WWW
 

I wouldn't call you selfish. You and I came from the fortunate era when airlines were willing to stump up cash and invest in you. That has been good for me.

My licence has: B757/B767, A320, A330, A340 and BD Global Express ratings in it. And most importantly, we hold our Commands.

You see, that is the rub. If you're lucky early on and get a lucky break, it is likely that more "lucky breaks" follow - because you've got valuable experience and people can see it and want it.

Consider your situation WWW. I believe you DID do the "hard yards" and instructed, flew smaller machinery and worked bloody hard to get into easyJet. Good for you. You also have offered good advice to wannabees in the past - indeed your advice about borrowing too much was prescient (but also obvious).

However, things could have been very different for you and I. Imagine if your only route had been the CTC way? This is the sh1tty reality now, because instructing/twin time and even TP time will NOT get you into easyJet or many other places besides. The only way to go is to open the cheque book and bend over - unless you want a career in regional TP's.

The old route has been blocked, indeed permanently closed it would seem to anyone without a large backer. And that includes probably a great many talented youngsters who just can't raise the cash.

I don't think it'll go back the way it was and that is why those of us who are considerably more fortunate than those coming through now should be wary. Once the majority of pilots in any company are on lower scales, then the old guard are at risk of being squeezed too. So, for now you're sitting pretty. But just as the Junior FO has lost out recently, it could be us more senior guys next.

I can't understand why you needed to bring up your salary? Absolutely pointless and if I'm honest rather sad.:uhoh:

easyJet salaries until very recently were published on the main company website under the careers section though I note they have now been removed. A google search or glance at PPJN reveals current salary rates in a millisecond.



I pointed out the fact that easyJet salaries are competitive in response to Doug the Heads familiar contention that it is not a career airline. Whatever that may be. easyJet Captains in Italy, France and Spain all make north of €170,000 and take home over €9,000 a month. That's better than BA training captain money and you don't even have to commute to Hounslow from your villa. Not long ago I turned down the offer to move to easyJet Rome and give myself a 40% pay rise. A point I chose not to make as this isn't a willy waving competition about how much we get paid..



What's wrong with a career in regional airlines? If everyone else is off writing massive cheques to large overpriced FTOs then that leaves the field clear for people who want to fly real aeroplanes following just £46,000 of modular training. A cost which has never been cheaper in real terms. The wages of non-large-jet airline pilots will probably rise as fewer and fewer competent people come out of the training system which isn't just a glorified JOC course.

And anyway is it really worse to spend £85,000 but get all your training from zero to A320 base training done in 18 months followed by a first year of A320 flying on about £20,000 followed by the next year on >£32,000 followed by a permanent contract the year after next on >£50k?

It took me a good few years of sh1tty pay, sh1tty conditions and constant worry to get my first airline job. I was nearly killed twice whilst instructing. And I mean nearly killed. In fact my first instructing job was replacing this guy.

Of course I lament the lowering of the first rungs of the professional ladder. I clearly see how that drags the whole ladder lower. But I can't get hysterical about the self inflicted damage the Wannabe zombie army does to itself and I can't lose a sense of perspective over it.


WWW

One wonders whether the plight of the guys at the bottom of the EZY pile is related to the fact that:

Nah, of course not.

:E

I agree 100% with studi.
The problem is with the Brits and BALPA, no backbone and it will get worse. It is no coincidence that in the countries where the capt gross 170k/yr there are no flexicrew allowed by collective labour agreement. Flexicrew and cadets are only to be found in the UK. (France and Germany only with very strong restrictions as I understand it)
I wish it was different and it is time to be united. With regards to conditions easyJet is divived in easyJet UK and the rest. It´s a shame that in the UK they have allowed to lower T+C´s for new-joiners (read: cadets/flexi).
As someone pointed out it will only get worse. The rot will continue all the way up and the only way to stop it is to be completely united in the whole company. In the continent it works. So it should also work in easyJet as a whole.
No compromises. The company can easily afford to have everyone on decent contracts. They are just being greedy and the easiest victims are the workforce in the UK (now). I for one am in a very comfortable position (capt Europe) but if we allow this rot to continue it will reach all of us at some point.

Here is the problem...
 

WWW, you said "What's wrong with a career in regional airlines? "

Nothing, but here is another issue with the open cheque book culture: There is even LESS chance of a TP job than ever, because guess what?

All those experienced TP Captains and FO's who would have (once upon a time) been attractive to easyJet are no longer of any interest at all because they haven't paid a fortune or gone to the "correct" school.

That means the TP guys are effectively trapped and there is absolutely no movement in the labour market.

And that is good for no-one.

I find myself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Were you to listen to the disenchanted contributors here like Doug The Head and others, you could come to the conclusion that there was no hope for the airline industry. Whilst I do not share that opinion I think there are grounds for concern. The simple fact is that this is a supply and demand industry-right now at the bottom end of the market there is significantly greater supply of new pilots than demand for them.

You will find that www is not alone in his views- I have some sympathy for them. Many pilots have had considerably more stressful financial experiences in aviation than those experienced by easyJet flexicrew pilots. So on one side, it is good for those guys to actually consider how fortunate they are. Even the guys leaving to join BA are in a very fortunate position - they turned up with 200 hours and here they are now with a guaranteed career structure ahead of them. That, however, is only one side of a complex argument. The difficulty we have to recognise is that from the first day these new pilots join they are totally disengaged from and disgruntled with easyJet. I have always believed that complete engagement with the pilot community is the way ahead. I also believe that our CEO wants that too. At this minute and due to dreadful advice from her Group Ops Director, she is unwilling to make the necessary commitments to eradicate temporary contracts. As I have stated many times on this forum, I believe that temporary contracts are counter-productive and not in the interests of either easyJet or its pilots. They have damaged our reputation and shown our management in a bad light. Any pay deal this year that does not deal properly with this issue is unacceptable to me.

Opinions are as varied as the people who emit them.

I started with CTC in 2007 when Flexicrew didn't exist and I didn't blindly go into it. I did my research, I went to the bank first and asked them how much a junior FO earned and how much I would have after tax to budget with.

I then went to FO's themselves to corroborate this data, I spoke to guys in various phases of training about the options they were being offered and then decided to apply.

The market went ape!!!! after that and I finished my training in 2009 just after Flexicrew started, I had to wait a whole year to be offered a TR which I had to partly fund. (That was not a part of the original 2007 deal).

Once I got into Flexicrew I spent 8 months earning a flat £1200 per month, I wasn't allowed to book leave during these months. EasyJet started opening internal recruitment for FO's in Europe from their flexicrew pile and they asked for 500 hrs on type so there was a pressure to go and get the hours ASAP to be able to qualify for one of those employment runs.

The downside to this was that I went to work a couple of times feeling a bit worse than the point where I now, with a permanent contract, would call in sick.

After starting flexicrew proper, past 8 months on line, there was always a huge feeling of panic when the rosters came out and it wasn't past the magic number for your circumstances, I needed 70 hours per month to pay rent and all the rest. Every time rostering or crewing changed my roster to take hours away I got more pissed off and bitter with them.

Flying 900hrs per year, which I almost did during my first year is a job I never took lightly, I managed my sleep schedules to make sure I always arrived rested and all the other work/life balance sacrifices you make to perform properly but during all this time the overriding factor in my life was that I was !!!! scared of the 16th of the month when they would show me whether I would be able to afford living.

This stress is not healthy for someone operating a jet, it is not healthy for the skippers who fly with us when we're fatigued, stressed and sick yet we show up to work in order to not lose hours and pay.

I then transitioned into a permanent contract in Europe and I'm pretty sure I won't leave this airline for any other unless things change drastically, EZY is a proper career airline for some, myself included, you just have to jump through a lot of hoops before you get there.

To balance the argument, when I finished my training and CTC didn't offer any reassurances about how long we would have to wait in the pool, I sent hundreds of CV's to flight schools and small operators hoping to be able to get either a FI position or some sort of job where I could build some hours and there were none unless you went to botswana and gambled 3 months of your life camping there in order to get an interview.

Flexicrew is unhealthy for the industry, it alienates you from the company you work for and from the airline you operate in. It feels wrong for everyone but the higher ups who see the advantages in flexibility and lower wages for the first 8 months. However, it is the best way into an airline after training so I would do it again in a heartbeat.

You've hit the nail squarely on the head there.


WWW

The sooner this story gets into the newspaper, the sooner those :mad: you have as managers start respecting its workforce.

What a shameful carry on

According to my calculations, the CPTs in Europe are on ca 160-165 k euros per year, bar Spain, so slightly less than WWW's figure. At present, the German 5 year captains are on ca. 160 k rising to 165 k in May 2012. As SFO in Europe, you'll be on 90-100 k euros per year depending on where exactly. Your take home pay is, as always, dependant on personal circumstances. The numbers include basic pay, loyalty pay, bonus pay and flight pay, so a total figure.

Promotion to SFO used to be upon getting your ATPL, but I believe the requirement has changed to 2000 hours in easyJet.

It may be a bit tacky to talk about money, but knowing pilots, the numbers will be read with interest by many not in legacy airlines.

Down the pub, at the wedding reception, on the fairway - it may be tacky to talk specific pay details because the lesser well paid members of the conversation might be embarrassed. Everyone gets that. An anonymous Internet forum where nobody has met one another and never will is utterly different.

Rome based easyJet skippers take home €9,000 a month and bonus month is over €20,000. I've seen the payslips and wondered why I don't join them often enough..

All this is but a few short years away from all the Flexicadet pilots. Yeah it would be better to be a senior BA/Air France skipper. But hey, it could be a lot lot worse. My first Chief Pilot told me one day on line training that there is no perfect airline job and he had seen a lot of pilots make themselves miserable believing there was. It was good advice. Probably the best I ever received.


WWW

So in conclusion, there is no prospect of anyone with any experience joining easy in the near future? (Parc contracting not included!)

I am more than just a little disillusioned with this industry at the moment. I have nearly 3000hrs flying medium jets and apart from the Middle East there is almost nowhere that will take me without a type rating and the willingness to work as a contractor for an extended period (Since BA didn't want me). It would seem that experience is no longer an advantage in this industry, a very sad state of affairs for us all.

There really is no excuse for this in an airline like easy which is well unionised. Does anyone think the results of project Merlin will open the doors for experienced, non-rated pilots to join on a permanent contract?

WWW are you a trainer? Otherwise how does a UK Captain make £118k plus pension if they're not a trainer?

Studi, I believe one of the problems relating to why BALPA's hands are tied is that European employment rights on the Continent are a lot stronger than in sweatshop UK.

BALPA and the permanent workforce can't legally go on strike over the issue of flexicadet. I stand to be corrected though.....

Not a trapper but have >10 years service. Last years £118k included £10k of FRV payment. This years pay rise plus £3k worth of free shares means means I expect to see a similar amount emptied into the coffers of Weasley Towers this year. Additionally the special dividend payment on the company shares is worth over £8k to someone like me whose been in the schemes since they started in 2005.

There's plenty to criticise and moan about but the pay is not near the top of the list once you're past the flexicrew stage. All FO's once they get onto a permanent contract in the UK gross >£50k and they will have had the opportunity to go sausage side and turn that into >€90k if they wanted.

It is tough in the early days and with a massive loan around your neck. No doubt about that. But the destination is worth the effort financially.


Ryanair are taking of £30k off people to get into a Brookfield contracting job with them. You want me to give up pay to go on strike that will deny my employer the chance to offer the new market rate for labour? Why don't the CTC pilots themselves join BALPA, or any union, and threaten to go on strike themselves unless their terms are improved by their employer?

If there is a big queue of people willing to handover a six figure sum to land a job then there is no way you or I is going to find a way to stop a company from taking their money. In fact what is the morality of me interfering in a legal contract entered into willingly between employer and would-be employee? Would I have been glad the BA pilots went on strike to stop Go-Fly offering me my first airline job?

The world moves on. Conditions are lower but then that is the same for many professions. There's a big world of very bright, very capable people out there and if I was still earning senior barristers wages in exchange for 450hrs a year and a new jag every other then, frankly, it wouldn't be sustainable.

Sad but also true.

WWW


ps Just received word that some external recruitment will soon be advertised for the new base in Lisbon. Initially two aircraft and operating on a two year fixed term contract basis. Another twist.

A lot of people reading Terms and Endearment will be experienced guys not just beginners. So how do people like me, 4000hours, 3000 jet (but not A320 rated) get in on this Easy gig? Is the only way to start by paying for a type rating and spend a few years on flexicrew? The destination is certainly very appealing to me in the long run...

The word is that an entry scheme akin to TRSS for non-type-rated experienced pilots is under consideration again but you'll probably have to hold your breath until mid-2012 possibly even 2013. My source is as reliable as any.

Experienced F/O recruitment starting again soon, watch this space!!. Im very happy at EZY, been here a few years now, and wouldn’t leave EZY (at the min..lol). Pay is good, morale is going up and up, due to the new CEO looking to please us pilots, I would say its industry standard pay if not above but the guys in Europe are on a lot more….captains E12K a month F/O’s E6.5K a month (better unions than BALPA!!), I’ve seen a captain with E25K in a month’s salary due to loyalty bonus and company performance bonus the guys get in spain. Working hours vary from base to base, LGW guys work hard, other bases I’ve heard guys averaging 60hrs a month, guess it depends on where your based, and how long the sectors are. If you live down south and are under 30yrs id say BA but if you don’t want to live down south or don’t fancy spending your life commuting/dragging a suitcase around, I.e location/roster stability is important EZY is a career airline fact. 2 things are for sure though, flexi crew was/is a bad idea and hopefully will go away, and really its only BA or EZY for a decent working environment and job security.:}

I think things will soon change for worse again.. watch this space..

Kidding right?

Do you really believe she wants to please us ?

A bit naive I say
The figures you are referring to are before tax..

....of course before tax, but look how much tax is charged in France and Spain....don’t the guys there get 5 years at something like 20% and in France....well at the end of the year I hear of people paying E5K!!!!

So are you telling me you prefer the days of Andy H??? Do you want him and Corr back do you?? Because right now it does feel like the company care in certain areas (project merlin/usay etc)....not saying it will last but I’m happier now than a few years ago:=

Captain span, have a look at what has been said today on the easyJet forum..

WB is no better than CV