Right, I have it as FACT, don't cut it up, it'll be invalidated. That's a FACT. It's not debatable. If you don't know something - ask. The CAA's phone number isn't a secret, you may have to wait 10-15 mins to be spoken to and they will confirm what I have said. Don't guess based on the number of sleeves, page numbers or mumbo jumbo. Waste £46 and fly on an invalidated licence if it makes you feel rebellious but don't try and confuse others into the same path.

DO NOT CUT YOUR NEW EASA ATPL LICENCE. IT WILL INVALIDATE IT.

End of story.

Perhaps we should all phone the CAA on the same day and ask them the same question about which page should go in which sleeve :E

Seriously, the CAA haven't made this decision, it is from EASA and the CAA has to comply. Non negotiable, not debatable.

What I resent is that it took them 3 1/2 months (2 months after it expired) to reissue my ATPL, and I have no come back, no compensation, no apology, and I expect (you just know really) that despite the back log of work everyone grabbed their bags at 5pm, and thinned out for the day.

It is the CAA.
They are responsible for their own aviation!
Have other EASA countries got a stupid licence as well ?
Is it the CAA interpretation of EASA rules? If so did they ever question them and ask WHY or heres a better idea, or can we do it this way (I bet the french did there own thing).

I'm sorry but if you can co*k up the issuing of a simple licence, I do not dare think what else they are capable of. Unprofessional yet again, time to take the blinkers off.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

It's a disgrace and systematic of the whole EASA implementation by the CAA. The simple act of getting new licences to people who need them for their livelihood in a format which is useable is beyond them. They are quite simply beyond the task and not fit for the role of administering aviation in the UK.

Apparently it's because your license details aren't on the bottom of each page as they were with the old JAR licenses. Therefore once cut up there's no easy way to be sure the pages relate to the license holder.

Seems like there's a relatively simple fix there which will please everyone...

Sorry chaps - big red box in CAP 804 Sect 1, Part C, Appendix 2, Page 1 states:

"Pilots are not permitted to cut up their licence as its format and layout is stipulated by EASA regulations."

Good 'ere innit?

Then the format is screwed and needs re-designing! I really think a court may not agree with EASA if it came to be challenged!!

When I had my A320 and JAR licence converted about 2 weeks ago I used the same day service which worked out quite well. I appreciate not everyone can do so though which has created a big problem for those in the pending tray!

The CAA are a disgrace, the worst kind of civil service mentality draped in the guise of a viable commercial entity!! :mad:

JAA licence. Just done a recurrent. I have been given a whole load of sh1t paperwork which I can only assume is EASA sh1t?
The TRTO has no idea so what chance do I have?
What an utter sham of sh1t!
I will continue to fly as per norm, they can stop me!

KH

Any UK TRTO should know what forms are needed, one of which will need to be completed by the TRE signing off your recurrent. I needed just three forms and I am guessing so will you! It's not so bad until you have to send off the paperwork!!

If the TRTO is US based, then I would agree with you!

This has got me so curious that I've actually looked up the EASA regulation. LINK

Nowhere does it say that everything has to be shoehorned onto one piece of A4.
It actually says that an item such as the ratings page can be a separate item, as long as it is clearly identified.

Basically the CAA have chosen to interpret the regulations in a completely cocked-up manner for reasons known only unto themselves!!! I would say it beggars belief, but then it is the CAA we're talking about!

FW

Thanks for the link and relevant regs - I agree with your interpretation!

Our nutty CAA is at it again - a law unto themselves! I did say above that I don't believe any court would uphold the CAA's contention that cutting up a licence in the way "it suggests" would invalidate it but it needs clearing up asap for everyone's sake!

The problem is with the CAA's current implementation. They don't have the license holders details at the bottom of each section, so once cut up, there is nothing to say that the pages relate to the license holder

The EASA regs clearly say each page should be 1/8th the size of an A4 page.
It doesn't say anything about being 1/8th of the same sheet of A4. I've had a look at the old JAR regs and the only difference I can see is that the old one says each page should be no smaller than 1/8th A4.

It also has each page numbered 1-8. Why would they be numbered if it's all intended to be on one sheet?

I think the CAA have misinterpreted it but now that they have if you cut it up then the ratings pages don't have any licence number so could belong to anyone.

That all being said, it lives in the bottom of the bag and only sees the light of day once a year for the LPC or more if some nice inspector shows up. Does it really matter what it looks like? I do feel sorry however for the TREs with long surnames :ok:

The cut up thing dates back to when the JAR licenses were issued.

Immediately 50% of the pilots chopped them up so they would fit in the provided book because it was obviously stupid not to.

Someone who proberly never has to carry one day in day out didn't like this and started saying that the license was invalid if it was chopped up. Typical civil servant attitude to documentation to be honest.

Then it was proved that there was nothing stopping the practise.

This time they made sure it was written that you couldn't for some reason.

The reason for not having a sensible sized license I would think is purely because they have a printer and don't want to buy a new one and want to use the stocks of paper that they already have. It could be sorted for under 500 quid in real terms but by the time you add in all the internal billing costs and training etc your more than likely looking at 10k to get a new printer in.

I am willing to bet it coming from the same people who are enforcing all the PDF security nonsense to try and get you to print out a form sign it and then scan it back in again. When its pretty well known that all you do is print the thing off as a pdf to get rid of the security after you have filled it in. Then paste in your signature with a transparent back ground and then print it again to PDF and email it in. Takes all of 60 seconds and you don't need access to scanner.

The CAA have no control over the interpretation of the rules by other National Aviation Authorities however at a recent EASA meeting the vast majority of NAA confirmed that they would consider the licence as defaced if it was cut up.

It follows on from this that if a ramp inspection was carried out by one of those NAA inspectors then they would consider your licence invalid and refuse to allow you to proceed.

Therefore the advice from the CAA is based on their interpretation of the rules and the consensus of other NAA. For the CAA to say that it may be okay to cut up your licence would be ludicrous, consequently in order to ensure that your licence is definitely considered as valid the CAA say that it should not be cut up. If you then choose to cut up your licence (despite advice from the CAA to the contrary) and a flight gets delayed then it probably will not be viewed favourably by your employer.

Anyone done the over the counter service recently?

The CAA website is clear as mud; is the counter service in Aviation House and is there parking outside or does one have to use Gatwick Short Stay?

It is in Aviation House and there is visitor parking out the front of the building.

Cheers:ok:

Artie, if you are making any cpl/atpl licence changes/amendments involving the issue or reissue of a licence, strongly suggest getting there very early before the office opens. Security will let you wait in the warmth. Its worth getting there early before the rush and they will only deal with a limited number of requests each day. I got there just before 7.00am and was number 3 in the queue.

JB, the new season approaches and I haven't got to put up with a tweeting ijit with earings driving next to me.

Thanks JB, it's a JAA to EASA conversion. I'll pack a Thermos & cheese roll and get there early!

Good luck in Melbourne.

Ditto, I got there at 7:30 and was number 12. Front security give you a number so its quite civilised. By the time the licensing desk opened at 8:30 there were 24 people. I got my licence at 1pm.

Be warned. I turned up there a couple of days ago to convert my JAA CPL/IR to a EASA ATPL and was told it would be posted back to me in about two weeks as they do not offer same day service to upgrade a licence, only to revalidate/re-issue them. A wasted journey for myself. :ugh:

That was the same that was put out with the JAR license. And was proved to be not a problem as a neatly chopped up license looks as valid as any other european state. As there were more chopped up licenses than not.

Which is why I suspect the only time it will be an issue will be when Gatwick gets its hands on your license.

Someone did actually send an email out last time to all the NAA's about the UK JAR license getting chopped up. It was mentioned by a ramp inspection to me as mine was. They then laughed and sent me on my way. After a "well how the :mad: else is it meant to fit in the holder"

Unfortuantely the UK CAA doesn't seem to realise that actually they are alot of the time seen as the laughing stock of the other NAA's.

Harsh but they do seem to concentrate on the niff naff and triva which is cheap instead of issues that really affect flight safety.

You think the UK CAA are not in the forefront of aviation safety?what would make you think that?

The comments about sub part Q being safe for a start.

(I can't work out if that was an honest question or sarcasim)

UK JAR FCL ATPL--> EASA ATPL conversion rejected due to ELP
 

Hello you all,

I'm a UK CAA JAR FCL ATPL holder and my license has to be re-issued by May 15. Due to the large amounts of conversion applications I thought I will do it on time.

Today I received my application back from the CAA with the memo that the re-issuing was denied because my ELP was assessed by an non-UK examiner. The CAA refers to CAP 804 Sec 4 - part M and indeed it states that from September 2012 ELP should be assessed by an UK Examiner. The thing is my ELP skill test was done in March 2011! Back than the UK CAA refused to issue me a new license with the Level 6 proficiency and informed me I had to wait for a new license till the official license re-issue date.

How can it be that new regulations will effect old qualification in retrospect?

Any one with the same experience?


Cheers!

Dimiair,

Which centre you took the test? Was it an official TEA mayflower college centre?
I think that if you take the test in a recognized Tea centre they shouldnt make any problem.

the next step.
 

Firstly, l apologise for wanting something on my first post.

lf anyone is prepared to walk me through this "hand in hand", l would be very grateful.
My flying job evaporated in 2009 but my type rating continued until the end of that year.
That was a uk atpl licence converted to jaa previously, as a brit born and bred.

ln July 2010 l "invested" £3k in renewing my licence , in the hope of finding work. Type rating and l/R.

The detail of which could be amusing, but is certainly not relevent.

Didn`t work. ( yes, but have you flown the type within the last 6 months?)

On reading this thread l checked my jaa atpl to find that " this licence is to be re-issued not later than 05/02/2013".

l`m not short of hours, or unfortunately years, but l would venture that common sense has always been more of an ambition than a reality.

l seem to have been pedalling so furiously to keep a roof over my head that l missed what was going on.

l have little disposable income, who has these days ?, and wonder just how to avoid losing that little green book.

After all, it took blood,sweat,and tears to get it.

It was done at the Oxford Flight Academy in Stockholm together with a Swedish Assessor. This examiner was assigned by the Swedish CAA and conform ICAO doc 9835.

There are thousands of pilots who conducted this test, whilst flying on UK licenses, in there countries of residence. Are they all to retake this proficiency test? I enjoy ( :( ) an UK license, but I never took the IR skill test, like many others, with an UK examiner. Do we all have to re-assessed on this as well???

I do understand in full that the CAA will use the EASA transition to polish up the requirements but I can't imagine the office is resorting to retrospective laws or regulations.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts...1_21122012.pdf

Jeeeeezz... wishing I found this thread a couple of weeks ago :eek:

So I have this 'friend' (!) who received his licence conversion with shinny new type-rating the other week, 2 MONTHS LATE and not before a hell of a lot of phone calls & employer email to 'fast-track' (HA!) the application.

Anyway, what was the first thing said individual did on receiving the crappy little EASA thing? Well he pulled out the shinny scissors to make it fit in the provided wallet that's what...... seemed logical at the time :ugh:

Thus my question: where does said individual stand on the legality of this? Currently hr-building towards an FI course, would oneself essentially be breaking the law flying on a 'null and void' licence just because it's no longer a single sheet of A4? Would hrs flown on a theoretically cut up licence be null & void??!? (not that anyone could prove the exact date that said document was snipped!!)

Can you order a new one today saying you lost your old one or threw it out by mistake... Perhaps it would be inadvisable to fly in the meantime. Can you go to Gatwick and get re-prints on the 1 day service (I read about earlier on in this thread so think it exists but perhaps i just made it up)?

I really think they should add a line to the letter that is sent along with the licence saying don't cut it up. As I assume is normal, mine came with lines pressed into the paper which makes the scissors so appealing! For anyone else thinking about cutting theirs up, absolutely do not do it and if you must, at least use a rotatrim instead of scissors:}

10Watt
 

If I am reading your post correctly, then I believe you will be okay... It appears it's just your license that has expired, not your IR credits.

If you look at the CAA website I think you'll find you need to fill in a SRG 1104 form plus the EASA conversion form plus proof of ICAO level 6 and they will issue you an EASA license AND RENEW your ATPL.

I think you lose the written ATPL credits if you don't renew your IR within sevenyears.

Check the website and phone 01293 537700 - but make sure you phone at 9am sharp otherwise you'll be in a looong queue...!

Mr ( very) Good Cat
 

May your kittens live long and prosper, thankyou.

Rating issue to EASA Licence
 

I'm still confused about one day service that I'm planning to get. I'm living in Turkey. i'm gonna have IR conversion course in Spain (with EASA CPL in the pocket) then fly to Gatwick just after the course to get the rating done in one day (it could be 2-3 days, still works for me) is that possible? Or that could be just a dream :)

Need some advice guys

Thanks

Cloud, are you a UK Licence holder having a multi engine IR endorsed on your existing EASA CPL issued by UK or are you the holder of a JAR CPL and wishing to convert this to EASA CPL and add the multi IR at the same time? The IR course in Spain is being done by a JAR training company and the check ride will need to be approved by the UK CAA according to CAP 804 with the examiner filling in the "self brief" at least 3 days before the actual test. If you already have the EASA Part FCL licence the addition of the IR should be completed in the same day, if not they post it back to your UK address. ( As UK Part FCL licence holders must have an address in UK)

Thanks for the answer

Actually I am waiting for my Licence issue. It's going to be an EASA CPL/ME.
Only IR I have is FAA IR. that's why I have to have a conversion course. By the way, it's not necessary to be an UK citizen to hold an UK issued Licence. I did all my training in US in one of the UK CAA approved FTO. So I don't have any address in UK

I'm pretty sure that you cannot get initial license issue done via the same day counter service. Check the CAA website.

Ok it's clear that you can't get one day service for initial licence issue. I know that.

But my case is different. I will go to Gatwick with my EASA ME/CPL in my hand already, plus IR conversion course completion papers. Is that possible to get IR rating done to existing EASA CPL in same day?

CAA Website and Annex A to CAP 804 suggest that "Counter Service" is available for addition of IR to an Existing EASA Licence. Form SRG 1161 AND ALL the supporting documents must be in order or its a no-go. If your medical records are in the UK and you have a non-expiring ELP endorsement on your existing licence JAR CPL and the examiner has self briefed and the IR test was "approved" and all the other bits are in order it should be OK. You state you are living in Turkey? If you hold a JAR CPL with a JAR medical issued in Turkey, even if the medical is still current, you will need an EASA Part Med before your Part FCL Licence is issued. Check out CAA Website and SRG 1161, And Annex A CAP 804 to avoid delays.

Thanks for info. Now I know that I can go for it. I have UK CAA issued Class-1 medical and icao level-4 certificate from mayflower collage which is approved from UK CAA.

By the way I'm going to Malaga AErodynamics to convert my IR to EASA one. Due to new EASA mess, I should check all the documents I need before fly to Gatwick.

In other hand many guys going to aerodynamics for IR conversion I hope and I expect that school has all necessary information and paperwork for students not to have any problem in Gatwick :)