also Red and White

£18k up front :yuk:

As many have been saying for quite some time now, BA is nothing like the airline it was even just a few years ago. Things which would have been unthinkable years ago are absolutely on the table now. The rot has accelerated massively and the unions are pretty much impotent to do anything about it. It’s like a snowball rolling down hill; if you don’t stop it early on it will have gathered so much mass and velocity that it becomes unstoppable. I personally think the point where unions could stop it passed many years ago. The only thing to stop it now will be market forces - people refusing to join or large numbers of people leaving. In fact the mixed fleet cabin crew model requires a fairly high turn over as they don’t want people staying for ages and demanding extra pay for their loyalty. That same unacceptable attrition rate will exist for pilots too, although they’d want them to stay longer, but I bet we are nowhere near it at the moment, therefore IAG will think it’s still acceptable to keep turning the thumb screws. As long as they just take as much as can be stomached at a time, chip chip chip, marginal gains and all that. Change happens faster than it used to; the second a chip is taken, the chisel is already cracking the next bit. Our employer no longer cares about anything but improving efficiencies and therefore operating margins. And we no longer just compare ourselves to others; we chase that improved operating margin no matter how high it already is. If employee attrition versus recruitment starts to effect that operating margin, things will change, otherwise expect more of the same.

Short Haul honestly isn’t that bad. I moan more than most and even I can acknowledge that. If you get a SH offer also remember its a gateway into one of the most secure places in the industry and eventually a long haul slot if that’s what you’re after. It’s no bed of roses but to pretend it’s some never ending nightmare is also far from the truth.

Charging new entrants £18k for a type rating though? For BA that’s disgraceful.

I’m embarrassed that BA have stooped this low. Luckily for BA, they’ve divided the workforce so successfully that nobody gives a **** about anyone else, so nobody will do anything for the new joiners

Zero/zero...what do you suggest the existing employees do?

I know it’s buried in this thread somewhere but would someone please post payscales for new FO’s and perhaps also an indication of total monthly pay including sector/per diem etc.

Thanks.

Also I'm pretty sure if, in an ideal world, trainers were actually legally able to refuse to train those new entrants we would soon hearing gripes here about BA senior people trying to block newbies from getting into the industry.

​​​​​ zero/zero,

Whether you wish to portray this as “rolling over” or not is down to you but do you accept the Company Council’s response to the New Entrant scheme has to take into account Legal realities....this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?


As for the payround, I take it you are aware of the latest state of play regarding this and that three major Unions representing BA employee groups are coordinating their response...and BTW that there is a ballot going on that in the fullness of time might lead to Industrial Action?

People can stop volunteering to be trainers or part of the recruitment teams (or resign from those positions if outside of freeze), stop doing the roadshows, stop volunteering for #BASMART, stop accepting ad-hoc sims etc as some examples. I’m sure there’s enough intelligence within the Company Council to come up with something, but of course nobody wants to.

All too easy to just put our hands up and say “there’s nothing we can do”

Zero/zero, BALPA tried doing something about pilots being recruted on inferior terms and conditions with OpenSkies when they thought they had a very legitimate case. They got well and truly burnt by BA and in my opinion there is very little chance they’ll ever do anything to try and block changes to new entrant terms and conditions again. IAG would regard each of those actions you mention as unofficial industrial action, and they’d take legal action against BALPA and the individuals involved, and they’d win. New entrants can improve things by not applying, but at the end of the day, when they apply they accept the terms being offered. If you’re upset about the introduction of an £18k type rating charge, BA isn’t the place for you because I guarantee they’ll knock a heck of lot more than that off your terms and conditions once you are actually employed by them. People here seem to think current BA pilots are sitting fat dumb and happy whilst new entrants are taking all of the cost cutting. They’d be wrong. BA cost cutting is relentless. Willie Walsh described Aer Lingus as the most profitable company within the IAG group recently. It is all about operating margin for him, despite the fact that in this last year, BA produced four times the operating profit of the rest of IAG combined!

Pilot terms and conditions are not the only thing that determines an airline’s profitability. Sadly though, within BA it is easier to improve margins by attacking terms and conditions than it is to actually address fundamental problems. Also BA has to pay Heathrow’s sky high fees.

How do you call a strike for pilots that haven’t joined the company yet? Once they sign on the dotted line and accept the t&c’s, including the 18k fee, how do you justify industrial action for something the NEP has just accepted? If BA charged existing pilots for the type rating I could see legally justifiable motive for I.A. In short, caveat emptor.
‘Incidentally, with the 5 year type freeze, arguably pilots are paying for their type rating indirectly.

Man Utd - agreed. Surprising how most are so quick to throw hands up and say nothing can be done. If a ballot for industrial action were to be called on this issue along with other outstanding issues it could be quickly sorted. Talk of wildcat strikes or mass sickouts a la France is a hysterical comparison. Work to rule over peak summer period anybody?

Sadly is doesn’t sound like the will is there to resolve this issue and BA wil take the chisel and chip away at something else next. This profession is being hugely let down by the “I’m alright Jack” attitude.

ManU, so rioting aside, what else would you and your fellow staff colleagues do to protect the T&C’s of people that haven’t yet signed on the dotted line and therefore don’t have T&C’s to protect?
There seem to be a lot of key board warriors on pprune nowadays. I’d be interested to know the % of them that have put an X on a strike ballot and how many have actually walked.

Ah. Problem here. The Twitter brand ambassadors have spent the last week claiming the modular route now being open is a win - no mention of up front type rating costs.

There are over 4000 pilots in BA? If BALPA balloted on a work to rule you would always have the social media heroes and the like doing their own thing. But you would have a significant majority working to rule. Don’t underestimate the impact that can have on a company’s bottom line.

TBH over the years the Reps, former lot or this current tranche, have always maintained a work to rule would be ineffective...define “work to rule for” starters..even issuing a call for people not to volunteer has it’s risks....If you have the chance when next in T5 grab a passing rep and ask about this, it is interesting...and TBH amongst other things it gives you a bit of a depressing insight into human nature, (well, some people’s nature).

Now....back to the new qualified pilot scheme...looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..so no doubt many outside BA also see it as a good thing.....which brings into play (again) the point that BALPA campaiging against this scheme would be used by some to demonstrate how out of touch “we” are with those that want to join the industry as pilots.

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.