Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
 

I think we should make an updated and current list of airlines whose pilots gained access to their flight deck seat by paying a large sum of money to the airline whose aircraft they fly, or to a third party that has an agreement with said airline.

I am not referring here to airlines that have corrupt employees who take personal bribes from pilot candidates before accepting them on a course, which is common in certain areas of the world, but about airlines whose official policy is to hire pilots who accept to pay a large amount of money for either their type rating, for their line training, or in some cases for both.

We should list those that do it directly with the candidate, and those that do it through a third party, whether an agency, a flight training company and disguise the practice as "training".

Airlines that re-reimburse the whole training cost to the pilots should not be included. Others that reimburse part of the cost but keep a portion, or allow to keep the school or hiring agency to keep a large sum, should be included.

Of course we must not include airlines that hired non pilots and trained them, but only airlines that do this to candidates who are already in possession of a pilots licence, and sometimes even a type rating.

Would also like to hear about airlines that used to make pilots pay to fly but have since discontinued the practice, and why, and also about airlines that did not do this in the past, but now engage in this practice.

Some airlines can't be named on pprune. Just like "that play written by Shakespeare".

MOL has a lot to answer for

RyanAir seems to be one that fits the description:

https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6

Good plan Gilles,

About Ryan Air , that one does not fit the real description . There you pay for your own TR. Agree with that, but then you GET paid to fly for them.

P2F is where you pay for own TR+LT. And now days no salary during LT.

But further I support your plan.

Ok, they make you pay the type rating. But what about this part:

After paying the 28,500 Euros, it says:

How often are successful candidates not hired by the "contract pilot agency" after spending the money ? How often are they hired for a short while and then let go for no apparent reason ?

Can P2F airlines be discussed here or not ?
 

Why did I just post something about P2F airlines, just to see it instantly moved to the "Wannabes Forums" ? I am not a Wannabee. I am a 15,000+ hour airline pilot employed at the same airline for the past 16 years but who wants to discuss the P2F issue in World airlines. I think its a problem that needs to be discussed and that it should not just be of concern to Wananbee pilots, especially in light of recent high profile accidents that may have involved P2F pilots.

The Urban dictionary describes "P2F" like this:


Is P2F a "dirty little secret" on this Forum also ?

P40Warhawk wrote that Ryan Air charges for expensive Type Ratings but that the pilots do not pay for line flying, and that they are paid to fly, so that this airline does not fit the definition of P2F.

He also wrote about chances of getting hired after the training:

In Ryanair, the deal is that you get taken on as a contractor on a multiple year contract with an established agency when you start your type rating. The costs incurred are offset against tax over the following years.

However, you do have to find a large lump sum up front to pay for your type rating. The only time you would be binned is for lack of ability.

It is not P2F in the sense that you pay for a rating and 300h LT and you are out at the end as Norwegian are offering at the moment.

Name and Shame:ok:

Any details on Norwegian ?

For all its faults and bad treatment of staff, RYR don't do this. Giles and smudger, do your homework before you throw accusations. Look a little closer to home at the orange outfit - I don't know if they still do it, but they had P2F through CTC. Funny how they are portrayed as saints all the time, despite behaving so dispicably.

I think this was discussed. They charge this:

https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6

but then do not charge any further for line training, and also pay the pilots who are on line.

Self-sponsored type rating sadly is the norm these days. It is not remotely the same as P2F, which starts with a self sponsored type rating and then a contracted period where the pilot pays the airline for line training and experience, typically about £10k for six months. This clearly is not P2F.

What is poor about the RYR scheme is running the selection panel at a profit and employing the cadets on zero-hour contracts.

Very interesting info. EasyJet tried P2F and rejected it. Now they require a large "Security deposit" which is re-imbursed over 7 years.

RyanAir just charges a large sum for the type rating.

What other companies (Wordwide) do P2F these days. Any details please ?

AIR BALTIC
ROYAL AIR MAROC
GERMANIA
TUNISAIR
SWIFTAIR
FARNAIR
LIONAIR
AIR ASIA
ENTER AIR
SMALL PLANET

Please add...

All of these outfits have at one point, or still practice Work to Fly, which is not only morally discusting, it is also dangerous.

Public beware.
DO NOT FLY ON THESE DANGEROUS CARRIERS.

Nuvolair
Atlasjet
Corendon
SunExpress
Freebird
Blue Air
Blupanorama
Smartwings
Albastar
Vueling
Pegasus
Windjet
AirMediterranee
FlyHermes
Adria
Air Italy
Air Bucharest
Maldivian Airlines
Biman Bangladesh Airlines
Air Go airlines
Al Masria
Skies Airlines
Armavia
Air Armenia

How exactly are the airlines responsible for this, they are not forcing anybody to do anything.

The people responsible for this are the people who are stupid enough to pay for working, if everybody stopped paying this would simply come to an end.

I would never pay to work, I get paid well for my time on the job.

Many of you know my views of the P2F schemes and participants.:=

Lets not forget, PTF can be sneakily hidden beneath the veneer of high course cost and reduced initial salary.

And yes there are a number of companies in the UK trying to steal an edge on the decent operators by maximising the utilisation of this sharp practice.

There is an opinion that both are driving the whole effect downwards, and dragging the decent operators with them, it is clear to see that the blue propoganda is much more transparent in this particular area than the orange.

I think we should not forget those (56-58 years old) retired legacy carrier pilots "stealing" our jobs, blocking the flow of new entries.:=

If they need the money, make it somewhere else, if it is because they "love to fly", start flying doctors and food around in Africa!

And no, i don´t support P2F either!

Bit out of date, mate. Nigels can stay on till 65 now to cover their various alimony payments....

Turkish Delight - given that lovely solicitor who takes a half page ad in the BALPA magazine every month advertising her divorce, pension protection and child access services that would be lots of them :{

Wouldnt that be blocking the brand new PPs from getting their first gig??
Maybe you should go out there,learn how to fly and then complain about experienced pilots willing to continue flying longer because A they still love it and/or B the new Aston is out.:E

56-58 retired and stealing jobs? Take off your jealous angry glasses and take a reality check, chum. My so-called pension doesn't begin till I'm 66, same as many others. As long as I, and folks like myself, can earn a living (doing what we've invested in for the privilege of doing), I shall obviously continue to do so.

Life is a competition, despite what they might have led you to think at school. When you're good enough, and your time comes, you'll get a job, if you have the right attitude, of course. Meanwhile, get yourself a job stacking shelves, or working on a building site, like many of us had to do before we got a flying job.

From the Lion Air Ops manual:

Second In Command (SIC) is only allowed to become a Pilot Flying (PF) after reaching a 300 flight hours on the aircraft type flown (on type)
SIC with more than 300 flight hours on type, may become the PF on takeoff, but to become the PF for landing, he/she restricted to approach using an instrument landing system (ILS).
Especially for Boeing 737-900 ER, with the degree of difficulties because the length of the aircraft, SIC may become a PF after reaching 500 flight hours on type.
An extreme caution must be exercised anytime flying with less experienced pilot. The PIC must be prepared to take over the flight control, especially during takeoff and landing when the SIC is the PF. PIC must keep soft touch on rudder pedal, control column and thrust levers.
When the PIC has less than 300 flight hours on type. The PIC is not allowed to entrust the control to the SIC, irrespective of the SIC total flight time on type.
At all special airports and or when following condition exist (s) PIC always the PF •
The prevailing visibility value in the latest weather report for the airport is at or below 1 kilometer. •
The runway visual range (if reported) for the runway to be use is at or below 1,500 meters •
The runway to be used has water, snow, slush or similar condition that may adversely affect airplane performance.
The braking action of the runway to be used is reported to be less then “good”.
The cross wind component for the runway to be used in excess of 15 knots •
Wind shear is reported in the vicinity of the airport. •
Any other condition in which the PIC determines is to be prudent to exercise the PIC prerogative. •
Approach and landing on Non Precision Approach (NPA) runway.

John Smith,

They are more than welcome to proceed with legal actions.
I will have a field day exposing their practices to the general public.

So I can be sure that they will NOT proceed.

Why are they criminal and dangerous?

Because they abuse young, inexperienced people, new in the industry to increase their profit, prefer these profit bringers over more experienced personnel that has to be paid ( can they proof that experience does not increase safety factor?!), mislead their passengers claiming they put Safety first where in reality, they put profit in front, I can go on and on.

Thing is, its becoming more and more blurred nowadays.

I'm in a position to get onto a deal almost identical to that of Ryan in one of the outfits mentioned by despegue/j74. Ie paying for TR, but a paid long-term contract afterwards.

At the same time Norwegian (not mentioned in the list) has recently advertised a position of non-tr FO "summer contract" where you pay for your TR to be offered a fixed term contract of... 3 months.

And thing is, I'll probably take the offer I got. I've spoken to quite a lot of pilots during the last 4 years - working the ramp and flying on the jumpseat everytime I had the possibility. While 4 years ago opinions were varied and some said Ryan is a black sheep of the industry, in the last year every single pilot I met told me that I have to be prepared to pay for my TR. Most of them I could quote on 'if you get a shot at Ryan, by all means go for it'...

Do you actually think the general public care?

Paying for training is different to paying to WORK.
Ryanair pays you a salary when flying their passengers.
Air Baltic and others ask you to PAY for flying their passengers.

despegue,

The reason behind my post was precisely that one (that I know of) of the carriers you mention as 'air baltic and others' is paying a salary, while some better-established companies who aren't are lacking from the list.

There's the enormous question of PR involved, plus that within companies things can vary quite a lot between one contract and another.

ATLAS JET, CORRENDON. SUNEXPRESS AND FREEBIRD all pay salaries after type rating..duff info coming out here....again.. and another load of PTF dribble.. nowadays expect to pay for a type rating as part of the "education" look at it as a " requirement for employment" My daughter is at medical school and this is costing at least three times the cost of a type rating and afterwards a low salary even while working as a qualified doctor..There is, of course, a fundamental difference, medical students will nearly all get jobs, whereas baby pilots stand a 20% chance.. that's the real issue..

I wonder how pilots can manage such a financial burden. It is horrific.


- What is the average time spent by P2T in those airlines?
- Would it solve the issue if you involved union reps or pilot committees and have the P2F blocked from flying elsewhere?
- What is different between a P2F training / other respectful airlines? (Safety)

I have a feeling that the inboxes of the HR departments of the various airlines listed in this thread must be full of emails from wet CPL holders inquiring about their training programs.

John Smith

"I don't buy the morality angle either. Companies exist to make profit for their shareholders. They are not there for the benefit of their employees."

Once again I find myself disagreeing with you.

These days it seems as though companies do exist to make profit for the shareholders only, however the relationship between employer and employee should be a symbiotic one where both parties benefit. They need us as much as we need them and there should be mutual respect.

The quest for greed on the part of the shareholders has brought us to a point that is almost untenable and one that will result in disaster for everyone (A la French Revolution) in time.

Whilst John_Smith has clearly replaced WBF as the chief of polarised positions he does make valid points as well. Just sometimes expressed in a way that irritates.

Shareholder value is king. It is across the capitalist world. Airlines are just late to this game. A family member has worked in the City for 40 years and tells of horrific abuses of staff and customers in the name of profit. Just look at RBS. Once the bastion of commercial prudence, greed and the drive for profit at all costs has driven it time and time again to cross the line into gross abuse of trust and incompetence. They are being fined billions for these sins.

Companies that have understood the symbiotic relationship between a quality, motivated and happy work force generate sustainable growth and manage costs in a humane and controlled manner. Those that don't eventually fall to their knees. Airlines are not and will not be exempt.

:ugh:

I can assure you that Sunexpress took lot of people from Stella Aviation and made them to pay 30k for Line training.
And besides that few more people connected to fly gosh and again others by Mr. K.Z. Leeds Base... then they receive a fixed salary of 3k x month and this is another story, and different conditions of others companies, but still P2F!

Then still some agencies like AviationCV, still recruiting for various Companies people for TR+LT, same BAA TRTo and Air baltic TRTO.

Agree with you, but the sinergy between them has broken times ago!

Again, you're correct...lot of people they will use this thread like they find a piece of Gold...as they still too lazy to navigate in internet and find some informations by their own.