Spelling isn't too bad but the punctuation is terrible.:p

To the thread....

I had a look at the BALPA video the other day. Not being a member of BALPA I enquired of my own TU, (sh)AMICUS if they were being as proactive.

Not heard a dicky bird. Says it all really.
Best of luck to you in your fight, let's face it, no other TU has the wherewithall or the guts! :mad:

Join the Club, Turin!!!

The T&G is doing 99% of F All as well - "Wait and See What BA Comes Back With!!!!" is their attitude - bloody ostriches!!! The T&G has arguably the biggest legal department and accountancy gurus of any Trade Union, yet BALPA is the one prepared to stand up and be counted!!!

I hope the other Unions remember to thank BALPA once a satisfactory result is concluded!!!

Anybody that knows Rainboe knows that he was one of the most vocal pilots in BA , commenting on the downturn in T & C's . Perhaps your flak would be better aimed at BACC who seem to want to do BA managements' job for them (with the odd militant exception) ?

bealine.. you have a proper if expensive trade union ..:)

Bealine,have faith my good colleague!!.
The T&G,in my case BASSA are ready for action,have no doubts.I applaud BALPA for leading the way but I can assure their members there is a large 'wake' of support to follow!!.

WTDWL.

I am not a BA pilot but I do not hate you. I sympathise with your plight. But as you talk of perspective it think some (ShortFInalFred) are losing theirs. Strike until BA is no more? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? If you go in angry and confrontational and emotional you will lose. Lose your benefits, lose your jobs, lose the livelihood that at least some of you must enjoy.

So think pragmatic and be pragmatic. That way you have half a chance.

Nicely put BigBrutha!

sugden,

Think of it this way. My T&Cs now give me reasonable pay, a reasonable lifestyle and a decent pension. If BA have their way and I do nothing, I will certainly lose the decent pension. Potentially lifestyle will be effected too if Bidline is targeted next.

If I strike and BA goes under, I am fortunate that I'll be able to get another flying job (possibly for BA2) where I should be able to achieve a similar level of pay and lifestyle (supply and demand), albeit without the decent pension. What do I have to lose by striking until the bitter end?

A lot less than our senior management.... ;)

Perhaps we need the previous posters on the BA BACC?

I think many people have a false of the Ts & Cs at BA. My friends at Virg have a much better deal when all things are considered. For an FO their pay is not too dis-simmilar, they work MUCH less hard and have staff travel we can only dream about. Not to mention the time to command ( 7 years against 20+). The days of BA captains with the Ferrari, boat and airoplane are rapidly going.

If I do nothing then BA will take over 35% of my pension and I will be left with Ts&Cs that can be matched or bettered elsewhere.

If I and my colleagues strike and BA goes under then I will lose what small amount of pension I have accrued, I would stand a very good chance of being employed by whoever fills the void (BA2 or whoever) on Ts&Cs that probably match what I'm on now and a pension that might be better than what BA are trying to do (look at a comparison of BARP and Virgin plan).

I can't really see the argument for moderate behaviour and compromise - what have I got to lose?

And if the worst comes to the worst (not my cup of tea really, but...) Emirates recently advertised for DE 777 Captains. Min req 3500 TT including Boeing glass cockpit command experience.

In The independent today, news about job cuts, new aircraft and the pension problem. Words direct from WW.

Questions as to why to adopt pragmatism.

Because your views of a post BA1 world are, I fear, too optimistic.

So BA don’t give you what you want, you strike, the airline collapses. Then what? You maybe lose all your pension rights, you get no redundancy, you get some of the current months’ salary owed to you if you’re lucky… and that’s it. Meanwhile, you still gotta pay the mortgage.

BA2 will rise from the ashes, sure, but it won’t be a clone of BA1. It will be smaller, nimbler, and there won’t be jobs for everyone in BA1. I can’t see into a crystal ball, but I would imagine that BA2 would drop some international routes, drop some European routes, maybe exit Gatwick completely, and end up a leaner meaner machine concentrating on high end business. That is the market niche where it delivers best value.

So how many pilots will they need? Don’t know, but with changing terms, a completely re-organised structure, perhaps significantly fewer than are currently on the payroll.

Sure, slots will be free at LHR and there will be a scramble to fill them, the lucky airlines then needing more drivers for the extra buses. And look, there are loads of them suddenly on the market! But if you have a choice between hiring someone from an Asian airline who has plenty of hours on type or an ex BA bloke who was so militant he broke the company, who will you go for? You’ll not be going into the market with shining reputations.

So I reckon in a post apocalyptic world some people will be employed by BA2, but by no means all. Some of you will be out on your backside and looking for new jobs. And don’t think that because you have a BA pedigree that they’ll be falling over themselves to have you. You’ll have just completed a thorough job of smashing the pedigree into tiny pieces.

I’m not saying don’t stand up and be counted. I am saying do it with caution and be careful. Be pragmatic. I don’t know the numbers we’re talking, but Flaps62 says 35% of his pension is at stake. So what if BA compromise at 20%? BA get some of what they want, you get to keep some of what they wanted. Do you go for that?

I can’t answer the question and, as I have said before, you have my sympathy. It’s a difficult question to answer and would surely leave a bad taste in the mouth. That’s where you need to be calm, level headed, unemotional. Just like a bad day at the office. Do not make the mistake of assuming you’ll be unscathed by the collapse of BA. Some of you will certainly be hit badly by the falling wreckage.

Think carefully before you go over the top.

Trouble is if we give one inch, they'll be back next week for more. Someone has to put a stake in the ground.

You have to meet these people to believe them, they absolutely will not stop until we're paying to come to work.

Funny how the 'deficit' increases as we go on. Now at £2Bn according to the Indie.
Independent actuaries employed by the TUs are more realistic and estimate it at somewhere between £500M and £800M.

So they have enough cash to 'invest' in the business by firming up 10 Boeing options but not to do the decent thing like Lufthansa and BAe and ensure the deferred pay is available to the staff!:mad:

And in the meantime don't forget to stick "Be Fair BA" stickers all over report centres, aircraft and airports in the meantime.

Last time I saw people doing that they were 12 years old and all got detention.

Hardly a proffesional way to add weight to your case guys:yuk:

Nice to see your union contributions are being put use as well:eek:

Or we could all Lie down like you? At least our TUs are doing something, remind me of what CC89 or BASSA have done for Cabin Crew at LGW?

As ground staff for BA I find much of this thread interesting as naturally it effects me as well, not that the Flt deck community has ever given a toss about anyone else, anyway, or the company. BA culture in fairness to them sees many areas of work being every man and woman for themselves and little has changed despite vast sums spent on teaching new cultures in my 30 plus years. However, I have yet to see the pilot community lead any type of industrial action as they have always bottled it after getting a few concessions. If this should be your chosen course of action then good luck to you but as some have stated you would probably be back with BA2 with worse conditions? I sympathise also that one day sees your role as senior managers culture and attitude and the next day you are as militant as terminal 1 loaders.

BA will never go completely bust. We owe too much money to Airbus, Boeing, leasing companies, BAA etc etc. Once the share price gets to a certain level and doomsday looms all the major creditors, other airlines (LH, AF, IB etc) will put there collective hands on their pockets and buy out a majority stake. WW out on his ar$e, negotiate ANY settlement and get the airline running again.

Particularly with all our 744 the leasing cos will be DESPERATE for us to keep flying them otherwise they'll have to park 'em in the desert. With 40% of the slots, nearly 10% achieved margin we will not be allowed by the money men to go bust.

BA2 will never happen as BA1 will never cease to exist!

ATB

BigBrutha,

"CSDs silver badge allowance"

Please enlighten me as to what this is.

HZ123, jees there you go again.................... Need to get out your airless windowless room in braincrank a bit more:mad: :mad: :mad:

Your view of both the pilots and their attitude towards the airline seems to be based upon the gossip you hear in the canteen:yuk:

I can assure you that from where I sit the pilots are in no way shape or form treated any differently to any other front line BA employee. To sum up like most people on the front line (and not stuck in braincrank) we are treated with the utmost contempt by our managers, AMP/EG300 used as stick to beat people with and intimidate them , told to shut up and get on with it when we wait 50 mins for a bus after being on duty for 16 hours, consistently undermined by an overzealous management whom can't see beyond their next bonus.Oh and one General manager has taken it upon themselves to write to pilots if they are more than 2 mins late through security, does'nt matter if there was a complicated brief etc.:E :E

The pension issue may be the "straw that broke the camels back”:ok:

That takes me back to the days when CSDs wanted to be second-in-command of the aeroplane.

Ah - happy days ...

Trouble is nowadays, even nostalgia's not what it used to be ......

Da Dog

For £6 a month I have to be honest I don't expect wonders, but if I was paying what you are paying (somewhere between £30 - £70 per month I suspect) I'd want that to be put to better use than a load of stickers to make the place look untidy.

As for what have C.C. reps done at LGW?

Well for a start they negiotiated Cityflyer cabin crew to fit in with seniority and rank with EOG cabin crew. Unlike Cityflyer pilots who went to the bottom of the seniority list.

No 4 sector days in the middle of trips.

12 hours wrap around rest around days off.

Breakfast still included on all nightstops.

If you like I'll add to the list once the Singlefleet negotiations are finished.


I'm sure for all that money your reps are doing a sterling job for all that money YOUR paying, I'm wonder how many will join BA management just like RH did when this is all over.:ok:

And don't forget to reorder your stickers once the FM Team have wasted man hours scraping them off door handles and lift doors.:E

I hope you guys get what you want. I really do. As the group of people who have most to loose I'd be suprised if you didn't.

But as HZ123 quite rightly says, as managers yourselves shouldn't you be acting like managers, instead of a load of French lorry drivers.:confused:

I suspect that if they had behaved a little more like French lorry drivers in the past they would not now find their T&Cs falling back towards the rest of the industry.

You're not comparing apples with apples, I'm afraid. All BA pilots irrespective of their fleet or base are on one seniority list. Cabin crew aren't. I would imagine there would have been a mutiny had the Cityflyer cabin crew joined the main crew list and gone straight onto LHR Worldwide.

Having said that, BALPA negotiated an agreement to allow a number of Cityflyer captains to transfer to the 737 as captains even though their seniority was nowhere near enough. The only condition being that if they bid to leave the fleet, they revert to the same deal as everyone else.

WLITS lets face it if you’re best argument is to bring the RH debacles into the debate then you've lost already. (By the way I did very well out of that deal):p

Let’s face it and with no disrespect to you or anyone at LGW, you are the worst paid crew within BA doing the hardest work. EJ crew work less and earn more, if this is CC89 and BASSA at their best then I don't hold out much hope for midfleet deal, I predict you will be the cheapest long haul crew in the UK, but we will just have to wait and see. You forget LGW still not in the NSP despite that being on the agenda for the last 8 years.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The stickers, well it’s just a bit of fun, and from what I hear from the horse’s mouth something that has got the management in a right lather. Even the lanyards have met with a notice explaining to pilots that they are NOT uniform standards. Why can't people see the "sticker" campaign for what it is? I thought perhaps you were brighter than that.;) :eek: :confused:

You bought up the fact we were managers, I see where you come from however, from where I sit we are "managers" when it suits the company (work into discretion turn up early to brief the cabin crew) and we are not "managers" when it doesn’t (managers bonus), perhaps when the sloppy shoulders all I worry about is my budget brigade treat pilots like the managers they pretend we are then we might stop the sticker campaigned. Until then vote me in to be a french lorry driver.:ok:

At least you admit it was a shambles.:ok:

Yeah we work hard for the least pay in the company, but still it's better than anyone else in the UK when you factor in all the T&C's. You don't see many of our crew leaving to join EZ do you? They may take home a litttle more sometimes, but I assure you 6 sectors days aren't my cup of tea.

You can predict all you want as well but in a few days we'll all see. It would be diffeicult to be any worse than the T&C's and pay at Virgin.

You defend your stickers all you want, if all you've got is "they're just a bit of fun" and then attack me personally.....then you've lost the argument already (to coin a phrase):E .

WLITS, sorry did the;) :eek: :confused: lead you to believe I was getting personal? There was a clue in the icons;) :{ :uhoh:

I'm sorry you feel so strongly about the stickers, but then I assumed you had more to worry about in life, oh I forgot it was the impending imposition of the worst long haul pay in the UK:}

When is your next CRM 'refresher', Doggie?:*

Walter flt lt since I'm bored I'll indulge:mad: :mad:

It seems to me that when people don't like what they hear, or the fact that the truth may hurt, they bring out the "CRM" issue, CRM FYI is about working effectivley together, its not about treading around on egg shells or being touchy feely towards one another:p :p :{

Just as an aside I know WLITS and I suspect he knows me, so do me a favour and wind your whingeing kneck in:mad: :mad: :mad:

More to worry about? Not really.

The way you guys are talking on here it would appear it is you who have more to worry about.

My problem with the stickers is they belong on flight bags, folders, car windows. Not on aircraft, the jetty or anywhere else that makes us all like a bunch of childish millitants. But french lorry drivers will be french lorry drivers I guess;) .

As for the lowest paid longhaul in the UK, we'll wait and see. But as you and your collegues like to bang on about so much the only thing keeping you at BA is the pension, otherwise you'd all be knocking on Dick Pickles door or flying out to the gulf quicker than you can say "I love Wille Walsh". My point being that monthly pay is not everything, it's also T&C's, and quality of life.:ooh:

I'd still bet we'd be better paid than Virgin, or First Choice.:yuk:

P.S. Flt lt W Mitty.

Thanks for the support but we're only playing here. We know each other and it's nothing we wouldn't say to each other over a cold beer. That's the great thing about EFLGW despite everything we're a little family and we all get along and have a blast.

Flying is fun at the end of the day and long may it stay that way eh Dog?:ok:

Still friends?;)

__________________;)

Methinks Barnstormer et al are being rather optimistic in believing that if BA fails, BA2 will quickly rise from the ashes and employ everyone back in their old positions.

Firstly the slots will be up for purchase to the highest bidder:

If you are lucky, Virgin and other companies will buy many of the slots from the receivers and ex BA pilots will be able to find work at the bottom of their seniority lists.

If you are unlucky, the Americans will raise the cash and operate the slots with N registered aircraft for which you will not be qualified by licence or Nationality.

Secondly, if the receivers manage to continue the operation whilst they restructure, this will be on a much smaller scale and cost basis that the present operation. It won't be a take-over where your terms and conditions are protected.

Perhaps half a loaf....?

Get BALPA to push for removal of senority in all UK companies and encourage free movement of pilots between companies. If your company is shafting you then you can move to a company with better T's and C's. This would lead to companies having to compete more for there workforce.

I am in buisness aviation and our company after talking up tough attitudes to the pilots is now talking about improvements to conditions as 75% of us are job hunting.

Also an advert in pilot each month explaining the cost of undertaking a career in aviation and the current returns might restrict the numbers coming in and allow market forces to push up T's and C's.

I hope it goes well for you at BA. It would be nice if pilots in the UK could show some unity but it must work both ways and when you get to the top try and look after those lower down the ladder.

It doesn't help when a lot of pilots treat the job as a paid hobby rather than a means of paying the mortgage. Some pilots are their own worst enemies.

As jindabyne points out in an earlier thread, one other major British plc which faced an equally large pension problem has found a solution that is acceptable to both staff and Company alike.

Obviously not all situations are the same, but this problem was resolved with an interesting package which included a large injection of both cash and property assets plus other financial guarantees from the Company.

The final salary scheme is preserved for all current members - new starters now have a different scheme. Employees recognised a need to work longer (talking about months not years) to retain final salary benefits, but are not being asked for increased contributions.

Do not work for BA but am regular SLF on both long and short haul sectors. Clear to me, when talking to cc during flights, that the number one concern for many is pension. There is obviously no easy answer, but perhaps your TU reps could look to AMICUS, which negotiated the deal mentioned above, for some support and assistance. On the face of it at least, there would seem to be a number of similarities between BA and the other British aerospace (and defence) company.

Good luck to all.

Maxy101 - There are not many jobs where you have Sim. checks, health checks that we have to go through just to keep up our 'Hobby'. To me its my chosen livelihood and it took me many years to get into the seat. Yes, some FC are their own worst enemy, but you'll find examples in all walks of life. T & C's have been eroded away and how far does it have to fall before we're paid 'hobby' salaries. :confused:

Exactly Darkstar....unfortunately listening to some of my colleagues, you would think that they had another means of support and weren't paying their bills from their BA salary. The Americans have got it right when they say that the management are "taking food from the mouths of my children". We need to stop pussy footing around and acting like gentlemen or "professionals" because around the negotiating table with BA it doesn't count for anything. Hence BASSA and the TGWU have historically got better deals because the company know that it will cost them more money than they would save if they push them too far. BALPA will bend over backwards to help the company, though I do detect a glimmer of hope judging by recent BALPA comms. Perhaps they're starting to listen to the membership?

Pensions reprimand for government
The government has been told to compensate 85,000 people who have lost all or part of their company pensions.

The Parliamentary Ombudsman, Ann Abraham, made the ruling after finding the Department for Work & Pensions (DWP) guilty of maladministration. She said official guidance on company pension schemes had been "inaccurate, incomplete, unclear and inconsistent".

The government has rejected the report, saying it cannot be held responsible for corporate pension schemes.


Full story: BBC News So the subject is very much in the headlines and this should mean that the general public are already aware of the problem in general.

Paxboy. I fear on this subject you are wrong. My interpretation of what was said is that the government is sorry that it happened but effectively Joe Public Pensions can get lost.