Jet2 needs BALPA? 2nd attempt!
 

Wot about the IPA?
BALPA is big in Monarch and that didn't stop their T&Cs for new guys from being chopped?

After the acrimonious debate a year ago, I took the advice and joined BALPA. I don't regret it but at the moment BALPA is completely invisible in Jet2. If you go to the BALPA website, Jet2 does not even exist, it's still Channel Express.

I'm not sure that Jet2 does collective negotiation, with crew reps, BALPA, IPA or anybody. Maybe the answer is to take any problems direct to the man who can fix them. In other words, if you don't like dual basing then complain (again if necessary) direct to NH - all 100 of you if necessary. The same could be applied to any problem.

Absolutely agree. If you don't want to speak directly your self, Crew representatives are available to do it for you.

With only one or two exceptions, that seems like a no to BALPA then. Now we know where we stand, let us all give our full support to the Crew Council. And as individuals, nag at management whenever they don't consult.

The crew council does need everyone's full support. The guys on the council are not mugs and if they feel that their time is being wasted they will be the first to suggest a change of tact and look at the other options available. Remember, these reps aren't getting anything for doing this so their incentive is purely to offer a bridge of communication between the management and to the crews on line. If you don't tell them anything .... don't moan and groan!! :ugh:

Just give the council and the management a chance ...... for now at least :ok:

Fixed Rosters
 

As many of the Jet2 Drivers may be aware there is move to implement a fixed roster patterns. It’s not known if it’s across all bases or just the major ones

If you have an opinion I would suggest now is the time to speak to your Fleet rep Base Captain or Aircrew manager. There is a thread running on the real names jet2 forum.

It sounds like a 5/4/5/3 system, it could make a big change to all our lives so get on the site and speak your mind.

BALPA appears to be doing nothing for Jet2 pilots. Jet2 doesn't even feature on the BALPA website, we are called Channel Express, how long ago was that.

Time to resign and save some hard-earned money? Please prove me wrong.

MANBLK,

BALPA cannot and will not do anything untill there is company recognition of the union. This can either be negotiated with management (good luck!), or forced by having 50%+1 membership amongst the crews (which i believe there is)

Good Luck

Maybe your CC should have a census, to ascertain just how many crew are in BALPA...

As above, if you have 50%+1, your company has to recognise BALPA.

HAVE AN OFFICIAL COUNT, THEN IF YOU MEET REQUIREMENTS INFORM YOUR MANAGEMENT, THEN THEY HAVE TO LISTEN!

Also, ring BALPA, ask them how many crew they have on their books.

What a sad sight. The blind leading the blind. :rolleyes:

No wonder the pilots at Jet2 can't get their act together and get trodden over by their management. They appear to be very inexperienced with little or no experience of ever having worked for a proper airline where the pilots are represented by a well organised company council backed up by a proper union with all the necessary expertise at hand.

Just one look at MANBLK's first post and then his recommendation that BALPA should be ignored in favour of a weak and ineffectual representatives council just shows how sad and disorganised they are. I'll hazard a guess that the reps council also represents the cabin crew and the office workers. :rolleyes:

When are these pilots going to recognise the fact that office workers and cabin crew are not going to fight for your relatively much better off gains just as you pilots won't put your own relatively much better salaries on the line for their relatively much smaller renumeration. It would make a great theatrical farce if anyone ever decided to write this story down for posterity and made a script out of it.

If you indeed have over 50% representation amongst your pilot workforce (which I doubt as so many of the Jet2 pilots are rank amateurs when it comes to industrial relations issues with their almost complete lack of real world experience) and you haven't even got a clue about the legalities of what you can and can't do with regards to organising and getting the necessary recognition from your management, then there's never going to be any hope for you. Surely at least one of you who is a BALPA member has the nounce to get in touch with your union to clarify what the next step is and what can they do to support you in those efforts.

So far, it appears that the holy trinity of the advocates of the workers representative council hold sway and are as easily led to whatever path their management want them to follow. When will some of you ever learn?

Jet2, the low pay airline and likely to stay that way for the forseeable future. :rolleyes:

Well, Mumbo Jumbo, I don't doubt that what you say is 100% correct (I certainly wouldn't dare to argue with you), but it is just possible that the reason that we are so hopeless at organising ourselves into battle is that, as individuals, we are too nice. I certainly can't think of anyone I work with at Jet2 who would post with such a keen display of arrogance.

On a different theme, I 've had it with dual basing. Can it really be legal? Does the CAA know what's going on?

MANBLK I'm sorry to say that it doesn't pay in aviation to be too nice! A career in the Ministry would be more appropriate!

I once accepted a Gentlemans agreement from a Flight Ops Manager.
You guessed it! He reneged on the agreement and it lost me the best part of £60k.

Be warned!

Binder

MANBLK

The CAA agreed to it on the understanding that the use of the alternate base would be infrequent Now it is obvious that it is being used to get around FTLs, and i believe the men from the ministry are circleing with sharpened pencils!

After flying with people who I thought I'd never hear complain about the airline admitting that it's now time for Jet2 to be unionised / BALPA affiliated, I recon it's time for serious debate again. As we all know, no-one likes to say what they really think on the crew website as 'Big Brother is watching'.

The biggest points that I can see from listening to growing complaints, mostly in the last 6 months are:

• Clear and definitive T & C's
• More stable rosters (not necessarily fixed days or less hours) just stable, so we can organise our personal lives better!
• A better working relationship between management and 'bus drivers'. (The personal, small and friendly airline that I remeber seems to be erroding very quickly, especially as they are filling Leeds new offices up with more and and more bean counters and 'middle management'.
• A feeling of being appreciated by the company for the extra hrs and other little things that we don't mind doing all for 'the greater good of the airline'. The recent charge for baggage on staff travel is a classic example.
• I still don't think the dual basing issue has been resolved yet?

These are just a few points (in my humble opinion) and I'm sure you will all have a hell of a lot more. I will probably think of a lot more after I've posted this!

I would like to point out two things before any abuse is hurled back:

1. I love flying for Jet2 and I'm not in any hurry to leave. Just because I'm pro BALPA does not make me anti-company!! If anything, managment would be better off too if we were BALPA affiliated. It means that we would have no reason to complain about half as much!

2. I am in no way knocking the hard work of the Crew Council. I think you guys do a great job and put up with a lot of crap from both sides and you get some things pushed through. But think of the things that we could get done with the weight of BALPA behind you!

That's my 2 pence worth of opinion over - I hope that hasn't upset anyone too much!!

MANBLK
Jet 2's dual basing agreement is audited by the CAA annually. If you don't like it
suggest you advise the Company what you think is wrong with it. If they don't provide a satis reply try [email protected] with examples etc

On the presumption you signed up for willingly the outcome may be on dodgy grounds??

At the time that happened, we had a weak company council.

Now we have an excellent CC chairman and strong support for the CC. We have achieved an excellent pay deal and the CC are now working to bring the conditions of those on the new contract up to the same standard as the rest of us.

Given a determined membership and a competent CC, BALPA works and works very well. You just have to let the bean counters know that you mean business.

OK,

In light of recent developments at Jet2.com, lets put together a census. Is there someone with the technical know-how who can start a thread with one of those POLL things for Jet2 guys entitled something like "JET2 PILOT? ARE YOU A BALPA MEMBER?"

Then a few options like:

a.) Yes I am a BALPA member
b.) No I am not a BALPA member, but would consider joining
c.) No don't believe in Unions
d.) Member of another Pilot Union

Main reason for this, it would seem that Jet2 Pilots are too scared of starting such a thread on their company website which is not anonymous. in fear of backlashes from "da management".....

I know there will be a few spoils as it were, but if they can gauge out of the 300ish pilots who are BALPA members, then, just maybe someone will have the bottle to stand up and be counted!

There seems to be lots of guys unhappy with the degradation of some terms and conditions (let alone some of the few perks still left) at Jet2, but ALWAYS the attitude of "we are SORRY for asking", or "not wanting to upset the management". Do you think for one minute when a decision to charge staff for luggage when travelling staff travel "da management" even consider if they are upsetting their staff.....No I don't think so.

STAND UP AND BE COUNTED, IT IS THE ONLY WAY MANAGEMENT WILL BARGAIN WITH YOU. THE CC ARE DOING THEIR BEST, BUT THEY WILL NEVER HAVE AS MUCH CLOUT AS BALPA!

See thread above and what Monarch Pilots have recently achieved with BALPA.

In the mean time, JOIN BALPA!

I completely agree that we need BALPA, but I do not understand what everyone seems to be afraid of? What can management do to us if we all sign up and get union representation? Fire us? No, because we'll have BALPA on our side and then they won't have anyone to fly their planes and they'll go bust in about a week. Make life difficult for us in some way? Probably nothing more than they already do from day to day, so let's just get it sorted for once.

BALPA would be good for us (Pilots) and for the company and if management can't see that then tough. We want the company to do well so we get paid so we are not going to scr*w the thing up by demanding unreasonable terms and conditions, but merely Ts&Cs that we deserve and that are not degraded every year.

Imagine if we get a stable roster, annual increments to reward us for our loyalty, medical insurance, etc, etc... It might actually become a CAREER airline rather than an airline that is fun to work at for a few years and then you move on.

I am very grateful for everything the Crew Council do and the time they giver up to do it, but they have no power to action anything and it only seems like Management will action what they want.

I think we all know and trust the guys on the Crew Council and they have all our email addresses, so perhaps the best thing they could do is to contact everyone find out who is already in BALPA and who is willing to join up and start a real drive to get us some representation?

Mumbo Jumbo, stay out of this. You have your opinion, fair enough, but it is not helpful here at this time. It just comes across as spiteful and vitriolic.

I work for J2 and I like it there. I am member of BALPA. I respect the people on the CC and their work.

BALPA work for us. They are member-driven and are there to be used by us to negotioate better with people who may otherwise not pay as much heed. Why not use them for our benefit? That is what they are there for. They are not a magical be-all-and-end-all cure to ills and woes, nor some superhero who steps in to save the day unbidden.

BALPA have limited resources - they have a number of projects on the go at any one time, including "recognition" within companies, and have to choose where to put effort, time and monies. They monitor companies but they don't have a magical database of who is where and a member of what - it's a fluid industry. A lot of info comes from us, the members.

A company can be forced to recognise BALPA but this limits what BALPA can negotiate for on our behalf. It may have to start that way, but it is better if there is an "open-door" in to the company. For BALPA to start pushing, they want to see approx 70% membership - as we all know, if the company doesn't want it, they'll do what they can to halt it and in this case there are always some who don't have to the backbone to stand and be counted or bow to bad propoganda etc. This 70% takes this into account. Once this amount is achieved, BALPA will put resource into making recogniton happen. This is fact - not speculation.

If you are in J2, join BALPA. Yes, the IPA is an option, but it dilutes us.
TGWU - why? MJ is right in one respect at least -office staff and cabin crew won't necessarily stand up for what we want, most likely, and vice versa, so why all lump in together? Plus, BALPA is a specialist "union" for us, so why go elsewhere? Would the TGWU have all the specialist info that BALPA has about merging seniority lists, fixed-rosters, other companies Ts+Cs etc?
The CC work hard but do the comapny listen? Why not give them the backup they deserve. If we have the CC AND BALPA, working together, are we not stronger?

I don't want solid gold meal trays (or any meal tray actually for that matter!) or diamond car passes (company has to make money!) - just decent consultation between the all involved. J2 is a good place to be with a host of fine people working there (in all areas) - let's do what we can now to keep it that way!

JOIN BALPA! JOIN BALPA! JOIN BALPA!

The poll was done earlier on in the year on the Jet2 crew forum. It showed over 60% membership and everyone else considering it. However this figure didn't represent the 250 or so pilots as not everyone reads the crew forum.
Actual membership is nearer 30%. As ever apathy reigns, what's in it for me, why should I pay all those subs etc, etc.
As I understand it the company accept that balpa will happen. It won't be long before balpa run a proper targeted campaign for Jet2. But it is going to take a year or so. Look at Easyjet it took time but once everyone got on board they seemed to actually get somewhere.
We just want a fair reward for our services and to make it more of a career airline.
a2d:):)

So how do we 'get the ball rolling' and keep it gathering momentum?

No-one will stand up as 'appointed leader' for fear of management or even worse, not being supported by colleagues when it matters. :ugh:

If a vote is taken and the 50% + 1 isn't attained then do we get 'another go' the following year or is that it?

757 SB and all

Join BALPA!

Get the numbers and we will see

I have been a member for years, thank you!!

Well BALPA obviously know how many members we have...........

Sorry, 757SB, no offence meant.
It was aimed at those, unlike ourselves, who want the representation and all that comes with it but are not members.... yet!

And BALPA don't know - for sure. They don't hold a database of all our pilots and who is a member or not. They rely on members like us to help them out on that score and give them the info. And things change, so we need to tell them who leaves and joins. In a workforce our size, a move of, say, 10 people can make a big difference if they are members or not. Think of the 73' and how much the trim changes if you move very few people front to back or vice versa!

Must have been someone else at BALPA cos person I spoke to has always been very helpful and informative about the current situation and the bigger picture. They have limited resources like any other organisation so we have to wait our turn, for a more bespoke campaign.

At the moment with only 30% or so membership we are stuffed anyway. Until guys get their short arms into their deep pockets and join up then BALPA will remain as just a professional association for the individual.

If when we get union recognition it would also probabley use the existing CC, giving advice and support as required.

a2d

Me thinks the BALPA membership might be in for a bit of a boost in light of rumoured "developements" heading for Manchester !

Just listen to yourselves. :rolleyes: As I mentioned a few months ago, it's the blind leading the blind!

So, Nearly Man, a mate of a mate told you that Balpa were rude and disinterested on the phone. FFS... get a life and try calling them yourself for an accurate opinion. I mean, the sum of your experience of working for UK airlines is...? What was that? How many airlines have you worked for? Oh OK, and that airline had Balpa representation did it? No? Oh, OK. I refer you back to the first paragraph. :rolleyes:

The ONLY hope you lot at J2 have for proper representation is a SINGLE union with overwhelming membership and a dedicated company council. Let's see... IPA... Sorry, I fell over laughing at that one. Once again, let's see their track record. Hmm, still waiting... :hmm:

Joking aside, theres nothing more that most of pilots would like to see is you lot properly represented and negotiating with your management from a position of strength. However, until you get your collective acts together, nothing is going to change and judging by the posts on this thread, I wouldn't advise holding your breath either. :ugh:

As one other poster pointed out earlier, JOIN BALPA! Until then, we will just keep seeing a repeat of this discussion as your terms and conditions are repeatedly eroded and you will remain the laughing stock of the UK pilot community as you bicker amongst yourselves about which way to move forward. Take a bit of advice from those of us who have worked for and are working for airlines with BALPA recognition. :hmm:

Bam,

Care to elaborate?

I heard 737 crews all recieved letters today (recorded delivery) inviting them to a brief tomorrow.....

Jet2 website, Summer 2008 only 6 destinations from MAN, 32 from LBA!!! Errmmmmmm let me think-writing on the wall for the 73 out of MAN me thinks. Crews will probably be asked to up-sticks and hoyk it over to Yorkshire, now that is sure to please everyone:{

JOIN BALPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mumbo jumbo,

Kindly take your ugly brand of CRM some place else. You are not wanted here.

Am I reading different posts here? Or is it just the tired old cliche of when someone says something you don't like, you just blame their CRM......:ugh::ugh:

I never understand why pilots are so loath to join a union or association. But don't think of BALPA as a traditional all powerful '70's style industrial behemoth.

You lot have to do all the work, the CC have to organise and cajole the crews whilst hopefuly working well with the management. It is upto you to do something if you aren't happy with how you are being treated.

A group of workers is a much stronger unit to deal with than individuals, you have more bargaining power and less tolerance to shoddy practice. Whether that goes on at Jet2 I don't know, but it is interesting to note that the companies where the staff feel more valued generally have union recognition.

Recognition isn't a panacea, but just a step in the right direction.

Apathy is no excuse, any Jet2 pilot who is worried about taking a 1% paycutm or infact 0.5% in a non recognised company, simply isn't taking into account the long term benefits of having a union. It isn't about beating up the management or going out on strike, but having a mechanism where pilots and management are able to talk, discuss and ultimately agree on what is best for the company AND it's staff.

Union recognition should be good for both the company and the crews. It doesn't have to be about fighting pay cuts and base closures, though a union would make issues like that a lot less of a problem.

And better yet, PM must be rubbing his hands together watching you lot bicker amongst yourselves.
The 1% subscription, is actually less than .4% if you claim the tax back on it:hmm:
Not a bad return on investment, considering, but only as long as you stick together.

Thanks. I was hoping for decent and sensible posts when I re-started this thread. :ugh:

Now, as asked earlier, what is the proper way to get the ball rolling?

An official letter to the Crew Council, aproach BALPA, etc etc??

Sensible answers and discussion please.............

whats going on with these letters:confused:

I'm happy for either but I'm sure the IPA don't carry half as much 'clout' as BALPA do.

Join BALPA.

They won't come in unless membership is at a certain level. I for one am going to try and help things along a bit. Do, don't just say, but do what needs to be done.

Agree with your post, Say Again.

Do not touch IPA, they are recognised at ONE airline Astraues! Say no more. BALPA is recognised in 26 airlines and members in lots of others.
All 10% membership allows is a ballot (it is actually15%) Any union with sense doesnt ballot until membership is well over 50%. jet2 aint far off, if you are not in BALPA, join AND get a friend to join!
Good luck :D

hirsutesme
 

what a load of old cobblers, jet2 aint far off dissapearing up its own jet pipe,
balpas for BA not for this here today gone tommow excuse for an airline.

I have contacted BALPA directly to see were they stand this was the response:

Thank you for you email.

BALPA membership has many advantages that give value for money to members and peace of mind.

BALPA’s legal services are second to none. Whilst we all hope that we never have cause to use these services the help it provides can be invaluable. In recent times BALPA has helped members faced with losing their pensions, facing disciplinary action because of incidents whilst flying and members needing assistance as a result of passenger action. The cost to an individual of pursuing these claims is prohibitive.

In addition, recent legislation means that you have a legal right to representation from your union should you need it. Again this type of support is invaluable and only available through membership of BALPA.

I would also mention the new tax relief, which BALPA have secured with the Inland Revenue, which applies to 66.7% of your annual BALPA subscription and it has recently been announced that BALPA have agreed a new Fixed Rate Expense Allowance for all company pilots, which is considerably more than any existing allowance.

Jet2 does not currently have the added benefits of BALPA Recognition. In order to achieve this, the law requires a union membership of above 50% with evidence that the majority of the workforce wants Union recognition. Although we are not at these levels at present with colleagues joining and with membership slowly increasing Jet2 will be reviewed in the New Year to anticipate potential for a Recruitment and Recognition campaign. I hope you will consider joining.