Good Luck to ya, pilots!!!

I wish our ground staff unions were as strong-willed but with lasy years's Gate Gourmet fiasco, they've now lost 90% of their power!!!

Our Pensions are a DEBT - in exactly the same way as we have to pay for leasing our aeroplanes and pay for catering and fuelling, the company owes us the deficit in our pension! BA was entrusted with the job of managing our pension fund - it didn't do a good enough job so it's BA and no-one else that is responsible!!!

It's interesting to note that Continental recently sold its share of COPA airlines and ploughed the US$ 50 million into its pension fund because CO sees it as a contractual duty to make good the black hole in its fund! Why hasn't BA done that with the proceeds from "Go" and, more recently "Mr London Eye"???

The only reservation I have is that every situation we have had in the last 10 years involving industrial unrest has ended up with the employees being shafted!!!

.....BUT I DO WANT MY PENSION SALVAGED!!!!

Blueprint
 

In reply to Norodnik.
I think the reality is just sinking in with BA. Your Q1 gave the answer that is causing BA the problem. They can not get out of that financial hole, whilst trading as BA. I do not think that doomsday situation is at all likely, so what can they do?
They can negotiate future terms but not the past. That is what your reps are elected to do. I have several thoughts on the way ahead but I have no intention of helping W/W on this open forum.
An employer needs the goodwill of its staff, this it will not get unless it acts in a reasonable manner.
My son works for bmi and they have recently changed their pension arrangements, (sucessfully I believe). I do not believe their deficit is so dire as BA's but then a company (BA) which takes a long term pension holiday, plays "ducks & drakes", on setting up NAPS needs to realise where the blame lies. If you failed to pay your mortgage for a number of years, you would soon get into major financial difficulties.
So yes, all have to move forward, but that does not mean that the staff have to be shafted. If they are then the airline will have major long term trouble.

Thank you bealine, that neatly takes us full circle to my initial posting!

From

http://today.reuters.co.uk/Investing...IRLINES-BA.xml

LONDON (Reuters) - British Airways, Europe's third-largest airline, said on Friday third-quarter operating profit rose 29 percent, ahead of expectations, after strong passenger numbers helped offset rising fuel bills.

The airline (BAY.L: Quote, Profile, Research) slightly raised its revenue forecast but warned costs would be higher than expected and reported lower average passenger fares in the quarter as it discounted seats to keep planes full.

"The results are slightly above consensus but on the other hand there are some not too good things in it," BNP Paribas analyst Nick van den Brul said, pointing to falling yields and costs.

Operating profit for the three months to end-December was 175 million pounds, compared to 136 million pounds a year ago.

Analysts had expected the airline to post an operating profit of 164 million pounds, according to the average from a poll of eight analysts by Reuters.

BA said pretax earnings were 164 million pounds compared to 151 million pounds a year ago.

A recovery in first and business class, or premium, traffic and new international routes to India and Shanghai helped BA keep planes full, while ticket prices stabilised in the period.

Passenger yields -- or average passenger fares -- fell 1.5 percent in the quarter but were expected to be slightly higher for the year, BA said. It forecast 8 percent revenue growth for the current year compared to a previous forecasts of 6-7 percent.

"Despite the improved revenue outlook, market conditions remain broadly unchanged as significant promotional activity is required to maintain seat factors," Chairman Martin Broughton said in a statement.

However, costs excluding fuel would be one percent higher than earlier forecasts, Broughton said. Labour costs are rising due to higher pension contributions and the one-off cost of a cut in senior management jobs at the carrier.

BA also reported a 3.3 rise in January passenger traffic.

Talk about looking after their own, golden hand-shakes all round. Instead of paying-off a bunch of idiots they should have invested the money in our pensions.

Lots of questions about pension strikes from the city on the BA webcast today at 2pm.

WW set a positive tone saying he didn't expect industrial action and was confident of reaching agreement, all staff now aware that change is needed!

WW expects agreement on pensions post March before the Acturial Valuation is published Sept/Oct. Interestingly someone on the Board commented that the valuation might be delayed. This is not legally possible unless there are extenuating circumstances, I presume (retirement legislation/strike?).

Also the employee bonus has not been factored into this years figures unlike last. Any significance to this I wonder?

All in all WW gave the city a positive and frank report. Must be reassuring standing there with good financial figures achieved through the hard work of your professional and safe pilots and other hard working employees. Would be awful if there was a loss of confidence by the work force and the figures started turning red.

One thing missing from the above posts is that debt has been reduced by £744M since the beginning of the year, :)

Where did you hear that one yotts???

Irrelevant - debt repayments are planned when the aircraft are purchased; pension defecits are not planned.

Equally you could argue that £x has been spent on fuel, but that too is central to the operation.

The key to the argument that it is deferred pay and - irrelevant of whether or not BA management could foresee the eventual cost to them with rising lifespans and lowering interest rates - it has been fairly promised and negotiated by past pay settlements.

Although I take issue with the many misleading arguments presented in this and other threads, such as the fact that many of the younger generation do not have the pensions that NAPS offers and that it is protected behind a unionised negotiation which impacts upon the competitive edge of the company - it is still something that was willingly promised from 1981 until around 2003 when it closed to new members, and therefore must be settled by negotiation taking into account the fact that it was not only promised, but many, through being locked into seniority, have planned their retirement upon those contractual promises.

HI there LP, got it from the Intranet on the News page; click on Q3 Results; Click on Detailed Results and it's about half way down ;)

BBC Reporting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4697766.stm

Yes, please borrow lots so you can stay on strike a long time. That will give the company lots of time to check out me and others for the new BA2.com.
:)

Unfortunately for you Fly747, BA 1 has to go bust before BA 2 can start. Once BA 2 starts, they will have to recruit most of the pilots from BA 1 (about a third of UK airline pilots), who are all current and type-rated. Admittedly, the terms will be marginally worse than those offered by BA 1, and with a DC pension, but that is the gamble we are taking.

Fly747, it's your choice, but I would think very carefully before I condemned myself to a life being known as a SCAB.

Usual management spin
 

According to the BBC :

By my reckoning 14,000 is about 33% of the workforce. I believe there were fewer than 4000 responses to the MORI poll. It would be quite nice to see the survey questions and responses published. Doesn't sound like an overwhelming majority in favour of cutting their own benefits to provide lovely management benefits.

I know BA aren't alone in this but it's a bit sad that our management can't think of anything more creative than cutting staff costs to boost profits. Although costs are plainly an issue perhaps something radical like selling more tickets might help.

Yup, I'm with you guys. Lets hope our ground staff unions are a bit less supine than usual.

It shows very poor management by the airline and the pension trustees to allow any deficit at all. The hole, which first started to appear many years ago and is now getting bigger due to some external factors, should have been tackled immediately.
Money, once in the pension fund receives very favourable tax treatment. So, the name of the game is to keep on top of the liabilities. Defering payments to future years just means that the money has to be earned from the business, various taxes paid and then what's left (if any) paid into the scheme.
The recent 'Economist' has an article describing how the clever companies actually slightly overfund their pension schemes because it is good from a tax management point of view. Of course this all assumes that the company accepts that it has a liability to pay pensions as promised - and BA I suspect doesn't actually believe it has a debt they have to honour.There are limits (from a tax saving point of view) to how much a scheme is allowed to be overfunded (I think only about 5%). Indeed this is one reason why so many schemes that were in surplus during the 90s had pension holidays. The government was happy to tax the surplus at the time, but now is not interested in giving any relief/assistance when assets are below 95% of liabilities. In fact all the government has done is to compound the problems by not allowing dividend relief and by bringing in onerous regulation and supervision.
In short, BA needs to face up to its responsibilities for pensions accrued to date. As for future accrual rates for the existing scheme - well that should be for negotiation and the pilots will have to do/give their bit to get an acceptable solution.

It is good that you mention the part that the government has played in this sorry affair. It is undeniable that not all of this problem is of BA's own making. I am sure that voters will remember this come the next election.

It doesn't look as if Gordon Brown will ever be Prime Minister after all!

B.A.strike action
 

L&G
please please go on strike and screw the wonderfull over paid B A managers and dare I say "cabin crew". After 32 years in Bloody Awfull ( I joke )the only people who win are the BALPA reps.Where is wonder boy Rob Hall ? Still in his new management role !!
Look at BALPA history they all move into Ayling island. Go for it Nigels.
p.s. no I dont have a huge pen...................................................:ok:

You BA people really crack me up.

To say that 20% of pilots in NAPS will leave if the pension is touched is just plain sh1te.

Where will you go? To all the other airlines that offer ridiculously large and unsustainable pensions?

I think you will find that NOT A SINGLE AIRLINE in the UK offers a final salary scheme for new joiners from day one anymore.

Add to that, wages are lower in just about every other airline in the UK than BA's wages.

You lot are just not facing the realities..... you need to meet BA in the middle. i.e much higher contributions from the employee to guarantee a final salary pension.

I expect to have to do something similar in my final salary scheme in the not too distant future..........unfortunate but true and perhaps realistic.

Don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg..............

You may be right that pilots won't suddenly leave. However Pilots may not join the bottom quite so quickly and transfers across from other airlines may well dry up. In addition morale will be shot to pieces and it won't be pleaseant to work for BA if the pension is nicked.

This Golden egg thing is rubbish - yes I am proud to work for BA and I am very lucky. However at the end of the day we are a company like anyone else. The arrogance that we are somehow the best is not true in many respects (although it is true in some).

The "Golden egg" will be somewhat tarnished if the pension goes, so see my first point.

Ornithopter

People will always join BA. What you do not realise (already being on the inside) is that you are well rewarded by industry standards.

There are many many airlines who work damn close to your 850 hours a year and get nowhere near the pay you lot do. Not to mention the healthcare, travel perks etc etc.

There will never be a shortage of applicants to BA. Admittedly, you may not attract people from First Choice, Thomas Cook, Monarch etc etc any more, but you will ALWAYS attract people from other smaller airlines.

And what's more, these people don't care about your final salary pensions.

Sad but true.

In the meantime, I wish you well in your negotiations with management.

stan,

The point is not that 20% of us will go to airlines offering "ridiculously large and unsustainable" pensions. I disagree that NAPS FSS is unsustainable anyway, however as you say, there aren't really any other companies offering a similar package.

If the NAPS Final Salary pension goes from BA, very few of us will be prepared to put up with the cr*p that is BA's LHR operation for a deal which will have become equivalent to what we can get elsewhere.

Stansdead

If all these pilots are queuing up to join BA then why have they had to drop the experience requirements from a type rating on 744,777 or 320 to just 400 hours on any large aircraft? Why are they calling up people who were rejected last year and asking them to have another go. Why are they having to place the 200hr SSPs at LGW because DEPs are refusing to join if they go there? Why are the ex-bmi guys in A position that they can insist on long haul or they won't join?

I think you overestimate the number of experienced pilots who are willing to give up jobs and potential commands in regional based airlines to move or commute to the LHR area and spend 10+ years in the right hand seat. The lions share of the DEP intake has come from bmi and My Travel, people who were already based in the South East. Once that supply is exhausted then what next?

What next? DECs ala EK! That's the only way I'd join.

You'd still have to think twice. Several Captains at LGW have gone back RHS to get some work/life balance back despite the pay cut of circa £15k p.a. Until recently I never considered such a move, but I think about it more and more seriously on a daily basis now. The only thing holding me back at the moment it the fear of a career average pension scheme, which would make it important to stay LHS despite the crappy lifestyle at LGW.

I don't think that DE LH Captains would happen in BA like it is happening in EK.

BA strike
 

Ola L&G
stop moaning,:yuk: you all voted for Rob Hall's new "wonderfull world" in 2003 even though old gits like myself said no- for christs sake even C.G. was telling you to say yes. You have got what you voted for "CRAP" and Rob Hall became a nonflying manager. Sort BALPA out before it really screws you!!!

Hi all,

Whats the latest?????

Are we still gonna have a pension at the end of the day??

Love

LP

BA CC attitudes
 

xnigelinrealwold has hit the proverbial nail square on the head.

BA CC BALPA, with the odd exception, is full of self interested, self promoting ar*e holes, who with their luddite attitudes and desire to preserve their own golden egg, are shafting the rest of the pilot workforce. Just look at the new pension scheme.

New pay deal . . . look who benefited most from that? New SH Captains?

Ts & Cs have been erroded to such an extent that we are no longer an industry leader, as we once were. Who's to blame? BASSA? Just look what a strong union has done for the other side of the flight deck door.

For those of you in the CC who swan about the place as psudo managers, please do the community the best service you can and just disappear.:mad:

Rant over - I feel slightly less frustrated.

edited due typically poor spelling

It's rather a strange suggestion, that the BALPA reps should voluntarily quit their posts because you don't agree with them.

They were obviously voted into their positions by the majority of company pilots (that bothered to vote) and can be voted out in the same way.

But let me guess...you don't believe in voting-just sniping from the sidelines?

Compulsory work to rule, roster instability, no bidding on longhaul, loss of the CSD on the A321, inadequate and antiquated rostering systems, new contract pay rates, BARPS for new entrants, temporary contract cabin crew sent directly to long haul whilst permanent staff are forced to wait their turn, inferior hotels and earlier pick-up times downroute, AMP, a complete lack of action or leadership to defend their members NAPS pensions and lots and lots of opinionated hot air in a poorly written monthly rag they have the audacity to call BASSA News which blames BA managers and the 'flight deck' for all their woes. I think the record of that so-called strong union speaks for itself.

Mini - mums.

You might be right about a small number of the reps, but rather than voting them out, why aren't you standing yourself.

Have you ever served as a rep or do you intend putting yourself forward as a staff rep? If not, please try and be more constructive and rather than complaining on here, at least put some time into supporting and helping those reps that you do trust.

The BACC (British Airways Company Council within big BALPA) is expecting the company to present the unions with there ideas 'by the end of March' which is also what the Publicly accesible BASHARES website states.

Let the fun begin. Not

:O :O :O :O := := := :O :O :O ;) ;) ;) ;)

thanks for that, was getting a bit depressed about the state of my pension, t&c's etc etc etc and then u gave me the image of you sitting at 'york int' with a a name like 'fly 747' waiting for a dec. :ok:

cheers mate, i'm feeling better already.

What a load of total cr@p so-called professional aviation has become. The sheer bitterness of the "you dont live in the real world" squad has to be seen to be believed - just read it here for a full flavour.
The facts are simple. BA pilots signed a contract with NAPS and Bidline as the bedrock of it. If I wanted an early command and to come home at night more often than not at work I would have joined a charter company on a shorthaul fleet. If BA remove either of these two bedrock items then I and the rest of us will strike until BA ceases to exist. Sure, after that come on down and "nick our jobs" - coz you'll fly for food, or coz you hate us, or coz its a bigger plane, and you still hate us, or WHAT-ever. I for one dont give a flying you know what anymore. BA is a chaotic shambles led by liars and cheats (Hi R@b) who would sell their Grandmother for a dime. Take my damn "job" and enjoy it. There are other things to do in life than swim in the cesspool of self-righteousness you lot dish up. What do you think we should do - ASK BA for a pay cut?

You are so riven by hatred you cant see that, like it or not, the BA contract sets a benchmark for the UK industry to negotiate to. Yeah, that's right, keep doing your own management's jobs for them by lambasting our T's and C's - think that's going to improve yours? DO YOU? C'MON, dumbasses, DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT? Ah, who cares what you think! '!!!! the lot of yer', as O'Roiiley would say. What a stupid industry this has become. Roll on sanity and the chance to do something else, soon I suspect, but by God before then I and the rest of us who were recruited on a contract will see BA dead in the dust.

My o my and you call yourselves professionals.

d246? And you are? A professional whinger from the sidelines? A person of snide observations and no spine? Its not "professional" to defend your contract is it it not? I guess that makes most of the UK's dentists "unprofessional" for refusing their proposed new contracts? Ah, I forget, they are "real" professionals are they? And flying an airliner full of real live people is analagous to driving the number 42 bus down the Clapham High Road isn't it? Hardly worthy of pay, let alone a pension to live on at retirement? We will defend our contracts until BA is broke if needs be - I no longer care what you or anyone else thinks of that straightforward proposition - or whether you think that is "professional" or not. And as for the sc@m who dare call themselves a "leadership team" who stand to personally profit in an obscene way by this act of highstreet robbery - good luck managing the aftermath of the strike - you'll need it.

'Fred, threads like this remind me of the unforgettable 'Let's all take a swing at BA for operating a flight continuation policy' (engine out ex LAX for those that need reminding). In the interests of taking a sledgehammer to BA, or in this case, BA pilots, all logic flies out of the window. All that matters is being able to slip that stiletto in on whatever issue annoys these people. In this case it is jealousy of lifestyle, equipment, career whatever!

I find no logic or reason to argue these things anymore. They are more interested in swinging their particular aggressions than indulging in a 2-way conversation. I actually think it better not to give them a forum now, or reason to come back with the same crap because you have discussed a point. With the impending approach of positive and aggressive action which will get these people up and buzzing like a hornets nest being attacked, I think it is advisable to stick to BALPA and ignore what is being said outside- from experience there is no discussion- it is just trumpet your anti-BA/anti-BA pilot prejudices to as many people as you can!

Your quite right Rainboe, absolutely. Thanks for the perspective. I'll save future energy for the events ahead.

rainboe,

just wanted to thank you for the bang on job you did protecting our t&c's when u where on watch!

if all u retired aps barons had fought a half decent fight against the loss of status in the company over the last 30 years then maybe the 'youngsters' like myself wouldn't be facing such a difficult fight. every time some hamble gent (almost all of whom i enjoy flying with greatly by the way) moans about lack of status etc etc just b4 telling me how much they have waiting for them when they go i am amazed that they don't see the irony of their position.

you sir deserve every penny of your pension. i grudge you not a cent. just wish you'd fought for the cheese board a bit harder:O

enjoy.

ps feel free to tell me i shouldn't be posting on this forum, or that my spelling is beneath that expected of a child etc etc:ok: