heard the papers will be sent out over the next 7 days

rgds

K.I.L.

Story is on BBC News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5216386.stm

Jordan

Please remember that all three branches of the company (mainline, baby and regional) are balloting on separate issues. Any subsequent industrial stoppages will only affect the branch concerned. However, all three will probably be arranged to coincide for maximum impact. According to the article above it looks like the 'baby' ballots have just gone out. As far as mainline is concerned BALPA still have to give the 7 days notification to the company of their intent to ballot, although this is imminent.
bmi have never paid the 'going rate' for anything and it will be an uphill struggle to alter the mindset of management.
Unfortunately the pilot body rolled over and had their tummy tickled the last time we balloted on industrial action a few years ago and the management probably assumes we will do the same again. I feel they may be in for a shock!;)

Good luck to you all!!
/CP

The press release from BALPA gives some key points / dates.

http://www.balpa.org/Media---Pr/bmi%20release.htm

My only gripe is that this potrays us as a bunch of pilots rejecting a 2.4% pay rise for this year. Actually we're in dispute over the previous year's imposed pay round which resulted in a net loss of income through sector pay and profit share - both unilaterally imposed by management. The fact that we're still trying to sort this out 18 months later gives you some indication of the patience shown by the pilots at Baby and of the intransigence of management.

We're fighting an imposed pay cut, it is not about being sniffy over the size of a pay rise!

Guys, please dont rise to mutants bait. I really don't want this thread diverging down the tea & coffee path again.:bored:

Hey mutant,you wouldn't have the initials AG by any chance?

I am trying to remain impartial on this matter could somebody please tell me exactly what the Pilots expect to get from strike action.
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As far as I can see their two biggest gripes are the imposed 2.4% pay increase that the rest of the groups employees have accepted in these trying times and also the further taxation of sector pay which I understand from the previous posts is due to the inland revenue.
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Surely strike action can only harm the group as a whole and cause an enormous amount of cost which seems to me would only further harm any pay talks in the future.

You said it VOL7: imposed 2.4% +further taxation of sector pay. We want NEITHER.

Surely that's the decision for management. They have the facts.

Not a BMI pilot here...just an interested observer:ok:

Perhaps the pilot body have exhausted all other means of influencing negotiations...the argument could be made that management have a lot more to lose than the pilots stand to lose:=

Perhaps it is that they have exhausted all measures, but why should the pilots get more of a pay increase than the rest of the employees I actually think 2.4% is not bad, and why should the company foot the bill for the Inland Revenue increasing the tax on sector pay.
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The rest of the company's employees will suffer as a result of strike action and it seems this don't care attitude from the Pilot community does not do them any favours, on top of that arrogant statements from BALPA like this
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What about everyone else, I understand pilots are a valuable commodity to an airline and also very expensive to train but why not have a thought for the rest of the work force and lets not forget the passengers or does an airline just need Pilots to operate.
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I'm afraid the more I read the less sympathy I have.:= :=

It is lamentable that none of the other groups of employees have been organised enough to take an effective stand against the behaviour of the bmi board.

If they were then I am honestly certain they would be able to count upon support from the pilots, acutely aware as they are of the demands being made on bmi staff in the name of increasing profits.

The future success of all components of the bmi group is without a doubt a concern of the pilot group as well - they are not keen on signing our own death warrant - but they consider it no longer acceptable to build that success at the expense of continuning erosion of their working conditions, family lifestyle and professional dignity.

For example, that profitshare which all employees of baby have shared over the last couple of years has been achieved to a great degree by the pilots, in tolerating roster disruption, years of non-negotiated, delayed, salary impositions, and a slowly degrading quality of life compared to their colleagues elsewhere in industry.

Maybe the group won't make so much money next year as a result of the actions of the pilots, but the feeling is that enough is enough.

FYI, the current situation with the IR, regarding 'baby sector pay, was not initiated by the IR themselves, but by bmibaby management. The pilots feel that such an error should not be paid for out of their expenses.

VOL 7

You don't sound like a pilot to me. That in itself is no problem at all. However you are making postings on a pilot website, on a thread about pilot welfare.
No one has the extra time to explain to you how the company and the Inland Revenue screwed things up exactly. Just take it from the posting pilots that we want to improve our standard of living, to which there are many more "silent" facets then mentioned here. Management are not playing, indeed they treat us as some inconvenient bunch of expensive extras.
Our conditions are deteriorating and going backwards. The first officers are all leaving, there's no future unless we fight for it.
Enough said.

Re: "I fear some of you may be too polite on the picket line"
Watch this space,we had one of the Mis/management who thinks hes a bit of a hard lad, with the usual swearing attitude at the pilot roadshows but he just looked a bit of a t**t.
Its the quite ones you have to look out for amoung the ranks most have the Labrador personality,very easy going until they feel they have been pushed into the corner,and i feel my friend that the corner is getting smaller.


rgds

K.I.L.

keepitlit - what are you talking about?

nothing to do with you miss,im just describing our management hence the miss management

rgds
K.I.L.

Basics
 

[QUOTE=Dr. Spin]
bmi have never paid the 'going rate' for anything

This just about sums the whole problem up. The market dictates a value for goods and services and if that value is not paid then problems ensue. Experienced pilots and A330's (to name 2 completely random examples) have their natural value according to supply and demand and if you don't like like paying that value then these things tend to be in short supply. There's no such thing as a free lunch and if one wants to run a business with integrity and respect, then, as a business owner, I believe one should want to pay a fair (meaning market) rate. Come to that, why not a couple of percentage points more to show the workforce they are respected and valued. See what that does for profit, productivity and the infamous bottom line.
It's all basic management theory!

The storm clouds build once more, forecast has never reached anything more than a 'Prob 30'. A big decision required now by those affected - can you afford not to turn up to work? How does this balance up with the desire to finally have your say and be listened to?

Is a strike the best option? The acutest of storms can be weathered ( look at BA), the real pain comes with 40 days and 40 nights of -DZ. Crap metaphors probably, what I'm trying to say is what ever happened to the work to rule, go slow, refuse discretion, full wings etc things you can do to make the same point ( and have fun at the same time!)

Non flying staff - be careful posting on a subject you know VERY little about.

Good luck to you all. Have the lie -in you deserve it.

;)

bmi management understand one thing. Sorry, I should say, Sir Michael Bishop understands one thing - bad MEDIA coverage and negative image of the group - (especially the guys and girls who are responsible for customers lives), is not a good thing. Senior directors heads will roll ( again ) if this gets to actual industural action. I for one support Sir Michael in this previous act.

Dublin ground staff stood their ground during the Aviance take over ,deal -or no deal - , although the reserves from the UK were drafted in to take up the flack. However I would like to see the flight ops directors of all 3 companies draft in Airbus / Boeing / Embraer Pilots at short notice with the hand shake of the CAA.

Stand firm - vote YES.

VOL 17,

if you want to contibute positively to this thread have the courtesy to read previous posts before you start tapping the keys.

If you had bothered to read previous posts you would have seen pilots in Baby have been patient in the extreme, 18 months of trying to engage the company in dialogue to no avail.

Also its not about a 2.4% pay rise its about an enforced 5% pay cut for some pilots.

I just wanted to say to members of staff who are not pilots but who read these threads - this is NOT about the pilots vs the rest of the working groups. That is what the company want you to think it is. I have spoken to engineers, cabin crew and load controllers and they ALL bar none have been supportive. I would urge ALL pilots in mainline, regional and baby, to take every chance they get to make sure that workers in other areas know what the issues are. Whilst we sit at the end with the point on it we all know that in reality it takes a team to get the aircraft into the air.
I would support any working group in the company who are prepared to put their hands up and say - no more, enoughs enough.
Good luck to all bmi pilots.

Over the last few years we have seen the gradual erosion of our overall package. This was generally accepted by the workforce to ease the company out of the difficult trading circumstances after Sept 11th.
Throughout there was an inference that all would be redressed once we returned to profit. This has not been the case.
All I wish for is realistic recompense with respect to my position as a highly motivated and professional operator.
I have been an airbus narrowbody skipper for many years now, and my take home salary is on a par with a year 1 long haul first officer in BA. When you now factor in a proposed increase of 8.5% (18.5% of gross salary instead of 10%) in my pension contributions for the same benefit then he will be earning more than me! I'm not having a go at BA here, and you could argue that if I don't like it then I could always go there, but I like where I am, I don't want to change seats anyway.
The pension issue has now been added to the list of items that BALPA and the management have 'failed to agree' on, and I for one will be lending my full support. :ok:

By turning up to work you'll be letting-down your colleagues who are prepared to stand up for their and your working conditions. It most probably won't come to action taking place but it's the only option left for now with the arrogant stance being taken by the management at bmi. As I've said before any axe swinging by Mr. Bishop will be at senior management (mis-management!)

b mi baby
I take your comments on board and appreciate your adult approach to a discussion,my opinion was exactly that just my opinion
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Looker I did read the previous posts and I am afraid that just because my point of view is different from yours does not mean it is worthless and should not be aired.
I do not see the merit in comments that my opinion is not valid just because I am not a Pilot when the decision you ultimately make will affect myself and thousands of others like me.
It is once again this elitist attitude that lets your colleagues down.
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Perhaps with a more sensible approach to this topic you would have more support as I am not sure that currently the comments that "the work force is behind you" is exactly true.
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Anyway I shall take heed of your advice and butt out of something that does not concern me.:mad:

Climb Ltd -

work to rule/go slow/full wings/having fun/lie-ins...?

One thing the bmi pilots need to be at pains to point out throughout this dispute is that they are professionals, and deserve to be treated and valued as such.

If pilots cannot act correctly and professionally at all times at work, then they should not be at work at all.

No half-measures, and certainly no fun to be had during any kind of industrial action.

VOL7
VOL7

Just what do you think you have "added" so far to this subject?
What would you like to contribute?
You have been told that you not being a pilot is not a problem, but you are still trying to say something but nothing's coming out.

Vol 7

You hit the nail right on the head,that is exactly what the pilot workforce is trying to do,show the management they need us more than they think and hopefully SMB will see the effect on his customers and put an offer on the table as its gone past talking they had that chance and blew it.
If it comes down to actual action but dont think for one second that we wont carry out and action,we didnt pick this fight but we are going to finish it.

Oh as for "elitist attitude" I dont know what job do you do but I bet you didnt you pay up to 60K like alot of us have!

I heard a comment about pilots being over paid premadonna's

I disagree we are not overpaid:O :D :ok:

rgds

K.I.L.

ok fine
Rather than beat around the bush and try to be polite about the matter I will come right out with it.
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I think that to strike is a very selfish approach to this problem
I think the Pilots issues are exaggerated and again selfish
Didn't the Pilots threaten to strike over the 2004 pay deal (boy who cried wolf)
It seems to me certain members make it worse for everybody else with their attitude and seem happy to try and run a company into the ground purely for their own gain.
The attitude of some crews give the good guys a bad name
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Why not try and resolve this matter without dragging everyone else down
Work to rule if you have to, refuse to sell days off, refuse discretion but don't just decide to have a few days off and never mind the consequences for everyone else
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K.I.L
I never said that Pilots were overpaid I know how much it costs to learn to fly and have no issues with Pilots Salaries. The elitist comment has absolutely nothing to with money just attitude.

End of the road
 

Negotiations have been going on for many months now. We have exhausted all other avenues.
It is the management who are not prepared to even to meet with our representatives.
The 'demands' if you can call them such, are sympathetic with the position the company finds itself in with regard to the pension deficit, they ask for no more than parity within the industry. In fact the overall outline was the best piece of writing to come out of the New Road in the last decade.
I wish it could be resolved amicably but what you are witnessing is the end of a very long road! We're all fed up and tired of the stagnation, and we're not prepared to walk away!

Vol 7: Over the last 18 months, the pilots have attempted to resolve the situation without resorting to industrial action.

They have put up with continual stalling and attmepts at fobbing off while they patiently tried to work something out, all the time that 'working into discretion' and selling days off were a significant factor in keeping company/group running at all, for the benefit of all of employees.

Doesn't sound particularly selfish to me.

The threat to strike in 2004 was taken seriously by management, a settlement was reached which was acceptable to all involved, thus there was no need to strike. This is how industrial relations (in their most degraded stage,sadly) work. No crying wolf - the pilots were deadly serious then, as now.

Pilots, perhaps more so than any other group of employees, are acutely aware of the commercial impact of critical decisions which they make daily. The same awareness extends to industrial matters - no sane individual, pilot or not, believes they can gain anything if a company is run 'into the ground', as you put it.

You seem to think this is about spite or some similar emotional response on behalf of the pilots - quite the opposite. Patience, goodwill, and reserves of dignity have been exhausted, the only practical, rational step left open to the pilots, after already attmepting all those avenues you mention, is the threat and, should it become necessary, delivery of industrial action.

VOL 7,

So you read the previous posts but clearly you didn't understand the thrust of our arguments.

18 months of negotiations with management who proved to be disengenuous.

18 months of reduced take home pay.

12 months waiting for the imposed pay rise to turn up in our salary.

If you can tell me which other group of workers within bmi has suffered the same treatment I'd like to hear about it.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT A 2.4% PAY RISE - ITS ABOUT A PAY CUT.

GOT IT? :ugh:

VOL7's quotes:

Doesn't matter what you think, let the majority decide.

It's only your opinion, not many others think so.

I do hope you mean the management.

Good guys? Who do you mean? Those not in balpa?


What? Where have you been. You cannot be serious!:yuk:

I am one of the pilots. Who are you for xsake?

Listen guys, like on all threads there'll always be an odd one that stands out a mile from the rest. Then, everyone homes in and keeps on replying to the odd one out. I think we have a subject to write about and lets leave our friend VOL7 to himself now.:}

I agree with co pilot, seeing as VOL7 won't be receiving a ballot paper its pointless replying to his ignorant babble. :}
Speaking of ballot papers mine arrived today .... oh where should I put that cross? One of life's easier decisions :}

Why don't you just leave? The going rate for pilots would soon apply....

Roman -

Are you VOL7 with another name?
You are almost identical.
You are an anti-pilot.:=

I work with one of the country's leading legal pensions practices and noticed an item on today's electronic bulletin from a reference service widely used in the profession featuring the proposed increase in pension contributions for BMI Mainline pilots. I can say that everyone in my department who saw the item was astounded by the reported proposal by the company to increase contributions from 10% to 18% plus.

I wish those of you involved in the ballot all good fortune and hope for a satisfactory outcome for a situation brought about by most unsatisfactory behaviour by your employer.

I think Vol got the message,teeth back in at the read guys,right whos next!

Nice to hear what you just posted !!!!!!!!! thanks for the support:ok:

Rgds

K.I.L.

P.S. a few tips would be grateful

Just Curious;
How many pilots are in Mainline,Baby & regional?. I know some of the 320 crews as I handle the a/c's at work every day. BMI have already shafted their Engineers in EMA at the behest of the Beancounters, the Hosties are cleaning the cabin for the same reason. Now pilots the beancounters are pointing the gun at you. They have already saved money by stalling you in a waffling exercise for 18 months out of which you have got nothing.. Time to call a spade a spade,downtools ( & Flightplans) and above all stick together & holdout because remember Managment have more to lose than you do. Everyday a fleet of 30 odd A/C are parked up the pressure on them increases to do anything to get them back iun the air. Eventually they will have to cave in. Best of luck!:ok:

IF action were to take place and IF it was successful in gaining a higher percentage increase, bmi would find itself in a very difficult position with the rest of the non pilot workforce, in as much that pay awards in terms of percentage rises have generally been give to all across the board (for bmi mainline), and some unions may have provisos that if any other departments get a higher percentage award than they settled for, then they would also get the same percentage increase, after all when the company have given rises in the past they always say that they cannot give one section of the workforce a higher percentage than any other! It will be interesting to see how the management get themselves out of this one:eek:

Could not agree more BUT this situation is ENTIRELY of their own making. Let them sort it out. The corporate pay rise is part of the reason why the company is in such a mess. Remember when is comes to pay they say we are corporate and when it comes to benefits they say work for different airlines on different contracts. What a mess!