RJ 100s at BA EOG
 

What's the long term plan for the ex CFE RJ 100s, are they being sold or moved to the regions? If so what are the crews likely to be transferred onto? While I'm at it - what's also happening with the ATR fleet?

Cheers.

The RJ's are in the process of being transfered over to CitiExpress in Man & Bhx, operated initially by CitiFlyer flightdeck and then subject to BA/Balpa negotiations by CitiExpress crew

Some problems with the scope clauses as they are over 100 seats, so can they be operated by BACE crews without causing a union uprising. (And we all know the unions run BA !!)

Also I understand the RJ's must remain on the separate CityFlyer AOC as it would cost too much to transfer them to BA's AOC due to CityFlyer having a better credit rating with the lessors!

ATR's likely to remain for another 15-18 months?

Yep the unions run BA, except BALPA which is walked all over. We don't have a scope clause in BA, which is why they can transfer the jobs of 150 pilots in the regions to a low cost subsidiary.

THE UNIONS RUN BA?

MY A**E!

When the RJ100s come to MAN the remaining 40 engineers, (that is the ones left over after the hangar closure) will be looking for work elsewhere as the RJ work will be going to Manx/BRAL engineering.

Effectively a fleet change with the work farmed out to the lowest bidder.
BA Licensed Engineer: average salary, £35000 + good pension/staff travel etc.
BA CitiExpress Engineer: average salary, £27000, no pension scheme worth a damn, diluted staff travel.

So don't tell me that the unions run BA!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Will Citi Express be hiring for these Avro's when they arrive in the regions and if so when.

BACE might be hiring in the future, but it better not be for the RJ's, I want to fly one!! The aircraft will be put on the BACE AOC, it would have been a complete waste of money to transfer them from CFE-BA, and then to BACE, and neither BACE nor BA is awash with cash at the moment, although things are'nt quite as bad as some like to make out.:)

Pilots in general can only benefit from these aircraft being flown by BA pilots.

If BA pilots fly them, this means more (relatively) well paid jobs than if BRAL fly them. Maybe the prospects within BRAL would not be so good, but overall pilots end up better off.

It is really important that BALPA fight to keep these seats from going to the lowest paid bidder. How would you like it BRAL if your work was given to someone offering to do it cheaper?

Not quite the case bral. BAR pilots receive a largely unwanted, enforced transfer to London. RJ initially crewed by LGW crews who then are phased out to make way for BACE pilots. Net result, 150 new jobs for BACE pilots, 150 less jobs for BA mainline pilots. Despite what BA say they have no plans to run down the regions, they simply want to slash costs by farming out the flight crew jobs and forcing the cabin crew to take a massive pay cut to BACE terms. Furthermore, why shouldn't BALPA restrict your access to larger aircraft? If BA wants to operate large aircraft in its colours it should employ BA pilots to do it. How would you feel if the BACE management told you that you were too expensive and they were about to eliminate your jobs and replace you with BA cadets on much lower salaries? In that instance I'd suspect you'd want BALPA to put a stop to it. The reason for scope agreements is to protect standards over the whole community, rather than allow cynical managers to constantly farm out work to the lowest bidders.

Hand solo , your name says it all..

I agree with bral. Why should Ba pilots be allowed to impose a scope clause on an independent company?

If Ba pilots are worried then it shows that some of them have some common sense, unlike you.

Small aircraft that the regions require cannot support large salaries or inflated egos .

Indeed why should BA pilots be able to impose a scope clause on an independent company? I don't think they should and will welcome the day that BACE is a wholly independent company. Then they can have whatever aircraft they want. But whilst they're a wholly owned subsidiary flying in British Airways colours with BA flight numbers then their on our patch. This may amaze you, but BA has got to be succesful because of the hard work of its employees. Sure, the company got a lot of breaks after privatisation, but it didn't go the way of Olympic, or Sabena, did it? It is one of the biggest airlines in the world and it got there entirely due to the efforts of all the staff to ensure that BA is a reliable, punctual, high quality, safe and trusted airline. That position is in no small part due to the flying staff of BA who have invested their future in the company. It may further surprise you that in the regions BA pilots work under the hardest, most productive scheduling regimes in the company, as do the cabin crew, and many of the ground staff took a pay cut to ensure the bases had a future within BA and to fund 26 new A319s for the regions.

Then what do you know? After all that effort, Johnny-Come-Lately CitiExpress turn up and say 'I want your base, your routes, your aircraft, your customers, your brand and your opportunites. Why? Because I'm cheaper'. And that is the crux of the issue. You want the opportunites BA staff worked hard to build, whilst you've contributed nothing except an annual franchise fee. Its BA staff who built that network and its their right to expect access to the opportunities they've built for themselves. You want to fly a 100 seater? Then fine, call yourself BRAL, take the BA colours off your aircraft and go find your own customers. But whilst you cosy on in flying our livery and helping yourself to our customers then you can expect opposition from the BA pilot body. You may think your current airline is only temporary employment and one day you might hope to move onto bigger or better things elsewhere. Well there aren't many elsewheres left in the UK, and by opposing this creeping outsourcing to cheap labour we're trying to ensure that there are still better opportunities around for those who might want them, rather than working for peanuts 'cos the lowest bidder always wins.

Hand Solo, we currently have hot and cold running BA cadets joining our TP fleets. The message we're being fed is that we're all part of the same big happy BA group. Now, I've crossed swords with yourself and others on this in the past and was presented with the idea then that scope would be wonderful for us BACE chappies and that we should stop moaning and undercutting you and get on with it in our pokey little rat-hole of an airline. Well, I've come round to your way of thinking, at least on the undercutting bit, and I don't believe we should be paid any less than yourselves to operate these aircraft.

You seem irritated by our attitudes and desires. A couple of points. While some of us will walk on to bigger and better things, a lot of our pilots stay with company because they like their locality and aren't driven by a burning desire to fly heavier and faster aircraft. Also we were quite happily going along, paddling our own canoe. We didn't ask to be bought out by BA. There will also be an anomoly in that BACE pilots and BA pilots will be flying essentially a similar type, 146 v's RJ100 on two different sets of conditions. I can also say that this isn't an open invitation for you to pinch the 146 jobs for yourselves either.

We are told that the grown ups want these aircraft to be flown on the BACE cost-base. I'd be interested to see what part of this cost-base is made up of crew salaries. If the BA pilot body genuinely wanted to sort this problem out they would be discussing this with the BACE pilots and presenting a united front to our overall bosses. For those who say that it would be wrongto assimilate BACE, a precedent has been set by Cityflyer being fully absorbed into BA mainline. The simplest way of preventing your colleagues from having to relocate would be to have both sets of pilots flying on the same Ts and Cs. There is a genuine feeling in BACE that we're being shafted. While you snipe at us and treat us like second rate citizens isn't it any suprise that we really don't feel any solidarity with you or much sympathy with the predicament of your BAR colleagues?

Hand.
Maybe i'm missing a trick here, and if so please explain. It seems to me that it was British Airways who created the franchises and not the franchise holders. the reason BA did this was so that routes which they could not make money on themselves (amongst the reasons for which is he large sums paid to (for example) BAR in salaries and of course allowances) could continue to be operated and maybe even make a buck for the lower cost franchise operator. roger so far?
Now that BA is even deeper in the doo-doo than it previously was, the steps it must take to stay in business are getting more extreme and its difficult to criticise them for getting BACE which lets face it, is very much part of BA now, to operate more and more aircraft and routes.
At least no one is getting 'let go' from the flight deck whereas there are large numbers of people around who are ex BA and looking for a new job. That could change if things don't improve.
While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think you can expect a lot of sympathy outside of BA. Could i just ask you tho' do you think BACE is too cheap? or do you think maybe you guys and gals are maybe just a bit too dear?:rolleyes:

Well by your post CLAD it seems we share some fairly similar viewpoints. I do not believe you are second class citizens. I do not believe you should be paid less than BA pilots for operating the same type. To have such a situation merely invites BACE to set up yet another subsidiary on lower pay still and then shaft you with it. Furthermore, I understand BALPA have ambitions to get BACE onto some form of seniority list/ T & Cs with BA mainline, though I suspect that BA management will fight tooth and nail to prevent that. I don't think anyone in BA thinks its wrong to assimilate BACE in the same way CFE were.

I can fully understand the desire not to move on to pastures new if you particularly enjoy being where you are. What does irk me is that some people seem to think BA pilots don't feel the same way. There are many people who've been in the regions for donkeys years and have no desire to move. BAs decision not to allow BA pilots to fly what are still BA (or CFE) aircraft means families are going to be uprooted and vast expenses are going to be incurred moving to the south east, whilst those who can't or won't move will see their quality of life ruined by endless commuting and lonely nights stuck in B&Bs in the LHR area. Unfortunately, this is usually overlooked as greedy nigel obviously only wants to hang on the aircraft for cash/ego purposes. What also irks is the occasional assertion by some people that they have a divine right to take BA work or aircraft as they are 'so much more efficient', a viewpoint which seems to stem more from envy than any actual knowledge.

You also seem to share my cynicism on the companies accounting practices! Its a standard BA technique to lay all failures at the door of the overpaid pilots (representing a huge 4% of all BAs costs as we do), and once again we see this technique being applied in the regions. My suspiscion is that very little of the overall running costs of BAR is attributable to flight crew, and my belief is that management are pulling a fast one in their crusade to reduce pilots pay to zero. It probably is the case that the RJ100 is a more economical aircraft to operate from the regional bases, but the wholesale transfer of these aircraft to BACE is part of a political rather than an economic agenda. Until we can improve your T & Cs to our levels, we are compelled to oppose the transfer to prevent our T&Cs being reduced to your levels because thats a lose - lose situation for both of us.

Brain fade - beware of falling into the BA propaganda trap that all blame rests at pilots salaries. BAs accounting is a nebulous beast. The franchises do pay a franchise fee, but what is that fee, and does it truly represent value for money for BA? We are told that franchises are cheaper, but who is paying for the customer service staff, the advertising and branding, the product development, the customer loyalty programs, the head office staff, the 24 hr telesales centre and website, and so on and so forth. Franchises do work well when you have a thin route that couldn't be operated by a BA aircraft - it provides access to passengers that we would otherwise not have. The problems arise when you suddenly have franchises operating aircraft that BA operate. Examples:

1. BA operates 120 seat A319s at BHX which sometimes have low utilitsation. On the next stand a franchise operates 120 seat 737 to Belfast? Best use of BA resources?

2. BA operates 767 to Baku and Almaty. BA decides it cannot make money so franchise takes over operating A320. One year later BA has burgeoning fleet of A320s that could operate Baku and Almaty but franchise still has route from the same base? Is this the best way to grow our network?

3. BA pulls off LGW-MPL route on a 737 as it can't turn a profit. The very next day franchise begins 737 LGW-MPL route. Said franchise is charged £300 for a 737 turnaround by BA ground handlers, the going rate. BA 737 is charged £1000 by same handlers for same turn around because it is a captive customer. Are inefficiencies in other parts of the company skewing the profitability of BAs flight ops?

These are just three examples of why it is just not possible to believe the figures which the company come out with to justify there franchising/outsourcing, call it what you will. I appreciate we must sound completely paranoid to outsiders, but BA BALPA are fighting a continous rear-guard action to fend off a string of managers who fiddle with flight crew careers while Rome burns around them.

Right well that was a long post, better go and take my pills now.

Very predictable, Hand Solo. Your attitude is the usual one presented by BA mainline. Its not so much that your theory of wanting to maintain your Ts and Cs is wrong, it's just that your tenuous grasp on reality is insulting. If you look around the shorthaul route network, you will see an ever increasing amount of work being taken by the Lo Cost boys. This is not because the pax prefer their paint jobs, it is because they are CHEAPER.

At BRAL, MANX, CITIEXPRESS, whatever you wish to call us, we are cheaper, and much more profitable than BAR.

(Have BAR ever indeed been profitable?????)

So, if we don't take your business, (in RJs, Embs, or Fireball XL5), it's as sure as the pope is a Catholic that someone will. I have always regarded BA as being the benchmark for Airline Pilot salaries. I did when I was in the RAF, and I still do. The thing is though, unless you let common sense percolate into your attitude, you will end up like British Leyland, RootesGroup, the Coal Board, and many other industries where short sighted unions f###ed up the whole deal. Virgin, BMi, not to mention the Americans are just slavering at the chance to get more of a longhaul toehold, with the cheepies already two feet in the door in our business. Your response doesn't seem to acknowledge that somehow, our own business was amalgamated with BAR, and we instantly started issuing profit warnings.

I don't expect you to agree, far less understand - :rolleyes: - but get it through your head that if BAR costs are not lowered, there will BE no regional flying for anyone. Just look at what your airline did to CFE. A small operator, highly profitable airline, (just like us) was bought by BA, and put on BA Ts and Cs, and management practices. Do you have the ability to guess why those self same routes then started to lose money? Tricky really, isn't it, or is your opinion still that this was all propaganda started by the big bad management?

GET A LIFE!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Hand Solo

All you have said regarding the efforts of BAR flightdeck/cabin crew has been mirrored by us in Brymon/BRAL. Both airlines have come from very modest roots and with none of the technical/financial backing BAR receivied and have become extremely sucessful (both airlines posted profits close to ten million each before the mearger, I understand that BAR has not posted a profit for some time although I may be quite incorrect). The only reason BA issues franchise to the likes of us is to benefit themselves, many of the routes were already being operated extremely successfully by Brymon/BRAL. My experience of BAR certainly illustrated to me why it is running at a loss. The cabin crew are not resposible for security checking seat pockets etc (has to subcontracted) and do not open service doors etc! extraodinary! This was just a peek. Although I too do not wish to see reasonable Ts & Cs degraded we do have to remember that at the end of the day BA has to make money and it certainly isn't. We are extremely privelidged to enjoy this profession but it doesn't give us the right to dictate the future of a company while blindly motivated by personal gain.
My opinion, and it's your right to disagree!

Regards.

Doh! You've taken the management pill James, haven't you! Have you understood anything I've said? OK lets explain this in simple steps for you.

1) Nobody's making any money at the moment except the low fares airlines.

2) You are not a low fares airline. You are a low pay airline. They are not the same.

3) Your fares are high, which means your pax are also going to switch to low fares airlines. Add in the concerns about the economy and 911 and there's a profits warning for you. It may be coincidental that it occurred at the same time as BA taking over you, but such is life.

4) BAR is profitable and has been for some time. BHX is very profitable, MAN is suffering due to high costs associated with MAN airport and competition from Easy at LPL. The franchises aren't doing terribly well at MAN either.

5) You may be proud of 'taking our business'. You haven't taken it, it's been given to you by BA management. If your so proud of your Embraers ask the ground staff what the passengers think of them, and why so many prefer to change their flight time so that they can fly on a large aircraft. Without the RJs arriving they'd all defect to LH/AF/UK.

6) BA is not the benchmark for airline salaries. Starting today at a major airline your earnings would be far higher at Easy, Ryanair or Go, either as a CEP or DEP. Our pilots are paid below market rate, which is tacitly acknowledged by the BA board, who also extol to the City the virtues of the cheapest long-haul flight crew of any major airline in the western world.

7) BA is flying round full aircraft, with junior flight crew on market or below rates and senior flight crew operating the cheapest long haul operation going. Safely. Punctually. Reliably. What else would you like us to do?

8) BA pilots haven't been on strike for ages, which makes us entirely different from the defunct British monoliths you care to mention. Nor do we work to rule.

9) I don't expect you to agree , far less understand. Your pre-conceptions and stereotypes speak volumes. You do yourself a disservice by associating managerial and strategic failure with workforce wages. The guys at Easy, Go, Southwest et al are well rewarded and their companies go from strength to strength. Now that you have the BACE management team on board I'm sure you'll be the first to embrace their strategy of'work more, get less'. But only for you that is.

Next time you find yourself on board a BA aircraft, or catch up with your ex-RAF mates who flt for BA, why not ask them what its really like in the company. You might even learn something.

Further edit for facts:

Bendy Lady - BAR cabin crew don't check seat backs because the cleaners do it when they clean the aircraft. And a very good job of it they do whilst the cabin crew check the catering, carry out their own SEP checks and find a moment to eat. They don't open service doors because BA policy is that no aircraft doors are opened unless there's a platform in place outside. You may think this is daft, but when one of the caterers fell off a 319 last year he spend a very long time in intensive care. As stated above, BAR are profitable,I think £10 million profit in a recent year which is as much as Brymon.

bral - Great. Inverness is a perfect example of what happens when franchises work. The EOG RJ crew may be able to stay at LGW, but because of seniority issues arising from the merger the Captains are likely to lose their commands. The pilots at BHX/MAN are on mainline contracts, but they are not LHR based. They are regionally based and many have never operated out of LHR or have any desire to do so. There may be jobs available at LHR, but thats not where they're from or where they want to be. They too like the locality and have no desire for heavier or faster aircraft. There's probably an RJ job for you in the SW of England, but do you want to move there? Don't believe what the cabin crew tell you about allowances. £200 per night? You could get a whole cabin crew on a split duty for that, and although the allowances are higher, the basic pay is considerably lower. I don't think BALPA should necessarily stop you flying a 110 seater, but I don't think the company should be allowed to transfer 16 aircraft from the BA/CFE register to BACE just because they have an un-costed, 'finger in the air' feeling about it (I know you won't believe that but that was the stated basis of the decision for transferring RJs to MAN!). If you think thats OK, then tell me why we shouldn't transfer the entire embraer fleet to a low-paying air taxi operator? After all, there's work for you elsewhere and it'll improve the companies bottom line.

BRAL, You have hit the nail on the head,it is not Pilot costs that are the problem,it is CC costs.However BA Pilot management have not got the balls to tell Rod that we are not the problem and to get CC costs under control,they just tell us we have to do our bit to contribute to cost cutting and that means BACE flt deck even though BA flt deck adds neglibly to the overall costs.

We seem to have forgotten that until very recently these 150 pilot jobs on the RJ were outside BA with a 'Regional Operator' paying much lower salaries than BA. It is more than a little specious to now claim BA are 'losing 150 pilot jobs to the Regions'. I'll bet the pilots taken in from CityFlyer are laughing all the way to the bank whilst it is quite clear that no BA pilot is going to lose his job as BA will very soon be short of pilots.

Firstly, I would like hold out an olive branch to our BACE colleagues who DO indeed work very hard and offer a good, safe service. The problems that we of BAR have are not our fellow pilots who, like ourselves, are mere pawns in the game that is called BA. We are all just trying to earn a living. The changes that are taking place in the regions are golden opportunities for BACE people and I can't blame them for taking them. So I don't think it's right that we play into management's hands and squabble amongst ourselves.

I hope that BALPA can work out a deal which allows us all to work where we want, on the aircraft we want. I see no need for BA pilots to have a pay cut. I see every need for BACE pilots to get a pay rise. Same job and responsibility so same pay.

The same goes for the cabin crew. Although BAR do have a few who have fossilized on a 6 and 3 pattern for far too long, eating bacon sandwiches in the crew room at BA's expense and then complaining about how hard done by they are, a large majority (not large because of too much bacon mind you), are a credit to their uniform. Why shouldn't all the cabin crew receive equal remuneration?

The engineers are another group who are suffering. BAR's engineers are largely cutting grass at MAN or staffing the telephone call centre now. Surely we can come together and use these highly skilled people to great advantage for the airline. We owe them that much after their care over the years, in keeping us all safe.

I guess that all I am trying to say is let's work together as best we can. Be civil and realize that we are all doing the best we can under difficult circumstances. RJ100 people particularly may have to move to the regions and BAR people may/will move south (and contrary to popular belief, we don't want to move, big jets or not).

I don't know how productive this submission will be, but I for one, and I know of many more, hold no grudges against the BACE pilots/cabin crew/engineers et al.

Well thats one way of looking at it Big Nose, but then another way is to say thats 150 well paid pilots jobs up the swanney, to be replaced by 150 less well paid jobs. If they'd stayed in BA somebody would have to have to crew those aircraft, which may have hastened the BACE 146 pilots getting on the BA terms, or could have provided a better paid job for someone whose redundant right now. Furthermore the CFE guys are being forced off an aircraft they may not want to leave and will be faced with touring out of a remote base on a dying fleet. They'll need to undertake a conversion course, which means a costly two month break from flying allowances, and the Captains are likey to lost their commands as they lack the seniority to bid for a command on any other type. Hardly a laughing matter for those guys.

I'll second the above comments on BAR cabin crew. There are a few around who are a waste of space, and there some around on quite a bit of dosh who would be worth every penny of it and more on a long haul aircraft if the company would let them go. Most of the rest just smile and get on with it on a basic of £9K pa and 2-300 quid of allowances in a good month if they're lucky. I was struggling to live on that sort of cash 10 years ago!

Dunno who told them that but it doesn't fit with BA P&P rules. They're not even close to senior enough for a command on any type and once you throw in a conversion course all bets are off. Its regrettable but the word on the street is that they're headed for the right hand seat.

Yup, Hand Solo is right. RHS is all they will get.

Much, in some ways, as it grieves me to admit it, Bignose is right, as are BRAL, BENDYLADY, James Thin and others. Hand Solo, you may or may nor not have some correct info, but without a certified accountant checking the whole of the BA cost structure we will never know. What we DO know is that some trimming is required, and Rod is busy at that. The trimming he's instituting has so far been seen by the markets as far too little too late - so think what it might have been like if he had REALLY addressed the problem.

Secondly, look around you. I don't see the 50 odd Cathay guys taken back yet. I don't see all the BMi 146 guys getting a good deal over their somewhat questionable sudden redundancy; yet you seem to have the mindset someone referred to as typical mainline, and sadly it is. Raise your eyes over the dashboard mate, there's a real world out there, and !!!!! happens!!:eek:

I note your concerns are not for your cadet colleagues who are now flying with us (BACEX) and who have taken a far greater percentile "hit" on remuneration than the LGW or Regional guys you are discussing. To a man, they all appear to be very glad they have jobs. BALPA is not what it was ever perceived to be, (sadly in some respects) and there are very few of us in this current Blairite post-MajorThatcher era who could afford to take all the risks associated with a strike. Most of us, frankly across the industry, think we are pretty fortunate to have jobs at all post September.
(not to mention post joining the loss making BAR - Profitmaking, don't talk rubbish, BHX to a small degree, the rest a thumping huge loss, as you know well!!)
So why not accept this is going to happen, that Scope is NOT going to happen, and wait for the inevitable market upturn, and pilot shortage when we (as pilots) will be in a much stronger position to improve EVERYONE'S Ts and Cs. That, if you think about it, was how BA achieved their current status. It was certainly NOT by lemming like action in the middle of an industry downturn!
:o :o

Hand Solo,
Except for a late appearance by Overstress you are the single BA pilot trying to explain why this is bad for everyone involved in the long run. As another BA pilot I applaud your effort. It is extremely short-sighted to say 'I'm alright, Jack' because it merely opens up the way for BA to franchise out to lower and lower paying companies until someone gets the bright idea of making pilots work for free if they want to do the job so much. In the meantime the reduction in T and Cs doesn't do anything for the pax who pay the same for a ticket regardless of who is operating the flight.
I'm trying to be succinct because I think Hand has made a very rational argument so that's all from me.

I agree with pandora, Hand Solo is the only one talking sense here.

It's understandable that Citi Express pilots want to fly these bigger aircraft, but as I said before, overall this will only result in the same jobs being less well paid in the long run, and ultimately the very people advocating that they should get the work may be the very ones who end up less well off.

Don't be misled into thinking that paying the pilots less is likely to make any difference as to whether the operation is or is not profitable. On a 100+ seat aircraft, the pilot costs are such a small proportion of total operating costs that the difference between a BACE type pay and mainline pay will be negligable in overall operating terms.

As to whether BAR is or is not profitable, that is up to what the accountants wish to show.

Good on you Hand Solo.

Have you honestly thought about what has been suggested, regarding routes being handed down. How would you feel if your employer did that. ?? And not just once or twice.


Nosferatu:
Its as simple as this.
Give ANYTHING away in your T & C's, and you will NEVER see it again. End pf story. Doesnt matter if there is a pilot shortage (thats old chesnuts been around since about '92 hasnt it?) or not, once the management has succeeded in screwing the line bods out of something, why on earth should they give it back?

Funny what everyone else seems to know....

As an RJ skipper at LGW I can categorically say that no-one has been told anything regards commands, fleet changes etc etc....

For those that don't know EOG is no more having officially ceased to be on the 31st March. And on the subject of T's and C's when is Gatwick going to get the same as the Heathrow crews - we all do the same job for the same company after all. Especially in the light of EOG being no more.

By the way Big Nose - I wish I was laughing all the way to the bank, but life is very expensive in the south east and what with Gordon about to increase taxes and all that !!

:( :( :(

Nosferatu - I don't really think you are aggrieved to 'admit' that your colleagues are right. BA does need trimming, a lot of it, and quickly too. So why aren't we getting rid of all those expensive pilots? Is it because they know their requirements for flight crew almost to a man (no pencil and paper stuff here, we're talking big computer processes)? Is it because with natural wastage they know they're going to be short of flight crew soon and there's no slack left in the system to work them harder? Is it because the only way to solve that problem is to eliminate BA flying positions rather than hire new people? If Rod had really addressed the problem we'd have 10000 fewer support staff still for the same number of flight crew, just like Lufthansa.

Your concern for our CEPs is noble, and I'm sure they appreciate a flying job, but have you considered that there are now 150 fewer positions for them in BA? Without scope who's to say that we won't continue down this line? Then there might not be jobs for them for years, and that will really hit them in the pocket. Yeah there's a real world out there, and bad things happen, but don't go overboard with the 'lucky to have a job' line. We're lucky to be born healthy, we're lucky to live in a civilised country, we're lucky we're not starving african children. How little will you accept before you start thinking 'Perhaps I'm lucky, but this stinks', because thats the level management are trying to find and thats what they'll pay you if they can.

As to your point about the profitabilty of BAR, there you are simply passing off fiction as fact. BAR overall has been profitable in recent years. Simple fact. BAs version of the accounts are available, go and look them up if you have time. The RJ move does not guarantee profitability in the regions. There has been no business case made , no cost analysis has been done. The move is a political whim and nothing more. Scope will happen and needs to happen to set the bottom line. Don't fool yourself that a pilot shortage will push up your wages. Easy and Ryanair are offering big wedge to those who'll join, so why aren't your wages going up this year? When did BA ever achieve its T&Cs like that? When its crews were paid better than market rate the company said 'Can only afford market rate'. Now they paid less than market rate its 'We can't afford to pay any more'. The firm won't pay you a penny more than they can get away with, and if you demand a fairer salary then it's up to them to work out which area of gross waste and inefficency to tackle to find the funds.

White Knight we've all wanted that at EOG for years. Our cabin crew manager (Rod Wilcox) told us straight last year "You will NEVER earn LHR pay rates here at EOG/EFG, if you want those T&C's and rates, transfer when the opportunity comes". Simple as that:( .

Just a quick observation everyone. I can see this is an emotive issue for everyone. But Hand Solo does seem very well informed on a wide variety of issues to do with B.A. , his comments are constructive, sensible, well-structured, and thought out. (On all issues he posts on PPRUNE). While some of you let your emotions get in the way when your posting (I'll put my hand up to it too), he doesn't resort to lowering the tone or attacking people personnally unlike some. What he says about B.A. taking stuff away and not giving it back is true.

Guys... "The enemy" is not BAR, BACE,Brymon,EOG, or Mainline B.A. pilots or cabin crew - it's B.A.'s management and the way it's opperating and making us opperate!! I want to see the company come back to profit and will give 200% on whatever contract they give me, but we need to keep what do have at least or we'll have very little.

We've all got to stick together - we're all doing the same job, just on different contracts and T&C's - annoying as that is - I can't see it changing unless we all stick together!!

Keep up the posts Hand!! I'm learning a lot!!!


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If we the staff pull together we might just be able to be this again.

All this squabbling. You lucky, lucky people. All I want is a job. I lost my job in December last year. ATP rated and the only company in the uk who operate them is BACE. But no chance of a job there-already been rejected a few months ago. Tell me, the cadets that are streaming into BACE are they operating the ATP.

Let me tell you once again how lucky you are.

So will there be any hiring for these RJ's once they hit the regions? BA, Citi Express or what ever, does anyone know if there are likely to be any jobs for those currently unemployed?

Chilli Ray

definately no direct hiring on to any fleet, new guys will be taken from a holding pool (filled by those who applied to the flight international ad and past interview etc).

BACE (Ex-Brymon).I've read some of the posts with a real feeling of despair.I realize that sometimes emotions run high, but the contempt and lack of respect for fellow professionals being displayed at times has been dreadful(and it has been shown by both sides).

Divide and conquer seems to be the management ethos at the moment.Can I respectfully recommend that we don't fall for it!

As an interested observer, I cannot understand how employees of various BA divisions allow themselves to fall for the oldest trick in the book......divide and conquer.

Whether you like it or not, you all work for the same company, no matter which division or agreement you belong to. Surely the idea of going to work is to achieve the best remuneration possible so why are some employees trying to drag their collegues down to the lowest level. That is managements job.

Management will try to achieve this by quoting what they want to quote to achieve a result. Thus the Brymon division was far more efficient and profitable than BAR. Anybody could be if they were allowed to regularly cancel flights at short notice due little or no infrastructure in the way of standby crews,aircraft or technical support and then just hand over the ensuing mess to BA and BAR ground staff to sort out and pay for.

Stick together boys and girls.....it is the only way forward

Without wishing to get embroiled in this whole arguement, can I just insert some hard facts as regards the ex-CFE flight crew:

Firstly, as regards to our future prospects. To echo White Knight, we have been told precisely nothing about what will be happening to us. To be sure, there is plenty of rumour control, but we have recieved no information from management whatsoever. Which frankly, given that a key point in the FS&S briefing was 'regular communication from management', is deplorable. Not only has no information been forthcoming, but nobody will even suggest a timescale for when that situation might change. Pathetic.

My limited understanding of these things is that how we are handled depends on how the demise / move of the RJ is classified, as apparently different rules apply. So when Bidding closed (coincidentally today) we don't even know what set of rules we are bidding under. Pathetic.


Secondly, once again the myth that CFE paid poorly. I can state absolutely categorically that many of us require personal differentials to prop up our salary to BA levels. The pay is frozen (which in real terms means a gradual paycut) until BA payscales catch up. In mine and several other cases, demise of our training roles (as the functions transfer to Cranebank) now leaves us with a lower salary in absolute terms. In my case thats quite substantial, although I will admit that it is protected for a year. But in 12 months time, and for another 2 or 3 years therafter, my basic will be less that it was at CFE. Fortunately, better allowances will make good most of the shortfall, but the cost of those allowances is having to do multiple day tours.

And of course, I can expect a drop in those allowances once I am kicked out of the LHS as now appears inevitable.

So basically as far as I'm concerned BA can take their wonderful conditions and insert them in a place where there is a distinct lack of incoming solar radiation. Sideways. Minus vaseline.

Happy Teddy.

It was the cruellist quirk of fate and BA mismanagement that saw CFE absorbed into EOG swiftly followed by the announcement to move the aircraft to the regions.

However it must be said that the RJ is a godawfull aircraft for the punters that is cramped, uncomfortable and slow. For sectors under an hour it is bearable with the current (charter) seating density but to fly it further afield - No thanks. What is more the Club accomodation & product is very much below the standard offered elsewhere in BA for punters who are paying top dollar.

These guys (CFE) were doing fine feeding off the brand but it was decided the brand had become too diluted so we know what happened next. It was an enormous commercial mistake incorporating this operation into BA mainline.

Having said all that we are stuck with the problems of the Status Quo. In their first 5 years the Flight Crew can be directed anywhere at the behest of BA. As for the LHS>RHS situation your current salary becomes preserved until the new scale catches up - at least that is the agreement.

Perhaps someone might correct me but I understand a number of exCFE skippers do not have the BA experience requirements for command in BA ???

Worst case scenario for ex-CFE is that BA turn around and say;

1. Here's your relocation package i.a.w agreements
2. Your current salary is frozen/preserved
3. Your contract of employment is hereby transferred to BACE MAN/BHX

All totally legal and i.a.w. current agreements (bar the contract transfer of course).

This will naturally be against BALPA's wishes but since when did BALPA dictate BA's commercial strategy? That of course would be the principle submission in court when BA sought to get any strike declared illegal.

As for BACE - you guys are working for a wholly owned subsidiary of BA - like-it-or-not. If you are happy to work like the proverbial then good luck, but some of the posts above seem to say:

'I work longer and harder for BACE and I get paid a lot less and I'm really proud of it'

'Scuse me if I sit here scratching my head :confused:

Good defence Hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, however, but don't BAR/BACE already have 100+ seater aircraft in the form of 146's. Therefore it's a bit late in the day to start SCOPE clauses. The RJ has no place in London but it does in the regions. I don't want to fly in the regions under any contract. No offence, boys but my life is here. So, scope or no scope those 150 jobs are still going to stay in LGW/LHR and other people higher up the seniority list than us are still going to have their nose put out of joint because some of us will be directed to LHR. Which, my cynical self tells me has a lot to do with it.

All this to-ing and fro-ing serves little purpose because if LGW hasn't managed to secure parity with LHR in ten years then you are living in a dreamworld if you think BA will ever acceed to your outrageous (even if noble!) demands over 16 RJ's.

As WK and others have said, nothing re commands has been finalised and I have to say to Magplug and others who commented confidently that we would all lose our commands "Of course! " it's a poxy way to treat us.

WHY?

Well let's look at the case history shall we. CFE were offered a number of routes before the merger and all hell broke lose using phrases not unlike the ones used here. The BA Knights were out in force defending T&C's in the name of the average pilot. Basically, the argument went something like this:

"CFE aircraft/pilots should not do BA routes because it takes away jobs from BA pilots and it wears away T&C's blah, blah, blahdy blah." Fine, so where do you now stand when Captains and SFO's say that if BA are going to use other aircraft to do routes previously flown by CFE we should keep our commands and to a certain extent the prospects for them (for SFO's). (I'd like to see how good Balpa are at standing their ground on your behalf if all 17 RJ TRI's handed in their sim keys simultaneously unless they were promised commands at the end of all their efforts! Idea for you there WK!....)

Are you telling us that you want your cake and that you want to eat it? OK, I accept that but you have just been exposed as everything you have been called in this thread by outsiders and all this rubbish you are spurting behind your burnished steel helmet, banner in hand atop your high horse is also going to sound rather hollow to our colleagues up north, as it does to me.

In my year at BA I have to say that all my new colleages that I have met in Jubly are sterling chaps but all this talk of unity and calls to arms are tosh and selfishly driven. Personally, I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA if I take up a much awaited LH slot or command on a 737 because despite what any of you say; it's every man/woman for themselves, believe me.

I do apologise for the attitude (not) but you people bring it upon yourselves.

SS I agree thoroughly. The point about the LHR/LGW is a fine illustration that the company will seek to preserve ANY possible differential wherever it exists.

Please don't take the meaning from my previous post that I am confident that you will lose your command. Quite the opposite in fact...

The company would rather slit their corporate wrists than pay you a Captain's salary to sit in the RHS

As I said before the LHR senior hoards and BLA..PA may have their agenda but look at the economic realities of our situation. I am confident in a corps of this many pilots there will be a 'middle-ground' solution.

Worst case scenario?
 

Actually Magplug, I'm not really sure that is the worst case scenario.

I don't want to move up north. But if I absolutely positively have to fly out of MAN or BHX then so be it. The company can relocate myself, Mrs & Miss Pit Bull and we'll move up there and get on with it.

Trouble is, one of the more feasable sounding rumours floating around is that the company doesn't want to cough up to relocate anyone, they'd rather we positioned (by a/c to Man, by bus to BHX) and then live out of a hotel for 6 days, repeat ad infinitum, or for a year or two until BACE crew trained up or whatever. So from (1 year ago) being in a job where I was away from home for single nights at worst, Myself and family can look forward to a lot of time apart.

Now doubtless many are thinking a year or two isn't that long, pitbulls got lots of time left in BA to rake in the goodies later on. I.E. "Jam Tomorrow". Thats not how I see it. I've been flying for 19 years, I reckon I'm due for some jam today. And 2 years is a long time when miss pitbull is only 2.

Management had better realise there is some deep anger building in the ex-CFE community. We accepted a lot of stuff during the integration with a feeling of inevitability. Now we are being asked to take a lot more. Managements attitude seems to be that we've taken it before, we'll take it again. Presumably they have forgotten about the proverbial straw and the camels back. Only in this case its not so much of a straw as a lorry load of Iron Girders dropped from a great height.

Its even reached the stage of graffitti threatening physical harm to a certain manager. Whilst I would never condone physical violence in labour relations, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if somebody loses their rag and plants one on him.

For myself, if push comes to shove, BA had best appreciate that if they force me to choose between my family and my job, BA will lose in a heartbeat.

CPB