Sometimes I find it hard to get motivated and enthusiastic about this profession, but in these economic times I don't think that any profession is having a particularly easy time of it. I think a lot of people are having to look further afield, and to accept a lower salary than they had before just to keep going. It's hard enough getting on in your own field of experience, much less trying to change careers at present. It's !!!!, but pilots aren't the only ones.

Slasher.... 100% correct:ok: Good post:cool:

And yes - EK pay more for my services than others, but I chose to live in Dubai anyway. Had enough of the high tax rip-off I was subjected to back in the UK!!!!!! Nor will I leave EK if another airline offers me more 'cos I like it here...

I agree with your sentiments but all three of those examples are bad. All of those professions require a period of low/no pay in the form of internship; lawyer and architect or on job training such as a PGCE in the case of a teacher.

Reality is everyone has to start somewhere but companies are taking advantage of this and it is no longer a career with a structure because if you pay you can skip a step. Those in the self improved route, instructing and air taxi jobs and then turbo props knew it was worth the short term pain because eventually you would end up on a jet and earn some money or were happy with the trade off of, lifestyle. Now you don't need to do any of that and bottom rung money is also on the jets, and the lifestyle has gone from regional work as well. There is no pay progression because of this or lifestyle progression because nobody demands it, we are all just happy to have a flying job, or are on old contracts and are all right jack. MPL making it cheaper to train will only make it worse, devaluing the qualification, / experience required not that it was much anyway.

Doctors, Lawyers and architects have to go through years of low pay and gain experience before the big money contracts come along. Unfortunately they also have people willing to pay to get the best internships in the best companies as well. But importantly they negotiate their own pay, and rely on proving their worth and not on collective bargaining negotiated by someone who may not have any personal investment in the outcome to ones pay deal. Collective bargaining is where teachers are similar to us. Now find me a teacher happy with their terms and conditions. May be we should start agreeing to performance related pay based on how efficient we are, bonuses for dealing with malfunctions and incidents, service recovery to passengers etc, how much fuel we save based on conditions agreed with a crew council. Red ringed pay for previous ratings or experience related pay based on more than just flying hours. If you've had several engine failures that you have dealt with successfully you get paid more than someone who hasn't. I'm playing devils advocate here but I think we need to get creative with the way we are paid and play the bean counters at their own game conditonsl pay rather than ask for the standard 5% pay rise.

I don't know what the answer is but being difficult to the new guys is not it. It has to come from the experienced pilots with an input to training and recruitment policy who have nothing to benefit from negotiating new contracts for new joiners but the knowledge they have looked out for and gone some way to securing a career for those younger and less experienced than them as others many years ago did for them.
I am thinking out loud if you disagree I welcome your thoughts.

Agree, bad examples. When people go to see a lawyer they expect to pay a lot of money, same with taking on an architect or seeing a doctor (even if it is in the form of tax paid to the NHS). When people buy an airline ticket they expect to pay as little as possible hopefuly a tenner.

Also the training for these occupations is around 7 years. A CPL/IR can be done in under 12 months.

Training for a CPL/IR may possibly take 12 months, but an ATPL can't be completed in a year, and surely, you can only really be considered as having "fully arrived" when you become a commander which takes even more time.

Perhaps it would be fairer to say that in all walks of life the experience is gained with time in the job irrespective of Doctors, Lawyers, Pilots initial time to training.

The difference is that as you become Doctor, Surgeon, Consultant or Lawyer, Barrister, Judge your pay increses in line with your experience.

Sadly, with a variety of factors pressing down on our profession, the renumeration of pilots has changed little over the past 40 years. Ask anyone what a BOAC Captain earned in the 1950's it was £100,000. That bought alot back then, the 70s', 80s', 90s' etc it has remained the same whilst inflation has rapidly overtaken the purchasing power.

Welcome to the diminishing world of aviation.

in the US for sure Slasher but here in Europe the likes of BA/Air France/Lufty/KLM/SAS have been taking 150 hour cadets since the 1960's.

And nota bene that these cadets were mainly taught by ex WWII Air Force pilots who, in some cases, were seeing active duty at the grand old age of 18 and commanding squadrons by 21.

John R,

I fully understand your analogy. Unfortunately whilst the previous occupations mentioned have managed to retain their positions within the wage structure, by increasing net wages inline or above the rate of inflation, Pilots, be they Captains or First Officers (In my Airline the First Officer has to be qualified to exactly the same level as the Captain, they just haven't done the Captains Course), have been under constant pressure in a volatile environment where cost is king and the passenger flies, in general, with the carrier with the lowest ticket price.

Public Opinion is that the aircraft fly and land themselves and we are just there watching the dials/screens. In many respects we have become the victims of our own success in making our job look easy which, when done well irrespective of failures, ATC, Weather and other factors, does contain no little sense of professional pride.

Malfunction handling is like a Swan, serene on the surface portraying calm, paddling like buggery underneath to keep ahead of the current!!

:ok:

And that hits the nail bang on the head. If an aeroplane smoked in every week we'd still be the steely eyes heroes! However, we are so professional in our work that our profession looks ordinary. I've seen first hand how various departments work at a certain airline and they are basically a rabble compared to our flight deck crews. Embarrassing actually:{:{:{

Beards and O2
 

Perhaps we should all be scanned for stubble before flying as well then! Presumably that would be before the compulsory alcohol breath testing as one might choose an extra splash of Old Spice if found lacking at the first hurdle...:rolleyes:

I used to love flying, then I got an airline job and everything changed for the worse.

I guess I'd better find another job anyway as I choose not to shave due sensitive skin. Now I know why some former colleagues always frowned at me, it all makes sense. :ugh:

S.

Well, thanks for all the comments ! I'll stick to aerial work :p

Is working for an airline that bad?

I have always idolized pilots and plan to become one when I'm older. I plan to follow in my grandfather's and my uncle's footsteps and become an 'aviator'. I avidly follow aviation websites/articles, spend more than 4 hours a week on the flight sim (mum hates that :E) and am even choosing my school subjects to help me in the piloting world.

I plan to go through the cadet process to kick-start my piloting career. Mainly because it gives me job security and helps me to gain SIC of an airliner soon. I am also considering getting my Aviation Degree and then bush flying in order to get raw flying skills. It may be for peanuts but I believe it will give me more skills then doing the cadetship.

I don't really care about the money as much, as long as it covers my needs and the occasional splurge. The first time I flew an aircraft I loved it, that sense of taking to the air, being buffeted by a crosswind on landing and all the other experiences. I know kids that have the potential to be brilliant mathematicians or businessmen/women but prefer to be tradies as they love building and creating things. I think its the same in piloting, potential pilots do it because they love flying (well, the kids I know). I only have one life and I plan to enjoy it by doing the thing I love. At my school and in my circle of friends, they still hold pilots in high regard, thinking of them as smart, skilled professionals that do a great job. Much the same as my view.

I believe EK wants 700 pilots this year, with other airlines much the same. I would have thought that the pay-rate would be pretty high. Especially considering a Qantas pilot just bought a house in Melbourne's leafiest suburb for 2.5million. Judging from some articles/threads I have read, I believe working as a pilot in UK/USA is pretty poor, is it the same in Aus/Asia?

If flying for an airline is as bad as some people say, should I try corporate?

Any feedback or comments about my views/potential routes to flying/questions would be greatly appreciated.

If piloting is not for me then I guess I'll have to fall back on my reserve career: go across to the US and join the Marines :p

you make more money by not flying than flying these days.
staying unemployed at home is the future. you don't have to pay for fuel, car, t/r, line training, uniform,...you dont pay for interview, and you don't have to maintain your license current.

you stay relax at home, watch movies, drink beers, and the gov send your money directly on your bank account.

welcome in the new world of the winners!:{

losers want become pilot because they don't know to do anything else of their pitying life.

I recall someone somewhere saying "What other job gives
you a multi-million dollar aeroplane, fills it full of free booze
and gorgeous single women, then sends you off out of town
in it?"

[/humor]

I love being an airline pilot. I enjoy my job and find it rewarding, I get loads of time off at home with my family and earn enough money.

Anyone thinking they have it bad should try working in an office 9-5 for a few years.

Times have definately changed
 

Hi guys. Just been reading some of the comments.

I agree with alot of the comments. I remember when I started to pursue a career in aviation, the crew where on brilliant contracts, never needed to be type rated, had great pay scales and being a commercial pilot had a status above most.

By the time I qualified, had rung up a mortgage (for training etc) all these T and C's had gone. To get anywhere you needed to pay for a type rating or at least be bonded for 5 years. Again as time went by if you went and paid for a type rating with no job, the airlines wanted you to have at least 500 hours on type so just another obstacle to try get over.
If you did eventually get a job, it was only for the reason that you were going to be flying for peanuts and you paying for the rating/line training but hey you didnt mind because you needed the experience.

I think as the airlines caught onto this idea, it totally screwed up the whole profession. Everyone needed a type rating to which you had to pay for it and from there everything went down hill.
Dont get me wrong, if you have time on type and want to go live in Asia, (and not married of course) then there are good contracts to be had.

Like someone mentioned earlier in the post that they do it because they love flying and not for the money.....there is no money in it anymore.

As for the flying, when I started flying on the King Air and the Chieftain, it was probably some of the best flying I have ever done. Single Pilot wasnt great but what a way to gain command experience and good decision making when it all boils down to one person.......you.

Once on the jets, the flying became boring, 1000ft A/P came in and then sat back for 7 hours to disconnect the A/P to land. The destinations and stop overs became better as you were now flying further.

Times have changed but if you want money, forget about flying and become a plumber or Sparkie. I really wish flying had the status it used to have. Dont think it will change any time soon as most young guys want to be a Maverick so therefore pursue their dreams and so the circle of life of pilots continue.

I suppose as long as you can survive and pay your bills then go for it. We all love being in the air and at the end of the day that is the reason why birds sing!!

Happy Flying:ok:

Who you workin' for? http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0083.gif

You might be with one of the last bastion of decent airlines remaining,
but don't get too comfortable and expect the holiday to last forever...

I have been a Professional Pilot since I was 18. Three years ago, when I was 45 I lost my medical at the height of my career.Despite all the sacrifices, for me there is simply nothing like flying for a living.


At that time I was employed as a Captain flying 757 and 767 Aircraft all over the world, to say I was happy would be a vast understatement.


I hope I will get my medical back this year, flying was and is my life and I have been lost without it.

Wow, Enjoytheview. Wow..

A few have stuck to the basic question. My answer too, for what it is worth (40 odd years in the Industry & 22500 hrs) is NO. For simple economic reasons. You will not get the return on your investment however the latter is achieved. But, then we go down the romantic route. This career will always attract those who simply love flying. The same deal if you just fancy being a Racing Driver, Top Sportsperson, Actor etc. It IS the buzz.

But, we have done it to ourselves. Status fell away behind Lawyers, Doctors and other professions because we, as pilots, allowed others to take control. Beancounters; Very odd Management pilots (usually from military backgrounds who thought there was still a war on); CRM lectures to pilots by failed Cabin Attendents; Long hours, shorter rests; Aircraft designed by Engineers where little, if any, piloting skills are required. Oh, lets not forget Union Control , either ! Blimey, list goes on & on.

I too have crossed Oceans and enjoyed the view. Endless views of Ice bergs, the snowey wastes of Canada, the deserts.......ohmigosh, several breathtaking views of Everest.........yeah, brilliant and all worth the effort.But, & here is the rub, I didn't pay for it. Fully Sponsored Cadet with everything provided (down to a pencil & eraser). Never payed for a type rating in my life & turned down SIA B747 because they wanted a Training Bond & a Bank Guarantee ! Get outa here ! You guys pay me ! I do this for MONEY ! I am, after all, a COMMERCIAL pilot.

A few years left and like others have said before, my last few years are the unhappiest. I was even called into the Office the other days to explain why I was persisting in rounding up the fuel requirement to the nearest 100KGS (yes, ex Cranwell, Hercs....no brains).

NO, if someone else is paying all the fees right up to full blown, RHS, decent airline, decent jet.....GO FOR IT. Otherwise, do something else and get that buzz from your local flying club.

Ok, yet another, minrest Jakarta coming up. Better watch my fuel load is right down to the flightplanned KG. Awful third-world uniform (get my own shirts made up in Thailand),crap hotel (who cares as it is minrest anyway), awful crews who you really would not want to dine with anyway and geees, if anything remotely challenging comes up, it is Command by discussion (CRM gay Cabin Attendent told me so ).

It really is quite ghastly & NOTHING like what I signed up to us a dreamy Cadet. I did experience the best of it though but, dear readers, would NOT recommend the current Airline Piloting world to anyone.

Yep, I'm with slowjet on this one too.

The following post from a forum on another website sums it all up for me ....

Sad, but true.

I wish now I'd done law or medicine .......

:ugh:

Slowjet - interesting post, but you spoil it with the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph. If you truly feel that you cannot learn anything from someone because they are from some group that you don't approve of, then I would suggest that you've been in the wrong job your whole career. Listening to people that you perceive to be below you either in rank or social position, is a skill I suspect that one or two of the military guys that you dislike, could teach you a thing or two about.
This may not be the airline world that you joined and you may be resistant to change generally, but things move on. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not. Engineering away the requirement for pilot skills is surely a good thing generally? Ships no longer require a crew of hundreds to man the rigging and likewise aircraft have moved on. Personally I see that as a positive development in safety and efficiency.
I'm sorry if you feel so bitter about your career. A wasted career is a very sad thing. Personally I love flying and I will never do anything else - its un-complicated, largely bad-stress free and still well rewarded in the large part. I suspect if you had tried your hand at something other than flying in your career, you might have found out just how blessed you are.

amsm01: It's up to the man himself to decide how he feels about his life. Unless I'm reading your reaction wrong.

Worst flights..?
 

Whilst people love staring at the clouds and experience other delights while flying, my worst flighst are the repatriation flights. Have you ever heard your passengers scream through the cockpit door ? Have you ever experienced passengers being forcibly dragged up the boarding stairs - I have and didn't like it, I definetly wondered what I was doing here. These flights should be done by the military. I watched all this on TV again - even Jet2, who undertake these flights, had their logos 'blurred' when shown on TV and I did not appreciate the cabin crew smiling when they closed the doors

I think the Aldente's post sums up lo cost flying pretty well which I did for a couple of years. Is it worth paying 100k+ to do that for 30yrs? No.
I'm very lucky to finally have a great flying job on a modern long haul jet with a 'major', with excellent terms and conditions. Had some amazing trips staying in luxurious hotels around the world, flying a delightful aircraft, eating 1st class food, spending more time in bunks than an average lo co sector, being proud of the service we're delivering, flying with the best, both in the FD and cabin, seeing the world as I always wanted to.. Is it worth paying 100k for what I'm doing? Yes. Unfortunately, looking around there aren't many flying jobs like this anymore. Having felt a bit like some of the other posts here for the last 8 years the contrast is amazing.

Having said that, CTC cadets, who have been so much maligned on here for paying for their own TRs etc, are now joining majors with 500hrs straight from EZY after 1yr. Who's got the last laugh? Them probably as they are now on 60k a year and joining a major whilst under 25.

Al Murdoch, thanks for the editorial and personality assessment. Polax and others appear more succint and answer the thread question. I thought I did too with a bit of illustration.I will try to be a bit more articulate and less illustrative from my own unworthy bank of experience. Great to note the CTC chaps slotted right in and as a result, no doubt, would thoroughly recommend the career. In my 40 year span, the career has changed beyond recognition and will attract a different kind of pilot applicant. I am observing 40 years of deterioration. You strike me as being, possibly, a little newer and unable to see the deterioration that I and others are writing about. Particularly, the level of investment required will not recoup the financial or other rewards expected. It was a simple question, most of us have answered, with regret.

slowjet
 

Great posts, all well observed.......

T'was a great once upon a time, and I only spent my own cash ( <10k STG) moving from military to civvy.

Well I've only seen 35 years but to me the really staggering thing is that the rate of deterioration seems to have increased rapidly in the last decade or so.

In all honesty I still get satisfaction from it sometimes , and I'm well rewarded, but is it worth a youngster gambling 100k plus on the chance of getting the same satisfaction and financial rewards in 35 years? I'd certainly caution very strongly against placing the bet.

It would be interesting to see how long the happy people in this thread have been in the industry and how long they have been flying and likewise for the ones who arent so happy.

I would guess that the happy ones are new and the not so happy ones have seen better times.

Or the happy folk are working for 'proper' airline where they feel valued, are well paid and arent being worked into an early grave (one way or another).

For me; I wouldnt encourage my kids into a flying career. Mainly because I see no future in it in the long term and I see no end to the screwing down of terms and conditions.

The person who posted earlier saying that 'try spending 9 - 5 in an office', well I think you will find many of us have, and from where I am sitting right now it doesnt look half bad! Regular hours, home every night, good money etc etc.

I have worked in aviation for almost 20 years and have been flying for 30, I love flying, I dont love flying for an airline. I think pilots have been de-valued for several reasons but mainly because unlike any other job I know people are prepared to pay to go to work.

Looking, as I am right now, forward to my deep night flight to the Eastern Med (and back), which has followed two earlies (outta bed at 3am) and knowing I'll be on the same rotation for 2 of the next 3 weekends, I can only say that SLOWJET has it completely right. I had a few good years, before the dead hand of accountants, security, terrorists, airline management and our good selves allowed this job to go down the pan to the extent where even the general public start to have sympathy with us!
There is still a career to be had here for anyone who has low expectations of life. If you are lucky you will end up in the top 10% of PAYE jobs and you will get more time off than many. But the lack of job satisfaction and constantly being dicked around by your employer will eventually sap your soul, I fell so sorry for the 20 year old cadets I see around, will they be able to do this job for 50 years and stay sane?
I have two teenage children, who already see that airline flying is a deadend career for most and if you want fun, make some serious money, have friends that you can see at the weekend and buy yourself a Pitts Special.

Re. the 9-5 debate, rather depends who you work for. Working for flybe or somesuch for crap money, I'd rather be in the office and have my weekends off,thanks.
Re. Cabin Crew - the gay comment was not politically correct, but reflects a stereotype senior cabin crew member who has been told by senior cabin crew management that they are integral to the airplane not falling from the sky, and has believed it. We have all met the type of both sexes and they are not an improvement to Flight Safety or CRM.

d105: Quite so. It was simply a reaction to what is clearly heartfelt post and I wish him further satisfaction.

17 years in. Airline job pays the bills. Stuck on the belt now. Every year a new reason to cut the T&C's. It's a slow death.

Have to agree with much of what is being said. I got into flying as a second career in my 30's way back when. I used to be an engineer and the job I used to do entailed more time on aircraft and more open ended time away than I ever do now.

On the minus side, I have had two redundancies and been on the wrong end of the seniority list as a result most of the time. That can happen in any profession but aviation makes it a double whammy as you have to start all over again every time. Hence I am a greying, doddering 3 striper whilst most of my contemporaries sit on the other side of the flightdeck.

On the plus side, I had the good fortune to be employed by a decent operator despite being the wrong side of 50 and now fly freight for a living. I enjoy it because I fly about half the hours that I used to do in pax flying and it's a mix of long and short haul which keeps the interest up. I even have half a chance of getting into the other seat before I am carried off in a pine box. So lots of ups and downs but providing you stay reasonably positive and have the good fortune to keep passing your medicals, things kind of even out.

Do I still enjoy it? Yes overall. I still look up when an aircraft goes overhead and I still stand on top of the steps and watch the comings and goings for a couple of minutes when it's my walkround. Regrets? no, I always wanted to do it and despite some bad times I achieved my ambition despite being told I never would by the usual assortment of naysayers that used to exist before PTF came along. Would I start it now? probably not due to financial considerations but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to.

Advice? have a plan B. I spent over a year not flying due to the state of things in 2010 and developed other ways to make money. I still do them because you never know what is around the next corner and doing something else gives you the chance to look forward to the next trip.

I wouldn't want to be 25 again, even for the increased energy levels.:mad:

one pilot one voice
 

At some point we will all have to take a stand for our profession. Do an internet search of the name of this post and see that at Air Canada we are trying to take a stand against the errosion of our well deserved compensation and work rules. Its time for all to join the battle.

Thanks for the support chaps. ALDENTE, your quote had me on the floor. Terriffic stuff & right on. My last sim ride had me heading for Stansted, no hydraulics, No electrics (crap battery from Argos), three spoilers uplifted by airflow (can happen said my esteemed instructor.......I mean, checker) and denied the use of the control column, I did get a bit stressed & raised my voice, a little, at the brilliant SFO who WAS checking the Runway length at STN. I thought I was keeping the tone humerous when I told him (in a high pitched, squeeky and sweaty voice) not to bother because STN was used by NASA as an ERA for Shuttle crews. In the debrief , I was told not to belittle the FO ! Aaaaaaah, maybe it was Al's brother ! ( Just joking Al). And, STILTON, stay focused. If you are going for Medical review this year, the body is a great self healer. Stay away from the negative thoughts & be positive about passing. Every good wish to you Sir.

Interested in the profession? Would I do it again? sure thing!

Also when looking at friends and acquaintances in the medical, engineering and legal sector. Yes they are home every night/weekend and holiday. But when they are home they often have to finish some work, type some rapports, answer e-mails etc…. They work 2x as hard for half the salary that i receive for my flying job.

Currently flying longhaul for a EU legacy; 2 - 3 flights a month, enough free time to play around at my local aerodrome flying SEP's a lot of free time at home, excellent T&C’s enabling me to have a very decent lifestyle and a good pension at 56, study debt payed off last year.

But would I recommend it to my children?
If one could get a sponsorship or a cadetship with a legacy, then go for it. Unfortunately this is becoming very rare. reality is catching up…

A lot of people are comparing being a pilot to being an engineer, doctor etc. The thing these professions have in common is that they have a professional body that controls the qualifications required and the skills needed to do the job.

Take civil engineers for example. After the initial degree they would then embark on their professional development with the Institution of civil engineers. This would then lead to becoming chartered. The Institution takes an interest in the development of engineers from student level and the engineers take an interest in the Institution and attend regular meetings and lectures about the industry. The ICE would never allow anything like P2F in the civils industry!

The pilot profession does not have anything serious like this that would look after pilots interests. Balpa is the closest thing but is a union not a professional institution.

oboema Really ?!!! I take it you haven't ever had to pay a private consultant's medical bill or use the services of a barrister then ? ........


:ugh: