Anyone interested in the Profession anymore?
 

Difficult one this really. But just interested to know if you feel part of a profession, or if its all me me me. Which forum should this be in.........dunno.

Profession?
 

No.

A profession would have certain standards of behavior and conduct.

Every time some schmuck shows up drunk for work it makes us look bad.

Every time you show up unshaven for work it makes us look bad. (It has to do with your O2 mask not sealing properly, primarily something that Europeans are bad at).

Every time a training bond or a self sponsored type rating is brought to light we look bad.

Every time someone accepts a flying job making peanuts it makes us all look bad.

The list is long, and it is not all a new thing, it was just a lot easier to hide back in the old days. Once the airplanes started being called "the bus" it didn't help at all.

I would like to see some decorum, dignity and respect regained by the "profession'.

Sadly being a professional pilot is the last thing I want my children to grow up to be.

Piloting or prostitution? ;)

DA50Driver, are there any particular Europeans that you think are unkempt and unshaven, or just every single one of us? I wouldn't want you to have to generalise if you didn't have to.

Zoso
 

It has been going around for some time the UNPROFESSIONAL Look/Action, lack of respect. I will fly for peanuts types,. The money trail has followed, the behavior pattern.

Sometimes I am tired of my duty plan - again no free weekend with the boy this month. Sometimes I am tired of management telling us again - the company is in danger because of the regular crisis of the year. Often I am tired of security touching me.

But every time for 26 years now I am proud to put on my uniform, to unlock the power of thousands of horses on the take off run, find a way through storm and snow and bring our passangers safely to their destination.

Civilian Pilots who call themselves 'drivers' - very bad form old boy !

DA50, have you seen the cost of an 8 pack of Gilette blades? with what salaries are generating in many carriers, razor blades are a luxury item. :hmm:


maxrpm, when crisis become regular for a company, its indicative of pi$$-poor management. :hmm:

Every time I pack my tea bags for work - I feel proud

Every time I stop at Boots to buy my in flight sarnies - I feel proud

Every time I let security frisk me and go through my bag - I feel proud

Every time I finish work deafened by the noise my company won't ptotect me from on cost grounds - I feel proud (so proud I bought my own noise cancelling headset which I'm not allowed to use)

Profession? No. Now a part time job for rich kids, who don't seem to mind paying more up-front for the type rating than tey'll earn in their first year!

Roll on retirement.

Calling passengers 'self loading freight' on a public forum doesn't help much either.
These are the people who pay the salaries! and a lot won't appreciate the joke.

Counting the time
 

Dear Colleagues, shaved, unshaved and all in between.....

It is not funny anymore to call us "Aviators", we became rather "Obstacles" in the calculation: We earn too much and do too less. Why the heck do those guy´s get so much paid for nothing? they sit there for hours and the "Autopilot" is flying. Not only in public opinion also the company employees have that in mind when they asked about the tasks of Pilots.

I agree that flying became too cheap in both ways: Acountants are running a Airline today and have a vocabulary that is disgusting. Managers having previous expirience at Fast Food Chains and try to implemente that mentality into the Catering and inflight service.

The support and planning personnel knows flying from the virtual world and not from actual expirience and there decissions are based on synthetic values how they make your monthly roster.

The devaluation of the currency is your problem and the payrise is less then the local currency is traded against the leading currencies.

We can complain as much as we like but: The smell of JetA in the morning when the "Drogon in the back" is growling in a guttural fashion, or when you fly north of the 72nd in June and is dusk and dawn at the same time, when you brought your ship safe back thru all odds to the ground and landed on the spot then we are proud of what we do and we have forgotten all odds until we get the next: Call from Dispatch, contact with the HM-BAA Security check, note from the Management that we are in the red and we need to save more money to increase the shareholder value..... that is the moment I am calculating my remaining time as per today: 6 years, 5 months and 12 days, then I am done and put the hat on the hook, as a professional Pilot. My Poston Engine Rating will be renewed after that and when it is severe CAVOK then I see myself sneaking into a Airfiled again, just for fun then.....

I have meet so many people in Aviation who where great characters, who either helped me in the beginning to become what I am today. I meet nice and interesting Individuals as who travelled with me on a flight and we spoke about interesting subjects, they sometime enriched my horizon. I could make people happy when we had them in the Flight Deck for a visit and some of them made the dream come thru.

Today? We are the obstacle at the security checkpoint and not seen at the last line of defense in some cases, we are not the ones who want to kill everybody in and with the Metal we are moving, we want the people save meet theire relatives on the other end, (Destination) have a enjoyable journey and remember that time they had.

We are seen as the Cost incentive factor and not as the save the day person when we work into discrection and extend the duty time to the max. to ensure 24/7 that the ball is rolling and the clock keeps ticking. A old saying is: Try an accident and then make the math.... SAFETY is a priority but the factor is unknown in the calculation.

So now I am off to the Office and see what comes next, I hope it is not another slam in the face. We have two cheeks, if we get hit on the right we can offer the left... Is that not where we are going in some cases the last decade??

Unshaven
 

It is not every European, as I am one and I do shave. I even run a brush through my hair from time to time.

Beemer. if the plane is called a bus then it certainly needs a driver. If it was more like a limousine then I would have used DA50Chauffeur.

I am afraid you are all correct!!!It makes me very angry,when Headmasters of State Schools seem to have salaries over £150,000,and even Tube Drivers have salaries over £60,000,with gold plated pensions to go with it,and generally Civil Servants under the Blair/Brown regime simply ran over the rest of us,who had their Pensions eroded,or changed to Money Purchase,and Salaries with no increments or 1-2% because the Airlines were in hard times.If we went on strike,or even complained the P45 and the door was the only response from management,or a quick sim check and a black on your 206.The current ATPL First Officer has or his parents have,paid the best part of £60,000 for an equivalent Degree Course,to be paid in washers,and some nearly have to work for free!!This is one of the few professions where you are Line Checked and Sim checked every 6 months,with the job on the line,because you are told there are masses who want your job,so you had better be good,and then medically checked to make sure you have not cracked up!!!!!!:I used to have a 10 days on with maybe 5 off roster,living in ever decreasing standards of Hotel,trying to sleep during the day in parts of the world with high humidity,and temperatures with loud wurlitzers that may or may not work properly.Then after a full work period to fly or position back to UK and then drive home in a state of exhaustion,to have to do it all over again in a few days time.It used to be the best job in the world,but now I just wonder and thank God my Kids are not interested.Even if you survive to retirement,and many of my friends and colleagues have not even made my age,then the Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome can hit you,because you have been away so much and the Kids have run riot!!The Mortgage has to be paid and life has to go on,but is Aviation now worth it??

I live in a part of the world where being a pilot is still a career, where only crappy companies and smaller charter and cargo operators accept self sponsoring. We have a crazy idea that pilots are the last line of defense and in my home base I am not even frisked :eek:

We work as hard as pilots everywhere but we insist on a yearly increase of 6% and we respect our profession enough to demand that no pilot -not even deadheads and positioning- should ever go on board with some stubble.

We are leaders and insist that even the most junior first officer should act in that manner, we know our manuals, maintenance manuals, loading manuals and cabin crew manuals so that we can maintain our position as pilots, and not as "backups to the autopilot"

We stand up to management everyday on issues that seem trivial to our counterparts up north, but we refuse to allow our erosion of rights to start.

I am not patronizing anyone, sincerely, I wish you have it as sweet as us :( , I am just answering the question, I might lose the passion one day but if we can maintain our standards, I might be in here for the long haul.

Arkroyal,

Re your second point, can't remember where you are based, but if it's STN you should really consider upgrading your self-catering to Pret a Manger.

You are worth it ! !

I wouldn't fly for a high salary. I would fly a living. Alas, I will never raise the funds to support getting some stripes, not in this day and age anyway.

I suppose I will stick to being your friendly dispatcher! Can't complain really, its one of the next best thing which I really do enjoy, I'm proud to be doing what I do. :ok:

That Kazzie is the PROBLEM......... The profession demands a high salary! And you people are an accountants dream that undermines the whole profession:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Unfortunately times change though. I'm willing to bet every penny I have (which is not many :E) that everyone out there flying today is not doing it "for the money". Sure its an added bonus, but it's just not there anymore.

Airlines going bust, redundancies.. In today's world, you have to pay yourself to do the job and take a low wage for the honor of sitting up front. It may be destroying the Pilot image for "back in the day" But times change, And I agree it is unfortunate. However people will still do what it takes for that honor, and will spend there life paying it off. It's sad really.

It's threads like these that almost make me feel guilty when say I actually enjoy what I do.

no , not for a while now !

I'm doing it for the money.

B@lls. Plenty of money to be had - especially outside the UK:ugh: I DO NOT pay myself to fly. I haven't done so for over 20 years and I WILL NOT for the next 20. Neither have I payed for a type-rating, nor will I ever pay for one. A bond is a different thing altogether.... But I've not spent a penny on a TR!!!!!!

You are prostituting this profession. Period:mad:

I fly because I love flying. But I won't pay for it a la ryanair or p2f (note the lack of capitals there - scumbag outfits).

Such a nice forum! :rolleyes:

Bottom line is, If you love flying you will do whatever it takes to get there. Whatever route you take to get there. It doesn't make you less of a professional.

As you said yourself, you Love flying because you love flying. Well so do they, No matter who they fly for or what they take home in a pay packet, they still hold the same responsibilities and pride as you do.

Kazzie,

Pay is nothing to do with honour, it's to do with responsibility and accountability.

If it's honour you want, best learn duelling and meet your adversaries at dawn.

The salraies payed to pilots nowadays are digusting ...................they are far, far too high. I'd willingly sell my house and all it's contents to fly for an airline :D

Pay is nothing to do with responsibility and accountability,it's pure supply and demand,there are far too many people wishing to do what you do for less money...Isn't this the world you've all wanted to live in? Ultimate freedom and democracy,there's no reason to complain now,everybody gets what they deserve.

Anyone interested in the Profession anymore?
 

Prior to 1985 (a la Lorenzo) I'dve said you'd be crazy not
to be interested. But 26 years later its a mug's game and
merely a means to an end to provide a reasonable income.

I've already talked a few good and highly intelligent lads
(5 I recall now) out of wanting to make an airline career
their prime source of income, and they've gone on to far
more lucrative vocations where they're treated as human
beings, not as mere dog!!!! to be ruthlessly trodden on
and scraped off a stinking beancounter's jackboot.

That's not to say I discourage aerobatics or sport flying as
a hobby - oh no no no. Just not to make pilotage a prime
source of income.

Hey gimme a break - who isn't selling their services to the
highest pay on offer these days anyway? We've all had to
become damn whores to get on in this bloody racket, even
the kids (as well as you WK there in EK-land, even though
you'd never admit it).

And if one isn't a whore yet, then one is simply getting
screwed on the cheap.

You'll also need hock your soul and your entire self-respect.

I personally love the job and despite having been burnt a few times during recessions still look forward to going to work and doing my job. I am firmly in the corner of work to live but I cannot think of anything I would rather do.
I am deeply saddened by the ever deteriorating T and C's as it only undermines our responsibility and the reality of exactly what we do and the lives depending on us. I will also NOT be encouraging my children to follow in my footsteps but I can only hope they find a career that they love as much as I love flying.
Anyone who says or thinks we are paid too much needs a reality check I think. For the last 2 years I have been away from my family more than should ever be expected and combined with appalling rosters, or lack there of, has meant that I have worked for a pittance in relation to the duty time I have put in. I also love the fact that people book a holiday and just expect to get there. There is no reality check of what it takes to get them to their destination.
As I said at the beginning I am a lifer in this industry, for my sins, but I won't be recommending it to anyone!

Profession???
 

What profession are you talking about?
I mainly see self serving cheap imbecils left to do this job and the exceptions are kept down by the vast predominance of that kind. Fact is that nowaday it is understood by airlines that any imbecil can fly.
Look at at EK... remotely controlled pilots! It is not a surprise that local Duabi newpaper refer at pilots as labor. That ii what an overwhelming majority are labor and ..becoming cheaper and cheaper.
As per the one that love flying...you may like your job but you don't tell your employer...fokker !!

An apt comparison with the 1970s and today. Flying is no longer glamourous, exciting but a bloody nightmare for everyone, where SLF fighting is now half expected.

I still struggle with how much the profession has slid even in the last ten years. What particularly concerns me is how there has been a huge increase in demand for pilots, but the t&c s have gone backwards at an unbelievable rate, so does that mean that the supply of labour has increased that much more than demand?

I would not be surprised as comparing an average BEA cadet to an average RYR cadet could be considered like chalk & cheese - just compare the selection processes. In some ways, the profession may get even worse as those on excellent legacy deals retire, and new labour is all on flexi-screw.

On a positive note, there is still something magical about it!

Always said the test of any profession is whether you'd recommend your children to enter it. I certainly would not and, in fact, would actively warn them against it.

I see the convergence of many factors occurring and whilst I still enjoy flying and have had an amazing career through the halcyon days of airline flying I am glad that I will be retiring soon and feel much pity for the newbies who are coming along.

Has anybody considered that the problem is nothing to do with peoples attitudes, and all to do with supply and demand.

Flying has become so easy in the civilian world where it is all automated that just about anybody can do it if they can scrape up the cash, thus loads of people become qualified and the airlines can pay the market rate which is bugger all because new pilots are after the envisaged glamour.

When it was tricky, there were less who could do it, so the airlines had to pay to get you.

Simple supply and demand.

It is of course a false economy, because it is only easy till the automation fails, and then you wish you had good pilots again, rather than pilots who have rarely ever flown hands on since a cessna.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame it all on cadets.

So why not put your money where your mouth is, and do it? You could show everyone just how easy it is and prove your point. ;)

Who has blamed it on cadets?

It is all down to the fact that pilots used to be paid and respected because they could do something difficult.

Now it isn't day to day, so even though the public thinks of it as glamerous and impressive, anyone can do it, and unfortunately does.

We are mostly Professionals, but we no longer belong to anything like a Profession.

Everyone now expects to fly half way round the world for a tenner. This is thanks to the rise in Low Cost airlines. This also means however that there are more people flying so more aircraft and more jobs. Yes the jobs pay less but that is due to the fact that the public expect to pay less for the flight than they do for the airport parking, duty free etc.

Its good to cry out for tougher selection criteria once your in a nice job. Everyone needed a break to get into this industry.:=

Like it or not aircraft have become more automated and more reliable, this means the chances of the pilots having to save the day in an emergency with their skillful flying are now very rare (Thank god). Many of the passengers know exactly what the pilot is doing as they do it on their flight sims at home. There is no mystery about it anymore.

12 months can see you fully qualified to gain employment as a pilot, you could then spend most of your day monitoring the FMS, autopilot etc. Yes, there are many negatives and T&C's are declining but this is happening in all industries. (How long do nurses train and how much do they get). Many people I see on here have never done any other job. Go to any industry forum and you will see the same kind of debates about declining T&C's etc.

Im am afraid to say if you long for the days when people admired the pilots as they walked through the terminal and every little boy wanted to be one then you are going to be dissapointed. Those days are gone and never coming back. It doesn't boother me at all when people refer to the role as 'glorified bus driver'. It is actually quite true its just many people don't like to admit it.

Until its simulator time (or a real emergency) and the low
experience of the RHS cadets shows through and through.

To get by this, official CRM was invented (IMO) around the
same time to ensure the experienced captain would then
adequately breastfeed the inexperienced cadet. It happens
every time in the sim and once in a real life event.

I'm not a bloody nursemaid - if you can't at least get the
thing on the ground, engine out, safely in IMC on your own,
then you have NO right whatsoever occupying the SIC seat
of my cockpit. Of course the airline pimps (mainly CEOs and
beancounters and the odd corrupt CP) think otherwise.

CRM occured, and still occurs naturally between professionals
before the advent of kids in the RHS, as demonstrated in
Sioux City years ago.

And once upon a time a pilot was never accepted into the
RHS of anything in the majors, unless he had enough
experience and survival skills that taught him whats really
important, what is minutiae, what will kill him and what
won't.

The dependency of latter day crew on FMCs and computers
is disgusting, if not downright dangerous and obscene. And
I have yet to hear or read of an emergency anywhere that
it was AUTOMATION that saved the lives of all on board. If
that day ever happens I'll eat my words, hang up my spurs
and start doing Forex and commodities full time.

In the meantime I'll continue being a harlot and sell my
services to the highest payer around at the time...

while avoiding anal rape.

Well, I guess I have à question about the beard and moustache myth.

Having heard this many times, the oxygen will burn your facial hair and the oxygen mask not properly sealing?

I find this all hard to believe, having seen many pictures of fighter pilots having big moustaches (Robin Olds comes to mind amongst other). if the sealing myth really had any thruth to it, wouldn't the aviation authorities have long ago forbidden beards?

The UK AR5 'Whistling Handbag' (the noise made by the fan in the seperate housing which held three gas mask cannisters and was worn, rather daintily over the shoulder in the manner of a man bag!) covered the entire head in a rubber bag (parents look away in horror!) thus negating any folicle challenge to either the British 'Stiff Upper Lip' or the Royal Naval 'Full Set'.

Airline flying isn't flying, its driving a bus for the comfort of the passengers and hoping nothing goes wrong. The best day at work is when nothing happens and the aircraft monitors your flying on the managers behalf. Break a limit and the printer rebukes you before the 20/20 hindsight of the junior manager tells you what you should have done, what the SOP says you should have done and what the corrective action should have been whilst being 1000+ miles away from what happened and not having a clue about the extenuating circumstances and the environment on the day.

Flying is operating an aircraft for the purposes of achieving an aim whilst using the aircraft as a tool to achieve that aim utilising the entire flight envelope and, occasionally, a bit more. It's fun, exciting, exhilarating, thought provoking and not a little dangerous. Airline flying is none of that except when the brown stuff really hits the fan and we really start to earn our wage. Then and only in those rare situations does the 'professional pilots' profession really come to the fore.

In those circumstances then I would still consider myself a professional pilot. Some of the drones, who I have come across, who 'graduate' from the 'zero to hero' flight sausage machines need a long, long time to get to that point but, hey, they are the Captains of the future so give 'em time.

Could I have flown Airliners since my early 20's? Possibly, would I want to? After having flown a wide variety of other types/aircraft? Not a hope. If you want real flying, look outside of the airlines and go have some fun.