You make so much sense, Secret Squirrel. I only wish more BA guys were like you. You have a lot in common with most of us in BACE. You can fly with me anytime.
Seriously, what do YOU think we should do then? And what would you do if you worked for BACE at this current time.

Happy landings !

Squirrel, don't get me wrong in what I'm about to say, because I do think that what is happening to you and your colleagues is very disruptive and very sad.

I do however, if what seems about to happen does happen, disagree with you in that you should be treated out of seniority to retain your command.

You say that you took four years of hard work to attain it, so you won't give it up lightly.

Had you been in BA for that length of time, either as a DEP or a CEP, you would only just be becoming an SFO. Three years later, you would become SFO1. With luck, maybe after another four years of hard work, including possibly having to study a buisiness course in your own time and putting up with much bull!!!! at such events as "captains for the future", you would then have the seniority to start a short haul command course.

So really, your four years shouldn't mean that you jump the queue, should it?

Go on tour for a few days and look what happens....

Let me try and clear the water a little here, at least as far as my own position is concerned.

The main thrust behind my earlier posts was to try and educate at least some individuals in the BA community that not everything is unequivocally better at BA versus CFE.

Now I accept that may come across as 'living in the past' and therefore it has been suggested that I concentrate on the future. Now thats a valid point, but its one I'm already aware of.

The only reason I raise these issues is to dispell the opinion, held by some but not all BA pilots, that BA is so brilliant that everyone must be overjoyed to be there.

After all, as the saying goes, to fail to understand history is to be doomed to repeat it.

Apreciate if you all can, that 'better off' and 'worse off' are relative terms. Although my lot in life may have deteriorated, its still way better than what I had to go through to get to CFE. Whatever else you may think, the overall process of getting to CFE and thence to BA can not possibly be considered as 'being handed to me on a plate'.

But by the same token I want to make it clear that I have no problem with the CEP population. If you've managed to get BA to shell out for your training and give you a job, then good for you!

However, please don't interpret that as meaning I will silently give up my role as a short haul captain at LGW just because the company has choosen to juggle aircraft around, and some SFOs think they see an opportunity to advance to the LHS. As far as I'm concerned, a plane is a plane. If the P&P rules direct us to LHS anything, then I would have thought that will only happen within the confines of the rules. To those that tell me I have misjudged the feeling of the mainline community in this regard I can only plead 'Guilty'. But surely you're not suggesting that the rules will only be applied if they benefit mainline pilots...

Fundamentally, the events of 9/11 have meant that many peoples career progression has taken a temporary halt in progress. But as far as I can see, (within BA) only the ex-CFE LHS community is looking at a massive step backwards.

To those who have expressed sympathy to our situation, I realise that I have been remiss is expressing my appreciation. Sorry! I do at least feel that some people are now better aware of our circumstances.

Now, finally, can I just return to the topic of discussion earlier in my post.

I say "I'm worse of at BA than CFE".

Can I respectfully suggest that instead telling me to shut up and be grateful / I'm not worthy / CFE integration 'disgusts' part of the BA community etc. etc, that a more useful response would be:

"BAs T&Cs have been so eroded that some things were better even at CFE. This is a sign of how things are going. We must stop it."

Because you can't on one hand tell me how brilliant BA is, and then with any conviction argue the opposite viewpoint when negotiating with management.

Out.

CPB

This is a long and boring post. Skip it if you're just tuning in for the next installment of the soap opera on this thread...


Well, frankly I'm appalled at the attitude shown here by pilots from both mainline and BACE. Of the pilot's I personally know from both groups I have heard nothing like this sort of self-defeating bulls**t, so I can only hope that this thread represents a minority.

I am one of these apparently much detested cadet pilots, sponsored by BA, and very grateful for it. BA, in particular those responsible for the TPS program have been extremely supportive and pleasant, and for that as well, I am grateful. Without the sponsorship, there is *no way* I could have afforded to put myself through training, either through parental contributions or loans. I resent being told that I somehow have less of a right to my expectations of a career because I haven't suffered enough "hardship". It hasn't been financially easy, and I am still in debt.

I believe that the pilot community as a whole has a right to as good t&c's as it can manage to achieve, and those t&c's should not be determined by what state your company is in, but by what similar professionals in the working population get (Doctors? Maybe. Certainly at least lawyers, accountants and market peers). If your airline can only make money by paying its employees less than its competitors, there is something wrong with its business, and asking employees to effectively subsidise its profits is not on. BA seems to concentrate to a great degree on precisely what conditions its pilots work under - as though somehow this is the determining factor in whether it makes a profit. Well, BA feels it needs (currently) around 50000 people to fly its 300 odd aircraft. If you're telling me that barely 3000 of these people determine the profitability of the operation, you must think I came down with the last shower of rain. With the specific example of sending the RJ's to BACE, if these 150 pilots are the make-or-break factor for BA, it may as well give up now. But they're not. You know, and I know, that the reason BA is up Airway 5H1T with a double engine failure, is the gross inefficiency (mainly unnecessary backroom employees) in the airline.

Tinkering with the pilots is simply a convenient thing for managers to do whilst they ignore the more serious problems. And while the pilots and BALPA get obsessed with these trivialities, they aren't dealing with the fundamental problems of the airline and putting any industrial muscle behind forcing necessary changes out of the company, or protecting their t&c's.

If you say you are happy and don't want better wages, I'm sorry, but you're stupid. There are no marks here for altruism. Equally, if you're more concerned with putting all your attention towards blowing out a candle whilst the house burns down around you, you aren't too bright either.

I'm sure that RJ's going to BACE will not result in better t&c's for BACE, nor will it make the BA group profitable, so why do you want them? I'm sure that in the medium term there will be a facility to move from BACE to mainline, so why do you want fewer jobs available in mainline? BACE looks like a great operation (perhaps barring the extra management heaped on them by BA) to work for, and if you wish to be based in the regions, and find your t&c's acceptable then that's great. However there is little point in disadvantaging your colleagues elsewhere for no benefit to yourselves. Who knows, a change of circumstance in the future may mean you wish to move to mainline afterall...

With regard to my own situation, I am told that Mainline will not be requiring my services for at least 18 months, more likely 2 years, and if I'm lucky I might be offered a contract with BACE in the meantime. I would be very happy with that, and will certainly take it - I love flying, and need a job. I do however resent the fact that I am also told BA mainline need pilots now - however to avoid actually employing them they wish to scrap their existing FTL's and squeeze more hours from their existing pilots, not to mention free up a couple of hundred (approx 12 months further delay to recruitment) pilots by moving their a/c elsewhere. I certainly can't believe BALPA are accepting that. You might say I should just be happy BA paid for my license, and I am, but I don't think its right that they should be overzealously delaying recruitment, preventing me from having a career in *any* industry whilst dangling me around on a string. Certainly not when the efficiencies they wish to squeeze from my chosen career are so negligible compared to what needs to be done it's almost unbelievable.

I hope that made sense.

Cu.

PS If people want to flame me loads for this post, then fine, but I'll then delete it, and you'll look silly, and your post will be pointless. Aha.

Allow me to clear up one small point. I have nothing against CEP's per se; just those who get up on their high seniority horse as if that was all that mattered in the world.

That said:

JT

I'm sorry but I have no advice other than what I have already given: Beware of prophets bearing gifts!

Snooky

Fair point but I didn't join BA. They recruited me, as I came (with four stripes!), to do a job for them. Yes, they reward me well and yes, better than before. EOG pilots didn't want me to stay at CFE and do any routes that were previously done by them so they forced BA to integrate us. No complaints so far. Now we're in and BA have decided that the RJ is more trouble than it's worth (funny how we always managed to keep the program running on greased wheels). So what do you all do?, you throw the book at us; you shake our hand with one hand and slap us across the head with the other. What would you have me do, Snooky?

To my mind - and I'm 100% sure you'd agree if you were in my shoes - It makes little or no sense to replace a captain with two years experience (as I will have by the time I'm shifted off - maybe more!) with an FO who is next in line just because....(s)he's next in line. Not to mention having to keep paying me command salary! I don't think it would make much sense in The City either and yet here you all are criticising BA for being inefficient and wasting money. I'm not religious but I went to a catholic school and one of the quotes which crops up most in life is the one about noticing splinters in other people's eyes and not seeing the plank sticking out of your own.

I repeat, it was BA pilots who brought on this situation in the first place so it seems only fair that you now face the consequences rather than shove us to the forefront to pay for your lack of foresight.

I had intended my previous post to be the last on this thread, but having read Cus post I thought a response was justified.

Well, not so much a response as a gesture of appereciation. Your post was at worst medium length, and definitely not boring - You have I think encapsulated the situation precisely.

I'm only sorry that your own circumstances are so unfortunate.

I can identify with your situation having suffered bad timing myself - got my ticket just before Air Europe went under, which I view as being the beginning of the last recession.

I won't insult you by offering a platitude about how it will all come good in the end.

But I just hope that it does.

And you're right of course - being grateful to someone (in this case BA for sponsoring) does not give them carte blanche to behave however they like towards you.

Best wishes.


CPB

Regardless of the real cash flow/profitability accounting cascade and responsibility allocation for the profit/loss account, one thing seems fairly obvious:
Namely that household names in the Airline world are falling by the wayside, changing, and/or restructuring to best cope with the economic and socio-business changes we've all seen over the last couple of years.

What do we see from BA? We see an attempt to resist any and all change perceived as remotely disadvantageous to their pilots. To ensure this happens, we see an attempt to remove the BALPA GenSec, and have a BA line pilot elected instead - allegedly so as to get a further election to secure a new GenSec who will cause more industrial disruption to secure better terms and more money for BA.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is ridiculous. Fiddling while Rome burns, behaving like a dinosaur...........

Pontius,

Speaking as a Roman Dinosaur, I think your perspective is all wrong.

Our loads are back up, the figures are looking good, the institutions are buying the stock and there will soon be a massive pilot shortage.

The BA Airbus fleet will soon be VERY short of pilots.

So, again, your post does not gel with the current feeling in BA.

BA pilots standing up for themselves is between BA and BALPA, no-one else, no matter what anyone else thinks. Our management cannot be trusted with a 'concession' unless it applies to their own airline travel!

You all look after your jobs, we'll take care of ours. If you join us, then your opinion becomes more relevant!

Pontiuspilot you appearred to have walked straight into Mervyn Granshaws trap. The election of the BALPA GS is not really for this thread but I think its an important issue for all of us.

BALPA leadership have attempted to rubber stamp the re-election of Chris Darke by hushing up the requirement to re-elect him. JF is standing to prevent this. Its not relevant which candidate one prefers, but now at least CD must issue a manifesto setting out his goals so that we have a standard by which to measure his performance. For a man to receive £100000 of all our money without spelling out in detail what he intends to do for it is unacceptable.

BALPAs financial situation is currently fairly bleak, despite membership increasing significantly. There has been inadequate explanation of this anomaly. Also there is evidence, certainly of a laxness towards personal accounting, if not dishonest use of the associations funds, identifed in the accounts. Its all our money, so why has there been no open debate on this subject?

Why has MG sought to influence the outcome of the election so blatantly, using association funds to campaign on behalf of one candidate, breaking association rules in the process? Why has he sought to portray JFs nomination as a BA conspiracy and why has he sought to turn this into a 'David and Goliath' campaign with big bad JF efficiently mobilising his (minority BALPA group) BA membership against poor 'David' Darke, who only has at his disposal all the assets of the association, a mailshot to every member and a page in The Log?

There is something rotten in our association and these latest shenanigans suggest it goes all the way to the top. If 'standing ovation' CD is so confident of his support why is he trying to rig the vote? Why does MG feel he has to support him. And why are they trying to sway your opinion whilst denying their opponents the same opportunity?

Who you vote for on the day is your choice, but I would implore you to reserve judgement until both candidates have had a fair opportunity to state their case. Whichever side of the fence you're on let us all at least unite behind the principal that our association is democratic, not autocratic.

Thanks for that guys. You make a good point. I shall not make up my mind until I have read both manifestos. As you say, a 100k salary should have SOME justification.
CD is taking up the cudgel directly with our boss ref. current Ts and Cs in BACE. Our CCs have done a great job so far, despite contimual obfuscation from management. If CD wants our votes, he will have to produce the goods.

Secret Squirrel

For one you don't know my history, so please don't assume that I woke up one morning picked up the Times and thought 'oooh BA want pilots I think I'll do that !!!!'. It took me 3 attempts over 4 years to be taken on by BA and with £14000 of flying debt already hanging around my shoulders. Oh and by the way CEPs start on £10000 a year less than DEPs and have to repay the company £15000. Who do you really think takes the brunt of the training costs at the end of the day?

Please do us all a favor and wind your neck in.

Squirrel

You say that "It makes no sense to replace a Captain with two years experience with an FO who is next in line just because he is next in line."

That FO may have waited over 10 years for his turn in line to come, and may have many years experience as a Captain before joining BA.
The p&p rules are there to be followed. I accept that maybe personally you may not have chosen to join BA, but now you are in I don't see why you should jump the queue. The cost of your extra pay is not going to worry a management who can blow millions on a variety of whims.

Incidentally, the rules do say that directions to a particular seat or fleet can only occur after all valid bids have been satisfied.

This has been a very wide ranging thread, with some valid points made on both sides, including interruptions by various people, in the luxury of total ignorance, who appear to have nothing more than an axe to grind - Very welcome, informative, and interesting - NOT!

I am actually interested in the topic that this thread is supposed to be about! So, can anyone please tell me what is the very latest regarding the future crewing of 100+ seat jets in the regions. Have any firm decisions yet been taken? Has any timescale been suggested for such decisions? Is there an outcome that could satisfy both pilot groups?

To put my cards on the table, I am mainline, longhaul with a real desire to return to the regions. I will almost certainly take a pay cut to do so! Should that be a problem for anyone? I have to say that from where I am, Hands Solo speaks for many of us.

For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .

Tandemrotor, watch this space tommorrow as there is an annoucement about to be made regarding BACE reorganising in the regions, it may include info on the location and who will be flying the RJ 100s.

Tandem,

Talks between BA and BALPA are progressing but no decisions have been made. This topic obviously raises many issues but because of the sensitivity of the talks and the commercial implications no news is being 'leaked'. So even though it seems like it has all gone very quiet, there is lots going on in the background. No, I'm not part of the BALPA team (and certainly not on the Dark side.....no matter how you spell it :p ) but these little birds keep telling me things, obvioulsy without giving away any of the stuff they're not meant to. I don't know if it will be the case and realise you're not too close to LGW, but I would imagine the LGW boys will be saying something about it at the meeting on Thursday (1900, Renaissance Hotel LGW if you didn't know). Yes, this is BA BALPA members only.

Finally, since Pontiuspilot has chosen such an original name :rolleyes: , some of those who know me have been commenting on some of my posts recently. Please note my pseudo-name and understand that I definitely do NOT share some of his views......particularly regarding the MG letter and especially NOT about keeping Darke. But then, I am in BA, so I would obviously be trying to oust him, because I want BALPA only to look after BA pilots.......trite idiots (not directed at Pontiuspilot) :mad:

Pontius

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info.

Does the LH life not suit, Tandemrotor?

Incidentally I can verify your comments on the attitudes of some of the BACE crews @ BHX to those around them.

BACE guys, some of your number (a small minority as ever) are hacking off the BA dispatchers and CC.

Not sure where the 'attitude' comes from but I can certainly say that BA BHX is (or was before FS&S) a happy base - no need to upset the applecart guys, we are all in this together now.

Yeah, Homer, whatever you say.

Snooky:

Please, get real old man. Do you perchance think I sprang up with this year's daffodils or something? If you're going to qualify your arguments at least do it more convincingly. An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever and managed to cheat the system by doing less hours than everybody else. In any case if they were neither they would have been able to bid for a command long before I arrived.

Some of you may not know but there is a Balpa meeting for members only somewhere down in the LGW area this Thursday. I am going to be there so you can all spit on me there if you want. But seriously, I believe that this very topic - amoung others - is on the agenda.

Salutations

Squirrel

You did mention earlier that places would be found for you at LGW or LHR. I agree that my 10 year assertion related to LHR, and I stand by that.
I know that in the past EOG commands have come up much sooner than this, and I really hope that in the next few years this can accomodate you and your colleagues.
So long as the system is followed noone can have any complaints.
Let's see what happens soon.

Latest news from us here at BACE is that we have now, today, been formally told we are getting the RJs. For those of a suspicious mindset, we have not been SPECIFICALLY told when the training starts, and hence when we get into the flight deck. I can't help but wonder though, at the mindset of the BA people. There are categorically no people going to lose their jobs - they'll be absorbed by other fleets. I would bet anyone wanting to move to BACE will be able to, and at a more attractive package than the one they used to have with CFE. If not, then a different fleet at their present base. If they do lose a Command, then no loss of money anyway. Doesn't sound too drastic to me, though I must say I would be pretty disappointed to lose my LHS, (though I'd be more disappointed to keep it with a pay cut.
What on earth is the problem then? I think it is the union worrying about future potential encroachment onto other fleets, that's what!!! And it WILL happen chaps, not soon, but eventually.

And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all. And to our relief, they are all fantastic people too, just like our own Cabin Crew, but somewhat better paid (and that's not their fault)
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham. I CAN speak for Manchester, where we have always had to suck the hind teat, and generally been treated as second class operators, always being last to be serviced by handling etc. The BA union problem is most obvious of all at Manchester, very much a "not my job sir" or "we'll get to you when we've dealt with the other......" And this attitude in turn is probably created by under resourced, (though fantastically over paid) staff levels. And there, the one fact explains the other, methinks. Outsource the ground handling of BA and that would save a huge sum I would bet. Don't laugh, Sir Micky B has done that, and he was always more innovative than any of the BA placemen.

Hope some of that helps boys, lets all live together, work together, and stay in business for a bit longer eh?:rolleyes:

For the love of God.......

Pontius, there are many Patels, Singhs, Smiths, Browns and goodness knows what else around. There are at least three other Pontius variants that I know of.

:eek:

To explain:

1. I'm against the forces of Darkeness.

2. I think MG made a huge mistake with his patronising letter.

3 I work for BACE, I'm happy here, so obviously I'm all for the
RJs coming to us at Manchester.

4. Your tone and attitude confirm the regional view about
mainline; a view shared by the majority of non - BA.

:D Do get a life old chap. Chin chin!

:p

Dear Guys 'n' Gals at BACE. Just heard the news about the 500 jobs to go. I hope you are all going to be OK on the flight deck, and the cabin crew too as they usually get the rawest deal. In view of this didturbing news I am going to take Homer's advice and wind my neck in as my problems seem trivial in comparison to the possibility of some of you losing your jobs.

On a lighter note I'm pleased - if you all are - that you are getting the RJ's. You'll find it an endearing aircraft to fly once you get used to its many quirks. I have to admit that since we have joined BA the aircraft is much nicer to fly. The main reason for this is that we don't have to put up with so many ADDs. At CFE, if there was a defect it sometimes ran for weeks. There were many reasons for this and not all attributable to the engineering department. Let me tell you that flying with no FADEC and no APU on a crappy day is no joke and at CFE it happened at least once a month. When you're on it you will remember my words, believe me!

The bad side of the RJ is that anything to do with valves is notoriously unreliable; it's not RVSM cleared so you can't make the most of its 35,000 ft ceiling; the APU (or fifth engine as the wags like to call it) is useless and if you're anything over 39 tonnes the climb rate is abysmal above 15,000 ft. Someone once decribed it as a difficult aeroplane to operate but very easy to fly. The main culprit is undoubtedly the overhead panel. In view of the fact that BA would rather we didn't fly aircraft, I'll be glad to see the back of it after four years.

However, it does have many endearing qualities: namely that it is virtually impossible to do a hard landing or strike a pod; it flies very well and is very stable. The whole plane is very overengineered structurally so if you get caught in a storm as I once did, just sit it out because I guarantee the wings won't fall off. Also, the flight deck is quite spacious even if the cabin isn't.

Good luck with it, guys. I'm sure I'll be seeing some of you up in the regions for a year or two as we'll be doing 'w' pattern five day tours whilst you're all being trained up on it.

Regards, SS

Thanks mate. Thanks for the good wishes, we dunno yet how many will be redundant, but it don't look good in Belfast, Cardiff or Bristol. Some suspicious jet removals from Southampton as well. I think the cabin crew will be worse hit than the FD.

Anyway thanks for your thought, clearly a gent! The RJ should still be an improvement on the Embraer, what a real cheap nasty dog THAT is!

Squirrel

<An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever >

I don't think such creatures exist, the writer referred to L/H

You guys hung up on loss of command: A bitter pill to swallow, but that is the price for joining the rollercoaster which is the BA master seniority list.

I appreciate you may not have had a lot of choice in it, but from where I sit, an RJ command does not cut a whole lot of ice. There are lots like me in BAR and we expect you guys to take it like a man, as we did when we joined the 'company' with probably a lot more experience than yourselves.

2 yrs in the LHS of an RJ (with not much experience prior) does not qualify for much in the BA melee (moulin for ex-charter types!)

Oswaldo:

And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all.

Now I know your talking bollox, unless its your flight crew you're talking about. I think you have been talking to some fantasist colleagues of yours if you're trying to imply some imaginary divide between flight deck and cabin crew at BHX or even MAN. Perhaps you should tag along on a nightstop, or maybe come to next years flight&cabin crew xmas bash, or even just travel on one of our flights to learn the truth.

For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham.

Again, you've been speaking to the delusional! I challenge you to find a station anywhere on the BA network that has more efficient and willing ground staff than BHX, and I include all BA staffed stations we serve, all stations staffed by 3rd party contractors and all charter destinations. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE turns around an A319 faster. Ramp staff, engineers, despatchers, customer service, cleaners, cabin crew, flight crew, ops staff, crew controllers. Everybody works together, on first name terms with no pompous heirarchies, to get the job done quckly and properly. I can only assume that your colleagues who spin you this absolute garbage include the BACE Captain who shouted at one of our dispatchers "YOU! I WANT AN F'ING GPU ON THIS F'ING AIRCRAFT RIGHT F'ING NOW". He probably still wonders why nobody has the time of day for him. He never got the GPU either.

When it comes to spinning garbage, Mr Solo, you are in a class of your own. I don't know which Fleet you are on, though RHS seems like a good bet, lacking the basic judgement you clearly do.
Whatever, since you see fit to spread falsehoods about our Company, don't expect any sympathy when the time comes for the next tranche of BA aeroplanes, (including yours) to come our way!:mad:

Touched a nerve there have I taxi dancer? Was it you? I'll admit to being a bit unfair there by stating it was a BACE Captain, because that implies it could have been a Brymon crew and I'm assured they're generally a good bunch. I should really have said it was a BRAL Captain. For this and other exciting diatribes why not ask your friendly neighbourhood dispatcher next time you transit through Birmingham.

I'm not saying everyone is like that, I'm sure they're not, but Oswaldo shouldn't throw stones when he's in a glass house.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Omigod, you are so funny. Hand Solo, with your talent for accuracy and discerning, impersonal debate, you should get a job writing an astrology column, or maybe as an agony uncle in a teens magazine.

Do keep it up; your contribution to the intellectual level of this debate, and its relevance to the thread itself - not to mention the fostering of good relations twixt us and you mainline lot is unsurpassable.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha:D :D :D

Well Mike I'd love to have an informative and impersonal debate based purely on the facts of the case. In fact we almost achieved that several pages back, but most of us gave up under the weight of vitriolic, lazy nigel, who-do-you-think-you-are, I'm cheaper than you, can't weight to take your aircraft and knock you down a peg or too comments. As they say, you can't debate with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you on experience.

Good Lord; it really is beginning to look like they have taken my advice to be nice to one another. They are all beginning to kiss and make-up in true BA style. Well done chaps!

Yes, but look at the forced smiles! :D

Oswaldo you are wrong on a number of points....
The flightcrew cabincrew relationship at BHX is extremely good I have never seen any behaviour that would substantiate your slurs.
Secondly the ground staff are very good as Hand Solo said they can turn a 319 very quickly and we all get on well. I have not been to Man recently but I suspect they are suffering from poor morale and are under resourced on the front line. Lastly there are times when you have to wait as bigger aircraft are dealt with first it makes sense.

Illogical Bigtrousers.

If two aircraft arrive together, one big, one small, then I can see the prioritising of the bigger - not for any logical reason, but purely because of its size, it happens all the time.
The logistician would say that the total time taken to process both aircraft is a constant, and therefore, given a similar departure time for their respective next sector, the smaller aircraft will be delayed much more than the bigger, should the bigger be turned round first. Therefore it makes sense to actually process the smaller aircraft first, as it will be completed much sooner.

Unfortunately, what happens is that the bigger aircraft is often processed first, even when it arrives AFTER the smaller one, and has a much later departure slot than it's smaller colleague. Thus, the end result is a very late smaller aircraft, leading to extreme unpopularity of BA Handling (from the smaller crew) and BA generally (by the smaller aircraft's pax). It is impossible to set a time constraint, ie Big aircraft always first up to a ten minute cutoff of disparity in arrival times - so the system becomes illogical both in planning, as well as as execution.

If YOU had been consistently de-prioritised by BA handling, you might see matters a little differently. The real tragedy of logic is that it is still a BA passenger, (on the smaller aircraft) who is the real loser. He flies with lo-cost next time, thus we all lose.

The inability of pilot groupings to work together is quite cosmic, I sometimes think we deserve the shafting that management hand out - you don't see management berating each other in public forums, and squabbling over Ts &Cs.

Sorry to have gone off message on this thread, but everyone else does. My next bid is for an RJ!!:D :D :D

I do not think this can be argued without specifics eg time place flt number etc and even then it is a bit pointless.
In general I do trust the ground staff at BHX to get on with the job in a sensible manner. But then I would say that as an Airbus driver! If I was in your position I might see things differently.
I have encountered some bias in handling elsewhere. It has been common practice regardless of loads to allocate remote or second class stands for regional airbus flights in favour of LHR operations at EDI and DUS. It is a bit annoying but keep politely asking the ground staff why and bang in a voyage report if you are not satisfied with the answer.
It would be good if we could all get along a little better. The common denominator in most of the arguements we have is the BA management and its decision making ability/logic/insanity etc
Regards BP

I can't believe this thread has degenerated so. If you all just took a step back and had a look at the posts relating to who's getting on best with this set of ground staff. It's pathetic.

This issue of who gets to fly these RJ's is doing a very good job of setting one pilot group off against another.

I work for BACE and think that some of my colleagues are being a bit premature about "we will get this and we will get that". Guys it isn't in the bag.

And to my more distant colleagues in BA BALPA, why are you trying to stitch up a deal which does BACE down without even having the courtesy to let our CC into the picture. You may find that there are common areas of interest while all you're doing at the moment is making us very suspicious of your intentions and not very supportive. I might also add that we can only go by what we're told from on high by our managers which is that BACE will be operating the RJs.

Most of both pilot groups would agree that BA made a mistake absorbing CFE. It would appear from some ex-CFE posters here that the BA pilot workforce made mistakes too in the way it approached pilots who they now end up working with. Why tread the same weary path now.

So it would appear that we are well and truly divided. Our lords and masters must be laughing very hard.

Ten out of ten for the Dog!

Couldn't have put it better. What mainline should be patting themselves on the back about is the deal they may have got.
Think about it, you have lost some aging minijets, and some of your ex-CFE blokes MAY have to return to the RHS. In return, you have landed us with some of the most incompetent middle and senior management we have ever come across. Our own lot had their faults, but holy smoke, dental Floss, Team McLLaren and the rest aare truly awesome in their inability to face facts, control costs, commu nicate, and most of all MANAGE!!!!

I'm sure just the loss of these guys will put you firmly back into profit. Tell you what, you can keep your RJs if you take back your management, up to and including Evans and Hearn!

Forget the bloody RJs, we don't need them.
How about you just take your BA guys back, and let us get on with earning a living!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

No way! You can keep those managers! I'm starting to agree with you that maybe we have got the best deal!:p

For the benefit of CLAD, quote from the recent BA BALPA newsletter on the subject of scope:

Our proposals would...............Come to an agreement which will link pilots in BA CitiExpress (BACX) with BA mainline pilots, offering access to mainline contracts and seniority.