!!!!!!!!!, I take it that this proposal is for the Company to increase it contributions? I have heard that the pension fund is in deficit and assume that this increase in contributions is a regulatory requirement to make up the shortfall.
Could you clarify the situation?
Thanks, Yarpy

Sorry to go back to him, but Vol7 do you really think working to rule and no discretion is not actually more annoying for the staff on the ground? At least with a full scale down tools you know there are no flights and not just some here and none there.

On another tack, Mr Lexx is a bmi frequent flier and he was shocked when he heard about the extra pention contributions and higher tax code on flight pay, he gives his full support, as do I. (Mr L is an accountant btw.)

I believe an undertaking that the pension fund contribution would decrease again "when" the deficit has been cleared has been given, the company is making up 2/3 of the deficit, with increased member contributions making up for the other 1/3, remember that the contribution increase of 18% plus is for pilots who want to retire at 55,and there will be a 40% tax allowance to deduct from that increase, you can pay less of an increase and work a bit longer if you like, and spare a thought for the non flying staff who must work until 65 and whose contributions have gone up from around 6.2% to 11.5% from a much lower salary level and for a 1/60th accrual rate(unless you are willing to have a lower accrual rate -1/80ths- and a max 2.5% growth rate if you freeze your fund or retire!!) I believe it is time for a reality check with regard to the pension fund, it is still worth having (dont forget the death in service benefits and widows pension that goes with the package) and whilst the management of many issues has been woeful the pension issue is not of their making entirely, there has been a distinct lack of information from the trustees who have not verified the companys calculations with regard to deficit and I would be interested in knowing how much AON :mad: consulting creams from the fund for their fee, remember if you lose or pull out of the final salary scheme you will not (unless extreme luck is on your side !) get into another one, ask any independent financial consultant or expert how much value they put on being in a final salary scheme these days, you might well get a surprise, we will all retire someday and it will be too late to have regrets by then!!:eek: , a little (lot ?) of pain now may be worth it in the longer term, at least they have offered us all 4 different options( 1/ higher contributions with no loss of accrual or benefits /growth,,or 2/ no increase in contributions but a lower accrual and max 2.5% growth, or 3/ a combination of option 1 & 2 ie for pilots a 2% increase in contribution and change of accrual rate from 1/50 to 1/60 per year served, or 4/ leave the scheme freezing your fund with no loss of accrued pension Each individual can choose for any of these options so it is not just a take it or leave it situation , I think it is hard to see what else they could do to keep the final salary scheme alive (and it IS WORTH keeping alive!!) HOWEVER the pay issue is an entirely different matter and enforced awards with no negotiation or consultation is never the way to get the workforce on side, I fear that this time Nige and Co are about to learn the important lesson that even the most dedicated and long suffering members of staff will say ENOUGH !! if they continue to have the urine extracted from them in this manner:ugh:

I will now stand back and await the inevitable panning from the angry mob:=

Good luck guys and dolls do the right thing I just wish that all the unions could get together and hammer out the problem with bmi management sorry MISS management. All the other departments are behind you 100%.

I find some of the outside comments disturbing no one wants to put the airline in jeopardy we just want what’s fair in an industry that has been ravaged over the last few years, Sept 11th ,fuel surcharges, landing fees, tax and insurance to name but a few and this is being used against us.

Some very bad decisions have been made in the past few years I wish they would just admit it put things right get the staff behind them again and move on.

I remember a blanket pay rise for everyone back around the early 90’s that was a great boost to moral after another difficult lean period in aviation.

I dont see why you should get a panning, I thought you expressed the situation pretty well.
What with bmi, BA, BA Con and flybe all boiling up (plus Ryanair?) I reckon we're in for an autumn hotter than the summer!

Regional
 

Guys,

Whilst theres much talk about mainline and Baby, I'd like to point out that the regional pilots are right behind you :ok:

The regional bosses have been equally dismissive of BMI regional pilot's requests of merely discussing a settlement, let alone negotiating one. We are being ignored and treated like children.

Do not underestimate the level of feeling at BMI Regional.

Bring on the ballot!

Having read lexxity's post re VOL7, here's some interesting info;

The ballot paper I received only asked one question - 'are you in favour of industrial action?'

It did not ask me whether I was in favour of industrial action short of strike action. So work to rule etc etc are probably not options that are being considered.

For the benefit of VOL7 - unofficial industrial action such as work to rule, carrying full tanks, refusing discretion leaves individuals open to disciplinary proceedings and possibly being dismissed. This is a serious situation and BALPA are ensuring the pilots remain within the protection of industrial relations statutes.

Some good recent posts here, excellent.

Just a thought. I have never seen an airline without pilots, has anyone???

Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it.

Also, why should we be understanding towards the company? We've been here 4 years and conditions have continously worsened. Can't blame JR any more!
What's in it for us? Why talk in September or April? We are here and now. We want what's rightfully ours NOW. Our pay has nothing to do with profit! Our pay - like fuel - like maintenance - like insurance, aircraft leasing, catering, ATC charges, etc... should be part of the expenditure of the business, not profit related.
The company doesn't say to the fueller, well we can't pay you what you want now, maybe later. They can't say that to ATC, maintenance or anyone else indeed - BUT US THE PILOTS. The primadonnas. The expensive bully-able crowd.
When you call an electrician to your house, you pay the going rate. You don't ask him to consider your financial position!
We should equally be paid the going rate right this instance, not 'perhaps' later.
If the company is unable to meet it's expenditure, then unfortunately it has to close. Clear cut and fair. We find other jobs that can and will pay us the going rate.

We don't need this dispute. No one does.
The management are the cause of it and I'm getting tired.

MM:ok:

Alternatively, their mistake may lead to the pilots not getting paid at all! hehe

It really depends on your base level salary as to whether you can afford it or not, can you not afford to have a properly funded pension scheme ?, I was certainly not trying to divide and rule , quite the opposite in fact!, I am a firm believer in "combined employee group" negotiations, the one thing that the management would not want would be a united workforce ALL standing firm for the same goal!! I was merely drawing your attention to plight that other employee groups within bmi are in, we are all in the same boat when it comes to the pension, is this ballot for action about the enforced pay award or the increase in pension contributions ?

Miss Management what if an Engineer made the mistake of his/her life? the best they could hope for is a 10 year stretch for manslaughter, so we ALL have an important part to play, Please do not try and give the impression that one group is more special than any other and therefore deserves a greater (in percentage terms ) pay rise. Try not fall into the divide and rule trap, you will only be helping management win with that attitude

mccdatabase

I almost completely agree with you.
The odd one out is the engineer of course, as he's doing a front line job too.
Of course his life's mistake could be quite noisy, expensive or even fatal for others. That is why engineers should not be treated like office staff either.
So, pilots and engineers should be regarded as different from the rest.
Look how are management are regarded. They are on a different deal altogether.

The diatribe didn't say that management are also part of this 2.4% lark. Should it have? Should they be also part of "most employee groups that appear to have tacitly accepted the 2.4% award"? If not why not?

Balpa's communication of the 26th July says otherwise. It says that other staff groups are "unhappy about the imposition of the corporate pay award".

Who knows?:D

I did. Hello BA

I got the message alright
A typicall response it seems "if you don't agree with us your not worth listening to"
-
As for disciplinary action for refusing to sell days off or go into discretion I have never heard such rubbish.
-
Lexx of course this would be a preferred course of action the company would still struggle if crews did this but everyone else would still be in a job, dispatchers wouldn't be sent home, cabin crew would still get sector pay etc etc and the company would still have something they need to address.

Just to straighten your facts, this only applies to a minority of pilots who joined before the late eighties, for the rest of us it's retirement at 60, with no option to go earlier. I for one have over 20 years left!
HOT OFF THE PRESS
The mainline ballots will go out on the 3rd August and the ballot will last for 3 weeks. Action to be taken within 28 days of closure (but can be extended by mutual consent) With the statutory 7 day notice period of stoppages factored in this means no disruption until 31st August at the earliest. Although remember that any 'baby' action my be slightly earlier as the ballot is already in progress.

Having read all these comments above, VOL7 - what on earth are you still doing here. Look it's the week end, you must be off, so go and enjoy it.
Let this problem be sorted by the professional pilots of these airlines. As someone above nearly said what's an anti-pilot doing in aviation in the first place? You do have to question that.

Have a good week end :sad: :eek: :confused: :zzz

Hi All,

I've heard from several people over the past few days that NT has stated he would like to make an example of the bmibaby pilot workforce in order to quash any uprising by mainline or regional. In fact, I heard one person say the NT has stated he would 'let baby fold' rather than give in to demands !

Now, while I believe that this is just the company progaganda machine grinding into action, it begs the question ..... why the hell couldn't BALPA synchronise the ballots for maximum effect ?

All this sitatuion does is to put more pressure on the baby work force ... and the company knows this ... hence the reason the TB also sent a letter to cabin crew effectively telling them that those nasty pilots were putting their jobs at risk !

Also the same reason that command assessments until further notice. This has nothing to do with industrial action (we can barely crew the aircraft we have now) ... its just the divide and conquer tictac again.

BALPA - is there any way that all 3 ballot (baby, mainline and regional) results could be announced at the same time ???????

Vol 7 is right in some respects.

By definition, a work to rule cannot possibly result in a disciplinary. How can it if you haven't broken any rules?

This is all about making the management realise how much this airline, particularly bmibaby relies on 'good will' to muddle on through from one day to the next. Good will is unquantifiable until it is completely taken away.

A strike would certainly demonstrate this and I hole-heartedly support the 'enough is enough' campaign, but I feel that a protracted and less 'gentlemanly' obeyance of the playground rules should not be ruled out.

This is a path that must be followed. Lose this battle and you'll never win another one again.

I will say this once and once only............

im very dissapointed in the recent post, havnt read all of it due to i dont tend to read utter rubbish!

some of the posts i did though make me laugh, one in paticular:-

"""Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it."""

Hmm a couple of points, the security staff do not get your wages, way below what you get - they are too equal too your S U P E R I O R role it would seem, oh and for those that dont know they make sure bombs and knives do not go on board YOUR AIRCRAFT!!!

If you do decide to strike the real grafters (the guys that work 15hour shifts boarding OUR flights) to earn a living will be under alot of pressure and strain from pax, i guess you wouldnt understand that side of it - by the way these are the people that pay yours and ours wages!

We are supposed to be a team, pilots (bar a few) think they are better than the rest - WAKE UP BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT !!!

As you can see i am very angry, disturbed and very annoyed! its not like you earn the most operationally or anything is it??!!

If you dont like it BUZZ OFF!!

Various middle managers doing the rounds at several Baby bases today in an attempt to sway the votes of individuals. Stable doors and horses sprang to mind as most pilots will have already returned their ballot papers.

I have some sympathy with these individuals as they are caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to sell the company line dictated from above but having little conviction of believing it themselves.

What was apparent was the first hint of real concern starting to surface - perhaps having been slowly inched to the precipice and seen a glimpse of the abyss below they are not so confident about avoiding the fall.

I would think the pyschological pressure will steadily build as the 3 weeks to the ballot result slowly passes.

COME ON BOYS & GIRLS
 

I have just spent ages wading through all this lot. As a senior BMI mailnline pilot(as a senior manger described me recently) I would like to add a few points.

The last well meant but misguided post is one of the reasons we are all experiencing eroded conditions and salaries. Yes, we are all part of a team but the marketplace dictates salaries, as with everything else (have you noticed the price of oill!) If you think security officers are that important, be one,. I thought being a pilot was very important that why i chose to be one!

Unlike many of you I was an airport labourer, i had to work for a few pounds a week and teated like absolute !!!! but not so i could be an airline pilot and be told that security people are just as important. Of course they are important, so is the lavatory cleaner(and I have done that too) but the king pins in an airline operation are the flight deck crew, thats not an opinion, its an obvious fact, if it isnt lets see Bye and Turner operate a service to Palma because I will gladly do their jobs for half the pay and the difference is i could, maybe not as well, ( and so could any of our pilots.)

That smart Irish pratt said PILOTS ARE THE MOST OVERPAID, OVER COSSETED WORKERS IN THE WORLD. This gives you a clue as to where the rot has crept in--- BUDGET AIRLINES. To operate a budget airline everything needs to be at budget costs but I am not a budget pilot and neither are most of my colleagues. Its about time BALPA actually took a stance on actually being a union and made airlines realise that pilots rank with lawyers and,doctors etc not security officers. It would also be good if BALPA could remind them that Lawyers and Doctors (GPs) dont work much after 5 pm and have weekends off, not too many of them are required to night stop in crap hotels or do a six monthly skills check or meet class one medical standards.Not many doctors and lawyers are forced to retire at 60/65.
And finally not many Doctors and lawyers can kill their clients 100-200 at a time.


Budget airlines have brought about a decline in our working conditions (the fatigue of aircrew documet needs a complete re-write as it was written for BEA DC3 pilots), pay , VALUE and RESPECT. I am all for cheap air travel but i dont notice budget mortgages, wifes or children! I dont want to see pilots subsidising air travel because thats what you are all doing--so get real and stand up for the profession--but please dont strike, only as a last alternative because we are in such a unique position you could in a week ruin what has taken a lifetime to build-- please consider a work to rule first.

Dear Mr Flares,
an interesting first post with many points worthy of discussion - thank you for sharing your concerns.

Firstly. let me say that the pilots have not rushed into this action. We have spent 18 months trying to resolve the situation but have finally come to an impasse because the company will not talk to us in any meaningful way.

Secondly, we are sensitive to the fact that the threat of industrial action brings uncertainty over the future and we hope the impasse with management can be resolved without recourse to strike action. However, it is not an idle gesture and management are becoming aware of our resolve.

I'm sorry that you think that the pilots as a group are not team players. From my experience I would like to think that we offered what support we could when the engineers and ground handlers at EMA were badly treated by the company. Had either of these groups decided to go to industrial action they could have relied on our understanding and support.

Companies by nature are heirarchical, there are people at the top, middle and bottom. Generally speaking pilots are neither at the very top nor at the bottom. Who you are is not defined by the job you do and everyone deserves to be treated with respect whatever their station in life. I'm sorry if your experience with pilots has been less than that.

Lastly, we could all, indeed, buzz off - in fact quite a few have done just that - but some of us prefer to stay and try to improve our situation. Some pilots have invested a good many years in bmi and would like to see a return on their investment.

As I said earlier hopefully the managers will realise our resolve in this dispute and we can resume meaningful talks to avert a strike.

Flight Crew are not the only kingpins of an Airline, anybody who works in an operational section is a kingpin.If the checkin staff don't check in any pax you would not have a reason to fly. If the Engineers don't fix the aircraft you would not have an aircraft to fly etc etc. Even down to the guy who drives the s**t wagon, if he didn't do his job you soon wouldn't have any pax who wanted to fly on your aircraft. Lots of people are kingpins to an airlines operation.

I worked as a pilot for Midland at Heathrow for a number of years. With out doubt the airline has a very odd company culture. Aside from the flying, I learned two things about life from working there. First, how to cut costs and second not to trust someone who smiles at you.

The airline has a black monkey sitting on its shoulder. You could cut the atmosphere in the Queens Building with a knife some mornings. This is the place where the Kegworth crew lived. I believe also the Trident Papa India pilots walked out from there.
I would suspect the very senior people in the company (whoever they are) are quite relaxed about the current industrial situation. They have no intention of allowing a strike and every intention of taking the situation to the wire when they will back down.
However, some of the pilots will be far from relaxed and some emotions will run very high. This company invented the term machiavelian. It knows just how to twist, maniplutate, connive and put people under huge pressure. They know the emotional handles to pull to get things done. QED the ploy of removing crewroom furniture. How humiliating can you get? My wife used to debrief me on the days flying. She could tell when the very senior person was adopting a hands on management style.

The oddest thing about Midland is that the culture is also very fickle. I had a family tragedy and, for an airline, they couldn't have been more helpful. When I most needed the pressure to be off it was.

My point is that the pilots can win this situation outright by ignoring the threats, staying calm and going to the wire. Maybe even stepping over it for a day.

I have worked for a number of airlines but Midland made it's mark on me and I was thoroughly glad to leave. However, I doubt you will find a more capable and sharp bunch of aviators in the business.

I wish everyone all the best in these trying times.

I have been told that the major issue here is a lingering failure to resolve the 04/05 pay deal....ostensibly because the IR work to their own bureaucratic time scale.

It seems inconceivable to me that the IR can allow an un-level playing field to exist with respect to certain allowances and the tax-benefits allied to them. This is anti-competitive.

Conversely, it seems likely that if such a situation was contested, the company would stand a good chance of winning a case which argued for parity, with, for example, another LOCO airlines recompense paradigm.

Let us assume this to be the case.

I have been told that the cost of underwriting the difference between the old bmibaby allowances scheme and, for example, the Easyjet allowances scheme is ~£500K.

I have also been told that the cost of a one day strike is upwards of £2 million.

It seems to me, then, the way forward is clear.

Every other group in the company has had closure on their 04/05 pay deal except bmibaby pilots. They continue to lose money every day as a result.

The claim that this is about an unwillingness to accept 2.4% for 06/07 is management propaganda.

I trust those of you involved achieve your ambitions.

no deal
 

At regional the 04 /05 deal was never settled. :ugh:

It was put aside to make way for the 05/06 talks which as you know were sidelined and the 2.4% settlement imposed! :*

Since the indicative ballot management have offered to open talks about 06/07 early. :=

No talking just get them to start putting the deals on the table:mad:

Rgds

K.I.L.

Deal or no deal:=

I agree with Caractacus,

this will ultimately come down to brinkmanship but I cannot see SMB standing idly by whilst NT allows Baby to have a CFIT. He's got a lot of dosh tied up in the Midland group and he won't let NT put that in jeopardy. The pilots at KLMC needed to take their company to the edge before they saw any meaningful dialogue - I forsee much the same for us.

Most pilots will probably have voted by now so whilst Donington Hall can go into spin overdrive the lots have already been cast. We just need to remain professional, continue to do our job and carefully weigh all future announcements from management.

It's all about nerve. I've been in this situation many times before in another airline and the pilots always won out in the end but the management always took it to the eleventh hour. No backing down and they will cave-in. SMB will not let things go to the wall as he's worked too hard to get to where he is today, at his age he will not be into large risk. Keep your nerve people and good luck to the baby pilots as it seems they'll be first to go head to head with NT & Co.

Just like 'The Count' I've been here before. A little bit of solidarity goes a long way!:ok:

What is the culture like at BMI? Are Captains God?..or is it relaxed and open..or something in between?...Just interested:)

Errrr... was a real question

Pilots at bmi as some of the nicest I've come across , good operators no " god complex" just normal boys/girls giving there all for an employer who is take take take.
The trouble with the bmi management is everyone is expendable pilots are no exception.
Its' always been the company way no matter what department you work in.
Esp with the pilots , "You dont like it leave. Promote rhs to lhs and get a new cheap oxford cadet into the rhs." And there is always a long queue of willing victims.

Moo

I concur with 'The Moo'. A fine bunch of pilots and decent folk with it. It is completely bizarre that bmi cannot see the value of this professional capital.

Contrastingly the management are the most penny pinching small minded bunch you could imagine. They deserve absolutley no sympathy and I doubt they will get it.

bmi mainline strike ballot
 

bmi mainline strike ballot papers being posted out tomorrow (Thurs 3rd).

bmi mainline covers all the airbus (A319,320,321,330) operation in and out of LHR, and in and out of MAN.

It also includes a lot of charter work being done by airbuses farmed out to the regions this summer for a variety of customers. (ex BHX, EMA, BHD,BFS, GLA,NCL etc).

Couldn't agree more!

On an aside, what thoughts does anyone within the company (besides pilots)have of today's memo to all staff by NT?

The bit about risking your overtime/shift pay was a cheap shot, but expected unfortunately. You can expect more of the same propaganda.

If you want the real story, talk to the pilots at work and then decide.

That should turn the thumb screws a little, me thinks!:cool:

Work to rule?
 

Before you consider going down that road the prime consideration has to be absolute solidarity and the backing of the union.
Otherwise it is easy for the management to "pick off" one or two of the leaders and subject them to a flawed disciplinary process.
This has a variety of benefits for the management: firstly, if they are sufficiently astute they will select a couple of victims who cannot possibly claim racial or sexual or health and safety in their defence. This limits absolutely the power of the Industrial Tribunal to make an award; in addition, even if the Tribunal orders the company to restore the victims to their jobs and to compensate their losses the law is toothless and the decison is not enforcable if the company decide to decline. Which of course they will.
Secondly, the victim, who is immediately suspended, and thereby isolated from his / her colleagues, can be selected for their role, or perceived role, in leading the dispute, thereby, hacking away at the leadership.
Since they will ultimately move through the disciplinary process, frustrated at every turn it discourages their colleagues, who see this, from "breaking ranks"; finally, when the process is exhausted they find themselves out of a job and the company has rid itself, very cheaply, of 2 or 3 "troublemakers".

So you see, in some cases, the Industrial Tribunal and Disciplinary process is actually just another tool the company can use which has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the workforce.
Unite or perish.

From what I see, we are united, and when the rest of the non pilot staff read the recent memo from the CEO, I`m sure they will support us too.
Suddenly the management want to talk to them about 2007 pay. This would not have occured without the current situation, maybe they will decide consultation is a fairer way of treating their employees.
Regards to all the bmi staff on the `coal face`, you make a difference and deserve respect as well.

Yeah but What about the 06 pay agreement,it has to be sorted:mad: :mad:

rgds

K.I.L.

Not to mention the 05 pay round at baby.

A rather school boy delaying tactic me thinks.