national carrier service (sandwich only) at LoCo prices. Salaries have not been slashed across the more realistic flexibly minded nationals. They are expanding and profiting. LoCo is not the only way to go. And I don't think the nationals have gone down the P2F route, yet. So there is another way. Let's not just assume there is only one working model. Tesco is no longer the only market leader.

I had it in my mind that a BA cadet had to put £94,000 up front?

JW, my comment about mobility was in response to the comment about 100 pilots leaving. If company don't want em to leave then tie em in. Chinese airlines have lifetime bonds :}

Got to laugh really.:p

I am being put in a postion where I am being forced to bond for a renewal which is $40,000. Or no job. Never been bonded in my life before. What am I supposed to do now!!

Companies only rid themselves of profitable practices if the PR is likely to make the practice unprofitable.

It's not what they do, it's what they are seen to be doing that counts.

P2f
 

Here in India , paying for your type rating or the company asking candidates to pay bank guarantees after selection towards training ("type rating costs") has become the norm.Paying for Line training hasnt caught on yet but there's a startup FLYEASY advertising the same for their Embraers.

With the huge glut of unemployed CPL holders( around 5000+) with no viable GA or other options for employment , they have become the cash cow airlines within India and outside are looking at greedily. Lion Air did have an Indian rep to recruit P2F candidates specifically from India .Many of these pilots have now returned with 1000 hrs P2 experience on the B737 to be hired by airlines like ours (Jet Airways) as P2's.

I flew with one of these P2's recently , a cheerful guy and we were paired on a few layover flights together.The stories he had to say about the Lion Air experience was shocking to say the least. Abuse of employees by the middleman contractor from India ( Lion Air paid the contractor x and they got 50% x ) , training and safety standards were basic to say the least and they had to fight their way out of the middleman's clutches to return from the "contract".It's like slavery .

Although I'm totally against P2F , I can see how candidates get attracted to these outfits, this P2 would otherwise be twiddling his thumbs at home had he not taken this drastic route , of course he had the support of his parents as do most Indians :bored:

The way forward is for airline pilot's bodies like ALPA worldwide in co-ordination with airline unions take a united stand against P2F .They can make media campaigns on the same to educate the public too on the hazards of P2F for their safety and believe me , today passengers do care with the rash of incidents that have happened, not that every one of those can be attributed to this menace.

let's say no to P2F :=

Here is Canada, the practice of paying for your own type rating has not been imported yet, just certain companies have new pilots sign bonds.
There were cases where the pilots were made to take personal loans which were co-signed and re-paid by the airline, as long as the candidate remained employed.......

The practice of getting paid less does not exist. After the type rating, new pilots have to do 25 of line indoctrination if they have flown similar aircraft and 100 hours if the pilot is for example new on large jets. Sometimes he/she is paid less during that period because he/she has to fly with a check pilot who is paid extra do do that job, but once the pilots is released after his 25 or 100 hours, he/she goes on regular pay for he now flies with regular line captains on regular revenue flights. What justification would there be for him to be paid less ?

The concept of second officer on aircraft which have no first officer, or of junior first officer does not exist in this country.

Right said
 

Giles-hudicourt,

I Support any word you just said... I wish people like you are on management positions such as head of training or head of operations..chief pilots..

Usually these functions are given to top management marionettes, people who are on those positions for ther own gain.. Unfortunately not collective gain.

Luckily, they dont last that long, but anyway make a lot of damage in interpersonal relations within their sector that manage.

Lufthansa
 

I have talked to some pilots from Lufthansa. Please LH people correct me i i have misinterpreted what they have said to me.. Anyway, this is pretty much moddel in Lufthansa a.g.

They have opening for cca 200-300 hundred fos every few years.

Requrements is to pass all the test (dlr, general tech knowledge, medical...)

After that, if you succeed, they send you to LH interkokpit for integral flight training to gain ATPL (f) CPL ME IR, than you get MCC and JOC on CJ2 (sym and aircraft).

After you have finished all of it (cca 2 years or less) you wait for your type rating on A320 (before was either 320'or 737, but 737 is in phase out).

After you finish your type rating you start flying and getting your fo salary.. Withing 2/3 years you are on 330/340, later on 380, 747..

After maybe 8-12 years, you switch to left seat from 320 and climb all that leaders again from the left side.. By the late 30ies or early 40ies you are cpt in widebody in a magnificent company.

And now price tag of that? 180.000 euro.

After you are accepted, before atpl (f) cpl me ir mcc joc training, you have to pay 1/3 which is 60.000 euros. Lufthansa covers 60.000 euros. Rest of 60.000 is coverd by pilots after he or she gets release and starts geting his/her salary (through 5 years).

Any type change is of course coverd by the companie (there is bond of course).

Similar is in Swiss.

I beleive thats good story.

The other point with LH is that a very large number of young pilots were hired into the group over the last ten years. If you combine that with hundreds on the waiting list and current management's strategy of moving flying to cheaper parts of the organisation or even outsourcing then career prospects look a little less optimistic.

But a career in Lufthansa offers various types of flying from short haul to long and aircraft types from 320 up to 380 etc. this gives options and the ability to create a change of working scenery. All a bit different to constant four sector days in a 320 or 737 to the same destinations till you either die of boredom or just die from fatigue aerotoxic syndrome brain tumour or any other one of the things that seem to kill off pilots!

The current low cost business model of companies is based on greed and funnelling the money to the top management and to a lesser degree shareholders. The legacy companies are having to cut costs to try and keep up. We shouldn't let these airline bloodsuckers champagne it up on our expense.

Watch the BBC program "The super rich and us" episode 2 just about sums it up!

For anyone with a foot on the LH ladder it is certainly good. But the signs are that for everyone else it will be at best a longish wait at Eurowings as it is called this week and that certainly involves 320 multileg days for the foreseable future.

Here is a link to Baltic Aviation Academy's website, and this how they justify P2F. In my opinion it is absolute unadulterated rubbish, and how and why people believe it is beyond me.

Line Training: to pay or not to pay?

Moroccan pilots
 

Hi, I'm a Moroccan student pilot and I'm very upset with this situatio because I can't work in my own country. Royal Air Maroc imposes very hard requirements to Moroccans candidates and many pilots are sitted waiting to have an opportunity in Air Arabia. However, RAM have a lot of foreign F/O in their 737 and ATR who paid for a Line Training !!

I can't understand this situation. I'm afraid to leave my country forever.

First thing first: welcome in the club. Now move on and join the cue.

Who do you thing should carry the can for having induced the situation you are in?

Kalim, it is the same situation in others countries.(except North America)
In Asia for exemple (Vietnam, China...), you would pay money to fly or even to upgrade from F/O to Captain.
Just yesterday, I received a resume and letter (actually it's not the first time that I read such propositions ),
a guy wrote that he does not have money to pay the LT however he is ready to fly without income in exchange for a few months or so according to the amount of the LT.
He is not even interesting for us since we still have others pilots willing to pay.
I do not really approve the P2F but as I notice from there now, pilots are their own ennemies after all...so... when you read cover letters, your first face would be then and when you get used to it :

Eaglejet are currently offering pilots to pay for 1000 hours + on the CRJ900. It's an EASA airline.

Does anyone have an insight on which airline that is?

Gilles,

You wrote:

In the 17th and 18th century, many armies were led by officers that had not gained their military commissions through merit and experience, but paid for them. There was a price to become a Lieutenant, a Captain, a Major, a Colonel, not only to join the military, but also to get promotions once you were in. The richer people were always in command of the poor. This practice of selling military commissions has ceased in most modern countries now. Anyone care to take a wild guess on why this practice has ceased ?,

Wild guess? Well has it ceased? In 'modern' countries? For my money, any one that pays for a battle commission is welcome to the fate of their decision, though George Washington did get to keep the farm at Mt. Vernon.

During the period you mention, there were no standing armies. Company officers recruited private (for pay) soldiers in times that required "defense". Voluntary milita was largely without stipend. Today, however, every 'nation' seems to have one ...i.e. standing military force (Costa Rica is now one notable peaceful exception)

Today we (the poor taxpayers) pay an exorbitant amount for initial (even more for advanced) training for military pilots, and yet you seem to suggest that any young inexperienced guy or girl who wants to pay the market rate to change his or her profession voluntarily should be excluded from the industry by forceful regulation? That did not even work in 'modern' times. Former USSR springs to mind.

Governments will always distort markets, and as you know airlines love military pilots, who of course are extremely well trained. From an airlines point of view government training is simply a most welcome "P2F" taxpayer subsidy.

On the military note, now that almost every country has a permanent big swinging d..k..one, ..oddly enough......we seem to have a lot more wars.

has Anyone knows last Eaglejet program for B737cl?
which is the company? Europe base state!

IS GRan Cru Airlines, in Vilnius Lithuania, just 3 A/C, 1 -300 and 2-400,
If I was you, I will stay very far away from this crap!